What will it do to their image esp. in states like California( environ sensitive ) states, esp. when makers like toyota, honda are coming up hybrids..........
I essentially agree, Colin. This was a case of "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".
Subaru has been limited in how much power they can offer with their AWD lineup because of CAFE, plus they can't tint windows on the Forester and Outback, while trucks can. Yet most are bought by the same consumers and used for the same purposes.
The work truck loophole is outdated and needs to be phased out. Slowly only so manufacturers can manage it.
The problem? Well, Subaru has been toting the fact that their lineup is all cars, so now they could look a little hypocritical. OK, to the 3 people that care, but still.
PS Honda has hybrids, so what? Pilot, Odyssey, CR-V, and Element are all car-based yet exploit this loophole, not to mention sell in probably 100 times the volume of the Civic hybrid...
really think that automakers have been bowing to the agenda of "environuts"? Seems to me things have been going in the opposite direction for quite some time. Subaru is just the most recent example. The "loophole" has now become the standard practice for the auto industry, and it's not likely to change because both parties have constituents that benefit from it.
Similarly, our system of mileage requirements is far from extreme---and the EPA is far from powerful or unchecked. Just look at what happened to the last few EPA heads.
yeah I guess I never really understood the idea of the Outback Sedan. "Let me get this straight--you want to take a wilderness trip, but you don't need any more than 2 small backpacks?" Hmm...
"Or, I want the look of an SUV, but none of the utility." Both seem like pretty small markets to me. Although I think someone here has one--I think Ralph or Otis I can't remember. Maybe they can share as to why they bought it.
Yeah, I could care less what they call it as long as it's a good'un!
I am very, very disappointed to hear that a navigation system won't be offered on the 2005 Legacy GT (in fact you have no idea how disappointed I am!)
I have been reading the posts from other members and their concern about how adding these features would raise the MSRP. However I think Subaru has done a good job productizing their offerings for the UK and was wondering why they don't do something similar here. I am trying to show equivalent models, the spec don't necessarily match:
UK -------------- US === ------------- === 2.0i ------------ 2.5i 2.0i S ---------- 2.5i Limited
2.5i ------------ 2.5 GT 2.5i SE --------- 2.5 GT Limited 2.5i SEn (nav)--- 2.5 GT Limited n????
3.0R ------------ Will we get the 3.0 or only on outback? 3.0Rn (nav)------ Will we get the 3.0 or only on outback?
This allows the MSRP of the 2.5 GT and GT Ltd to be competitive yet still allow Subaru to offer expensive extras like the nav system. This is also similar to the Honda Accord with the LX, EX Leather and the EX Leather with Nav.
I know a number of people have mentioned after market solutions. However I like the way a factory nav is integrated with other features such as the trip computer, check system etc. From auto-report.net:
"A highly luminous, 7-inch touch-panel LCD with a DVD navigation system is available as a factory option. In addition to navigation functions, its multi-information display functions include instantly available mileage calculation and car maintenance check lists through the use of the in-car LAN network."
May be I just like my toys, even the most pointless ones. From BBC's Topgear:
"The 3.0R features a small binnacle of digital read-outs, rather in the style of the Nissan Skyline GTR's, and including an acceleration meter. This seems like good fun at first, as the achieved level of shove is displayed as a percentage of that available and, obviously, the object quickly becomes to hit 100 per cent every time.
Trouble is, you can become fixated on it at the very moment when you should be looking at the road; ie when giving it the berries. Develop an obsession with the voltmeter instead - it never moves so it's much safer."
Pointless maybe, but I still like to have them. I guess my only consideration would be if they offer a retro fit nav system that looks like the factory system. It's offered in Japan...
I don't think they've been bowing to environmentalists, but they have certainly been influenced by them. Subaru did advertise the "all cars" lineup for a while, but I guess that stopped with the Baja.
I do think it would be grossly unfair for the Saturn Vue to get a pass while the Forester XT is forced to pay CAFE penalties, when efficiency for both is roughly similar. It's absurd, some to think of it.
I'm sure that was Subaru's thinking.
Nav: I bet the Outback will get it. If it's popular, surely it'll spread to the Legacy lineup. I bet that will happen, maybe for MY2006.
