Thanks to: New "Impreza" in WRC 3 Originally posted by C17LOAD
I don't know if this has been posted already, though I searched and didn't find anything, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a previous post about it.
Playstation's secret Scooby scoop
The Subaru Impreza's rise to fame can be directly linked to the emergence of the PlayStation generation. Two years ago, the quirky Japanese car manufacturer gave unsuspecting fans a sneak peek at the secret look of the facelifted Impreza in a top-selling console game. Has it done the same for the next Scooby?
The WRC 2 Extreme rally game featured not only the "standard" rally cars, but also gave each of the teams the opportunity to come up with a fantasy "Extreme" evolution of their rally cars. Only, in Subaru's case fantasy turned into reality when the restyled Impreza featured in the game became road-going reality as a replacement for the "bug-eye".
Now WRC 3 (previewed in the February edition of CAR) has gone on sale. The game again boasts the same feature, with a new "Extreme" Impreza being revealed after the player has managed to win the world championship on "Difficult" level with the standard version. And this is what it looks like.
These pictures could quite possibly reveal the final look of the next Impreza, which will be launched in Japan late this year. The car features the new "horseshoe" grille which, as CARtoday.com reported recently, is to become standard on every Subaru launched in the future.
At the rear the Scooby's lights are inspired by those used on the B11S concept car shown at the Geneva Show last year. Like the much-maligned "bug-eye" design, the new look is set to be extremely controversial, and the reason for plenty of angst among Subaru-folk who are eager to see what style chief Andreas Zapatinas has in store for their favourite car.
One thing is certain though, interior style and quality are set for major improvement, although Subaru will not allow the sporty versions to become too "refined", the firm says. The "ready for rally" appeal of the WRX and STi badges has become a immensely valuable asset for Subaru. But so is the name Impreza, therefore rumours that the company will rebadge the car B5 are highly unlikely to be true.
Technical details on the new Scooby are still sketchy at this stage, save for the possibility that all Impreza STi models will get a new turbocharged 2,5-litre flat-four engines producing in excess of 240 kW. Performance should, therefore, be even more ferocious than the current version can achieve. But more could be in store, if the rumours of a 300 kW turbocharged three-litre monster are to be believed. This engine is also likely to début in an upcoming large Subaru SUV and a secret new coupé.
Once again, how does final drive ratio (4.44 in the '04 FXT MT and allegedly the '05 OXT MT) relate functionally to the gear ratios for 1-5 (3.454, 1.947, 1.366, 0.972 & 0.738)? I know it's "shorter" and less energy efficient, but how does that work? Anyone?
In the past, manufacturers have downrated the towing capacity of turbos, or recommended against it all together. Could be the same thing here. Though, 3000 vs. 2700 is not much different.
The current OB 2.5 Auto has 4.44 final drive, so no change there.
All Legacy / Outback Turbos and H6 get VTD w/ 5EAT SportShift. 5EAT is optional on the Turbos. The only Legacy / Outbacks without VTD are the 2.5i's and they have an optional 4EAT SportShift.
zman, in as few words as possible: the gear ratios are how many times the output shaft from the transmission turns relative to the engine RPM;s. Thus, a 3.454 gear ratio in 1st gear means that the output shaft turns once every 3.454 engine revolutions,approximately one third as quickly as the engine, increasing the effective torque coming out of the transmission. as you upshift, you get all the way to a .759 gear ratio in 5th gear, which means the output shaft is actually turning faster than the crankshaft and flywheel,approximately 1 1/3 times for each engine RPM...really spinning! Then, the rotation of the output shaft is reduced, the same in every transmission gear, by the ring gears in the differential. The larger the ring gear, the greater the reduction, which means greater torque applied at the wheel.If you want to do the math, you can multiply the transmission gear ratio by the final recuction ratio to determine how the axle shaft is rotating relative to the engine..in 1st gear, 3.454 x 4.44 = 15.33...the wheels turn once for every 15.33 engine RPMS with the 5MT, once every 12.36 in 1st with the 5EAT. All other things being equal, the engine will be able to overcome the load approx 25% more effectively while acclerating with the 5MT than the 5EAT, while burning a correspondingly greater amount of fuel , of course.If you want to get really involved, you can multiply this by your tire diameter and approximate your linear speed!
So, applying the same rotation from the output shaft through the 4.44 final reduction ratio in the OB XT 5 MT actually rotates the wheels almost 25% less than the 3.58 reduction in the 5EAT , but with 25% greater applied torque. The practical difference is the 4.44 final reduction in the 5MT is a set up better for pushing under load, whether its towing or accelerating hard;this also works in Reverse gear, which will also give the 5MT a decided power edge pulling in reverse, i.e., moving a trailer backwards ; Conversely, the 3.58 reduction ration in the 5EAT will not accelerate as quickly, especially under a load, but will really get things twisting once you get momentum working for you >>Leading to better fuel efficiency . Of course, the Auto tranny will lose a little efficiency at top speeds, so the top speeds will be very similar....but I expect the MT will be revving to a higher RPM than the 5EAT at most "legal" operating speeds.
The net result: The OB XT with the 5MT will be a screaming monster from a standing start and under load, but dont expect 24 mpg! The 5EAT will be quick, but not nearly as quick as the 5MT, and should get better fuel efficiency.