Hi everyone. I just got back in from Detroit last night after spending a day at the show.
I'll write up a longer report later with pix, but I just wanted to briefly share my impressions.
I was disappointed with the Subaru booth. Both the Legacy GT wagon and sedan were there but they were fenced off and towards the rear and sides of the booth. The most anyone could do was reach over the railing and open and close the doors. That's it.
The display, in my opinion, was not worthy of a new product intro. The WRX sedans at the front of the booth towards the walkway was getting more attention than the new Legacys! Only those in the "know" were ogling the Legacy around the fence.
I had to beg and plead with the floor staff there to let me and my brother sit in the GT wagon. Apparently, they had reversed the decision to allow people into the vehicles. Luckily, the staff caved into my repeated pleas (and my truthful story that I flew in just from California to see this model) and allowed us in as long as we were "supervised".
The power to the GT was completely disconnected so I could not see anything of the instrument cluster, center console or headlights. Major disappointment. C'mon guys, at least hardwire the vehicles to keep the displays and lights going and stick a flourescent tube in the vehicle!
My impressions of the new Legacy -- looks very sleek and more substantial than the outgoing model -- all the things juice and Bob reported back. However, I don't know if it was the presentation, the lack of enthusiasm from the floor staff or the fact that none of the electrical systems were on, but my excitement kind of faded after getting there. All this after entering the show floor right when it opened, making a beeline for the Subaru booth with my heart pounding with anticipation.
No Legacy 2.5i to be seen.
The suprise winner in my book was the Volvo S40 sedan/V50 wagon. I thought this vehicle looked great in person. Part of it had to do with a more enthusiastic booth staff all ready with information on prices and the ability to sit and compare various trims (all with electrical power ON). The vehicle has presense and it's stats and preliminary review by C&D (see Feb '04 issue) are promising. 6-speed manual with a 5-cylinder turbo with 236ft. lbs of torque from 1500rpm with all the Volvo saftey features. The only downside is that it's a tad narrower than the Legacy, is probably not as much a driver's car and may be more expensive with all the options.
In closing, before Detroit I was 101% sure the Legacy GT was going to be my next vehicle. Now, I have some second thoughts and will probably look into the V50 a little more.
even without flying to a car show, the fact that your showing such great interest by going to a car show, should allow you to check out a car like you would in a show room.
My wife has a 00 OB sedan which she loves to drive. She didn't want a wagon and wanted a locking trunk, and we wanted the road clearance of an OB for the snow. She wishes the car were a bit bigger so people sitting in the back wouldn't feel cramped and misses the fold-down split rear seat of her prior car. She's thinking about an 05 and has refused to move to a non-Subaru even though we've had problems with the local dealer.
Not everyone will be thrilled if they drop the Outback sedan, but 8%?
The wagon would address her no-folding-seats concern. Without those she might have gone elsewhere anyway.
I still say they should drop the sedan. It would make Subaru more unique and surely generate less controvery in the press (even if only 3 people actually care).
times article. I'll let you all know what I learn. As an aside "not official SOA comment (insert disclaimer here - just a Patti thought), I would be very surprised to learn that we backed off on meeting "passenger car safety standards". If anything, maybe we will end up exceeding "Light Truck standards"?
I know that back in the '80's, we were really involved with classification issues. Back then, if the vehicle had 4WD or AWD, it automatically became a "multi-purpose" vehicle with a different set of rules.
More to come, but should I post what I learn here or in the Cafe'?
That can certainly be done, in fact lots of light trucks meet passenger car standards but still aren't certified that way. Mercedes M class, for instance.
Patti: I think if the info relates to the future Outback specifically, then post it here.
If it's more about Subaru's general strategy/thinking, then Cafe. Just my 2 cents'.
know a number of people have mentioned after market solutions. However I like the way a factory nav is integrated with other features such as the trip computer, check system etc. From auto-report.net:
"A highly luminous, 7-inch touch-panel LCD with a DVD navigation system is available as a factory option. In addition to navigation functions, its multi-information display functions include instantly available mileage calculation and car maintenance check lists through the use of the in-car LAN network."
I much prefer a nicely integrated factory unit to an aftermarket unit.
I agree, the V50/S50 are extremely nice cars. The V40's rear roof, however lacks headroom. I do think these will go head-to-head with the Legacy. They are a tad smaller, however. Also, according to the brochures, they are not offered with a manual tranny, at least not yet.
Did you just fly out for the show, or did you have business in Detroit?
I can understand why SoA leaving the navigation unit out to keep costs in check. I do think it should be made available as a dealer installed option, though.
Ken: Interesting observation about the S40/V50. They're going to be built on the next-generation Ford Focus platform IIRC? I wonder if that will have any impact on public perception of them.
In all fairness, the platform (C1) was a joint venture and development by Mazda/Ford/Volvo. So its not like it was developed for the Focus and then borrowed for the Mazda3 and S40/V50. It was intended from the beginning to be used in all 4 cases (and then, of course, it will be used on others in the future).
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
I would also ask why I'm paying premium prices for what is essentially a Focus. The same could be said for people who would consider buying a Jaguar X-type and are getting a gussied-up Mondeo. Of course since that car (as Contour/Mystique) is no longer offered here it may not be as big an issue for FoMoCo.
At first I was disappointed that they gave in to the "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em crowd" but economically they really don't have a choice. I see this as a chance to change the product to "better" serve the market and the desire of current Subaru owners.
Maybe now I can get my "Adventure Package"! An inch more ground clearance - check. Slightly larger tires - maybe. Better approach / departure angles - hopefully. Low range - doubt it. VTD & 5EAT- w/ H6-probably; w/ H4-? Metal underguards - it would be nice. Unpainted cladding (for juice) - ????
juice: I didn't mean power as in the engine running, but having the vehicle hardwired so the electrical system is working. A lot of other booths have that. How did you get the photo of the display lit up then?
Bob: Yes, the S40 is smaller. It is being offered with a 5-speed MT, auto or 6-speed MT.
I flew out to Detroit for 1) the auto show to see the Legacy and 2) my brother went to U Mich and wanted a new sweatshirt (honestly!).
Everyone needs a little crazy road trip now and then.
OK. If I go the Outback route, it'll be less sporty and more family oriented than a Legacy GT (this Fence is getting bigger...).
So I'd want the H6 engine, 5 speed Sportshift. Heated cloth seats, big moonroof the only "luxury". Manual A/C, single CD is OK. Unpainted cladding, skid plates underneath. Towing package w/integrated Class II hitch. Full size spare.
No HIDs, but gimme the gorgeous projectors from the Legacy. No McIntosh here, no HIDs, no Navi, no climate control.
Make the seats very versatile, throw in some built-in boosters like Volvo while you're at it.
Keep the price down. For this setup $25k street price is reasonable.
I'd even drop the H4 entirely, and make this H6 the "base" model. Oh, and add VTD and stability control to my list.
Then have a luxury step-up model called the LL Bean, with leather and the other goodies I didn't want. Sportshift only.
Finally, a 3rd model called the Outback XT, or Turbo, or whatever, which I'm not going to pretend I would afford, but should have all the sporty features you could want. 5MT only.
Ken: I don't think the display was lit up, didn't those pics come from subdriven?
We have one (an '02 and we absolutely love it). Why did we choose this quirky model? Yeah, it looks distinctive (to us), but that wasn't taken into account at all. We wanted VDC, we DIDN'T want a wagon. Period. We're still very happy with our choice, and if we had to make it again, it would be the same. Yes, VTD is available in the WRX sedan, but to us, the VDC is worth the extra $$ (not knocking the WRX, but the VDC is one fine ride IMHO). Dave
I must be getting all the photos confused. Didn't you mention something about how bright the projector beams were? I think I just assumed you guys saw the vehicles with electrical power. However, I do think Subaru should have made the effort to supply some DC and light up their showcase models.
"Fat bumpers and only 250/250. Geez. They won't be happy unless it has 400/400, 7 spd., 18 in rims for around $25,000 and arrives at dealers on Monday morning."
Neither was at the Auto Show, and we asked SoA employees about it, they kept mentioning that they tried to keep the target price reasonable.
Doesn't mean it could not be added later, it would be very easy actually. I think if there are sustained strong sales, and a demand for those, they could be added. Nav first, most likely.
HIDs? I kind of doubt it at this point. The projector beams on there now look like HIDs, probably function well if similar lights from the past are any indication. So it wouldn't be much of an upgrade, wouldn't look any better, and would cost a lot more, for little benefit.
Let's face it, a lot of folks want the look of HID, an ad for some blue bulbs even advertises as such.
I think juice is right. The new Legacy fold out brochure specifically mentions "halogen" projector beam headlights. I think the likelyhood of getting HIDs this round is slim. The Navi system may be a better possibility.
The best thing to do is keep lettting Subaru know what we want through the Subaru website. Details on the Legacy have not yet been finalized so there's still time for change.
Comments
What will it do to their image esp. in states like California( environ sensitive ) states, esp. when makers like toyota, honda are coming up hybrids..........
Subaru has been limited in how much power they can offer with their AWD lineup because of CAFE, plus they can't tint windows on the Forester and Outback, while trucks can. Yet most are bought by the same consumers and used for the same purposes.
The work truck loophole is outdated and needs to be phased out. Slowly only so manufacturers can manage it.
The problem? Well, Subaru has been toting the fact that their lineup is all cars, so now they could look a little hypocritical. OK, to the 3 people that care, but still.
-juice
I'm all for being a good steward of the creation, but the EPA errs on the extreme.
And as Colin said, the environmentalists will buy some sort of hybrid anyway.
In any case it looks like Subaru is developing hybrid technology that it could put to use in any of its models, for those that want it.
Eric
It's like Bill Ford saying his SUVs will get more efficient, then introducing the Excursion.
Of course the Excursion bombed, but probably for other reasons.
-juice
If I were them I'd just drop the ad. Hey they dropped "The Beauty of All Wheel Drive" and replaced it with "Driven by what's inside".
Now they can say "Truckin' by what's inside"
duh-dum-dum
Eric
I'm fine with it, I just think they should proceed carefully.
An Outback sedan is a bad idea, and for 8% of the volume? Send those 8% to a Legacy sedan.
-juice
Similarly, our system of mileage requirements is far from extreme---and the EPA is far from powerful or unchecked. Just look at what happened to the last few EPA heads.
Chris
"Or, I want the look of an SUV, but none of the utility." Both seem like pretty small markets to me. Although I think someone here has one--I think Ralph or Otis I can't remember. Maybe they can share as to why they bought it.
Yeah, I could care less what they call it as long as it's a good'un!
Eric
Eric
I have been reading the posts from other members and their concern about how adding these features would raise the MSRP. However I think Subaru has done a good job productizing their offerings for the UK and was wondering why they don't do something similar here. I am trying to show equivalent models, the spec don't necessarily match:
UK -------------- US
=== ------------- ===
2.0i ------------ 2.5i
2.0i S ---------- 2.5i Limited
2.5i ------------ 2.5 GT
2.5i SE --------- 2.5 GT Limited
2.5i SEn (nav)--- 2.5 GT Limited n????
3.0R ------------ Will we get the 3.0 or only on outback?
3.0Rn (nav)------ Will we get the 3.0 or only on outback?
This allows the MSRP of the 2.5 GT and GT Ltd to be competitive yet still allow Subaru to offer expensive extras like the nav system. This is also similar to the Honda Accord with the LX, EX Leather and the EX Leather with Nav.
I know a number of people have mentioned after market solutions. However I like the way a factory nav is integrated with other features such as the trip computer, check system etc. From auto-report.net:
"A highly luminous, 7-inch touch-panel LCD with a DVD navigation system is available as a factory option. In addition to navigation functions, its multi-information display functions include instantly available mileage calculation and car maintenance check lists through the use of the in-car LAN network."
May be I just like my toys, even the most pointless ones. From BBC's Topgear:
"The 3.0R features a small binnacle of digital read-outs, rather in the style of the Nissan Skyline GTR's, and including an acceleration meter. This seems like good fun at first, as the achieved level of shove is displayed as a percentage of that available and, obviously, the object quickly becomes to hit 100 per cent every time.
Trouble is, you can become fixated on it at the very moment when you should be looking at the road; ie when giving it the berries. Develop an obsession with the voltmeter instead - it never moves so it's much safer."
Pointless maybe, but I still like to have them. I guess my only consideration would be if they offer a retro fit nav system that looks like the factory system. It's offered in Japan...
http://www.subaru.co.jp/topics/t-2004/navi_campaign/01/index.html
Will we get it? Comments...agree/disagree?
- spinaker
I do think it would be grossly unfair for the Saturn Vue to get a pass while the Forester XT is forced to pay CAFE penalties, when efficiency for both is roughly similar. It's absurd, some to think of it.
I'm sure that was Subaru's thinking.
Nav: I bet the Outback will get it. If it's popular, surely it'll spread to the Legacy lineup. I bet that will happen, maybe for MY2006.
-juice
I'll write up a longer report later with pix, but I just wanted to briefly share my impressions.
I was disappointed with the Subaru booth. Both the Legacy GT wagon and sedan were there but they were fenced off and towards the rear and sides of the booth. The most anyone could do was reach over the railing and open and close the doors. That's it.
The display, in my opinion, was not worthy of a new product intro. The WRX sedans at the front of the booth towards the walkway was getting more attention than the new Legacys! Only those in the "know" were ogling the Legacy around the fence.
I had to beg and plead with the floor staff there to let me and my brother sit in the GT wagon. Apparently, they had reversed the decision to allow people into the vehicles. Luckily, the staff caved into my repeated pleas (and my truthful story that I flew in just from California to see this model) and allowed us in as long as we were "supervised".
The power to the GT was completely disconnected so I could not see anything of the instrument cluster, center console or headlights. Major disappointment. C'mon guys, at least hardwire the vehicles to keep the displays and lights going and stick a flourescent tube in the vehicle!
My impressions of the new Legacy -- looks very sleek and more substantial than the outgoing model -- all the things juice and Bob reported back. However, I don't know if it was the presentation, the lack of enthusiasm from the floor staff or the fact that none of the electrical systems were on, but my excitement kind of faded after getting there. All this after entering the show floor right when it opened, making a beeline for the Subaru booth with my heart pounding with anticipation.
No Legacy 2.5i to be seen.
The suprise winner in my book was the Volvo S40 sedan/V50 wagon. I thought this vehicle looked great in person. Part of it had to do with a more enthusiastic booth staff all ready with information on prices and the ability to sit and compare various trims (all with electrical power ON). The vehicle has presense and it's stats and preliminary review by C&D (see Feb '04 issue) are promising. 6-speed manual with a 5-cylinder turbo with 236ft. lbs of torque from 1500rpm with all the Volvo saftey features. The only downside is that it's a tad narrower than the Legacy, is probably not as much a driver's car and may be more expensive with all the options.
In closing, before Detroit I was 101% sure the Legacy GT was going to be my next vehicle. Now, I have some second thoughts and will probably look into the V50 a little more.
Ken
There were only 2 on the floor? That means they pulled the 2.5i limited that was towards the front of the booth, near the Forester.
Did Volvo let you in to the wagon, or just the sedan? We were only able to get in the S40, not the V50, which was locked.
Maybe Volvo rigged up a 12 volt power supply some how? External power was allowed. I think the battery or starter had to be disconnected, though.
-juice
a car behind ropes is a major mistake.
It was awkward getting in and out, more WRX sized, at least the sedan. V50 looks roomier.
Power seats, so yeah, it must have had power.
-juice
The wagon would address her no-folding-seats concern. Without those she might have gone elsewhere anyway.
I still say they should drop the sedan. It would make Subaru more unique and surely generate less controvery in the press (even if only 3 people actually care).
-juice
I know that back in the '80's, we were really involved with classification issues. Back then, if the vehicle had 4WD or AWD, it automatically became a "multi-purpose" vehicle with a different set of rules.
More to come, but should I post what I learn here or in the Cafe'?
Patti
Patti: I think if the info relates to the future Outback specifically, then post it here.
If it's more about Subaru's general strategy/thinking, then Cafe. Just my 2 cents'.
-juice
"A highly luminous, 7-inch touch-panel LCD with a DVD navigation system is available as a factory option. In addition to navigation functions, its multi-information display functions include instantly available mileage calculation and car maintenance check lists through the use of the in-car LAN network."
I much prefer a nicely integrated factory unit to an aftermarket unit.
Bob
Did you just fly out for the show, or did you have business in Detroit?
Bob
-juice
Ken: Interesting observation about the S40/V50. They're going to be built on the next-generation Ford Focus platform IIRC? I wonder if that will have any impact on public perception of them.
Ed
-juice
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
i am afraid subaru is going to count on OB sedan for H6s......which is a mistake...
they should offer Legacy H6, if they are looking to sell more
IMO no. A truck/sedan would set a precedent and make Subaru a target.
Just do it with the Outback as a wagon only. Hardly anyone would even notice.
-juice
Ed
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-01-13-outback_x.htm
DaveM
-juice
Maybe now I can get my "Adventure Package"! An inch more ground clearance - check. Slightly larger tires - maybe. Better approach / departure angles - hopefully. Low range - doubt it. VTD & 5EAT- w/ H6-probably; w/ H4-? Metal underguards - it would be nice. Unpainted cladding (for juice) - ????
DaveM
why cant they add those truck like features and still have it classified as a car?
sounds like marketing spin to me....
Bob: Yes, the S40 is smaller. It is being offered with a 5-speed MT, auto or 6-speed MT.
I flew out to Detroit for 1) the auto show to see the Legacy and 2) my brother went to U Mich and wanted a new sweatshirt (honestly!).
Everyone needs a little crazy road trip now and then.
Ken
So I'd want the H6 engine, 5 speed Sportshift. Heated cloth seats, big moonroof the only "luxury". Manual A/C, single CD is OK. Unpainted cladding, skid plates underneath. Towing package w/integrated Class II hitch. Full size spare.
No HIDs, but gimme the gorgeous projectors from the Legacy. No McIntosh here, no HIDs, no Navi, no climate control.
Make the seats very versatile, throw in some built-in boosters like Volvo while you're at it.
Keep the price down. For this setup $25k street price is reasonable.
I'd even drop the H4 entirely, and make this H6 the "base" model. Oh, and add VTD and stability control to my list.
Then have a luxury step-up model called the LL Bean, with leather and the other goodies I didn't want. Sportshift only.
Finally, a 3rd model called the Outback XT, or Turbo, or whatever, which I'm not going to pretend I would afford, but should have all the sporty features you could want. 5MT only.
Ken: I don't think the display was lit up, didn't those pics come from subdriven?
-juice
We're still very happy with our choice, and if we had to make it again, it would be the same. Yes, VTD is available in the WRX sedan, but to us, the VDC is worth the extra $$ (not knocking the WRX, but the VDC is one fine ride IMHO).
Dave
There are simple ways they could address the needs of those 3500 buyers.
-juice
I must be getting all the photos confused. Didn't you mention something about how bright the projector beams were? I think I just assumed you guys saw the vehicles with electrical power. However, I do think Subaru should have made the effort to supply some DC and light up their showcase models.
Ken
Subaru probably didn't have time to "rig" the lights and not blow up the ECU.
-juice
ROFLMAO! That's freakin' hilarious, dude!
DaveM
Did you see it in the autoshow ?
I think it is not available, otherwise they would have mentioned in the press release
Doesn't mean it could not be added later, it would be very easy actually. I think if there are sustained strong sales, and a demand for those, they could be added. Nav first, most likely.
HIDs? I kind of doubt it at this point. The projector beams on there now look like HIDs, probably function well if similar lights from the past are any indication. So it wouldn't be much of an upgrade, wouldn't look any better, and would cost a lot more, for little benefit.
Let's face it, a lot of folks want the look of HID, an ad for some blue bulbs even advertises as such.
-juice
The best thing to do is keep lettting Subaru know what we want through the Subaru website. Details on the Legacy have not yet been finalized so there's still time for change.
Ken
-juice