The only reservation we have about the new version is backseat space — that has never been an Outback strong point, and we'll have to wait and see if the 2005 model can do any better in this regard.
So I guess controversial rear legroom is a Subie hallmark :-)
Here's a comparison of the various OB models in top gear:
I also threw the Forester XT in for comparison. The 3.0R is going to be the relaxed cruiser of the bunch, just like the H6 models now. The XT 5-spd is going to be churning away similar to the Forester XT. So, I'm thinking we won't see very good mileage out of the Outback XT 5-spd, which would be too bad. Still, we need to see the real MPG numbers. I can't really estimate that from the current info, and the 2.5-Turbo in the OB is certainly different from the one in the Forester.
Interesting that the need-desire site shows dual chrome tips, because they are not visible in any of the pics from the introduction at Chicago. I wonder which is right? I would suspect that the auto show examples are closer to production, so maybe the Outbacks won't have the chrome tips???
go to the Style section in Performance under the Outback. For those menu driven, choose OUTBACK | PERFORMANCE | DESIRE | STYLE. You'll see 4 'bubbles' to mouse over, click the bottom left one. Twin 16 liter mufflers.
I will try to get pics of them when I go Monday to the show.
I just noticed that the car from the need-desire site has the steering wheel on the right. I bet most of those pics are from the Japanese/Aussie Outbacks and not the US model.
Looks like us Yanks will probably get stuck without the chrome then....
I'd gladly be wrong in this case. However, I spent more time at need-desire, and almost all the pics are of right-hand drive Outbacks. So I'm not too confident those details are accurate for the US car....
A few not-so-obvious differences: - Legacy GT has aluminum lower suspension arms - Steering ratio is quicker on Legacy GT - Chrome exhaust tips - Final drive ratio lower on Legacy GT
As we have not yet received all of the specifications for the 2005 Legacy and Outback models, I cannot advise whether or not they will be offered with a Navigation System. I will, however, forward your comments to our Product Planning Department as a suggestion to do so.
why dont you plot the torque curve for each engine, too, so folks can get a comparative sense of what will happen if they were to suddenly floor the gas pedal at any point along the 5th gear cruising graph. Great work! Your graph illustrates very well what that loud whirring sound is when you get a NA 2.5i or Forester XT w/ MT above 70 mph( to say nothing of wind noise, which will be another significant difference between models for thosewho will be mostly cruising the interstate)
Mark: excellent write up, but one other factor I want to throw in. When you compared the MT to the AT, the engine to tranny coupling must be considered as well. The mechanical clutch plate (MT) and the torque converter (AT) provide additional torque multiplication, but of varying amounts for different durations, and in a very different part of the engines torque curve.
For instance, you might launch your MT at about 3k rpm, and transition from full slip to fully engaged in about 2 second. By contrast, the torque converter begins moving the car at 800rpm, slip profile can be varied by pump pressure, and provides some slip until the lockup clutch first engages in 3rd gear, and again in 4th.
Just something else to consider to make the math more complex......
A comparison of the pdf spec sheetsat http://media.subaru.com reveals several surprises, at least I was surprised. The manual tranny for the OBXT MT is definitely geared for offroad application, with a 1st gear (3.454)that is 10% lower than in the Legacy GT 5MT (3.17) as well as the final reduction in the OBXT (4.44) is greater than in the Legacy GT MT (4.11). The gear ratiosare identicalin the 5EAT between thecars, but the final reduction ratio is again 10% longer in the LegacyGT 3.27 vs 3.58. There will be significantly different performance characterisitcs between the two high performance vehicles.
The Legacy GT also gets fatter rubber and sits almost 6 inches lower to the ground,with lower COF.
Comments
-juice
I don't know if this has been posted already, though I searched and didn't find anything, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a previous post about it.
Playstation's secret Scooby scoop
The Subaru Impreza's rise to fame can be directly linked to the emergence of the PlayStation generation. Two years ago, the quirky Japanese car manufacturer gave unsuspecting fans a sneak peek at the secret look of the facelifted Impreza in a top-selling console game. Has it done the same for the next Scooby?
The WRC 2 Extreme rally game featured not only the "standard" rally cars, but also gave each of the teams the opportunity to come up with a fantasy "Extreme" evolution of their rally cars. Only, in Subaru's case fantasy turned into reality when the restyled Impreza featured in the game became road-going reality as a replacement for the "bug-eye".
Now WRC 3 (previewed in the February edition of CAR) has gone on sale. The game again boasts the same feature, with a new "Extreme" Impreza being revealed after the player has managed to win the world championship on "Difficult" level with the standard version. And this is what it looks like.
These pictures could quite possibly reveal the final look of the next Impreza, which will be launched in Japan late this year. The car features the new "horseshoe" grille which, as CARtoday.com reported recently, is to become standard on every Subaru launched in the future.
At the rear the Scooby's lights are inspired by those used on the B11S concept car shown at the Geneva Show last year. Like the much-maligned "bug-eye" design, the new look is set to be extremely controversial, and the reason for plenty of angst among Subaru-folk who are eager to see what style chief Andreas Zapatinas has in store for their favourite car.
One thing is certain though, interior style and quality are set for major improvement, although Subaru will not allow the sporty versions to become too "refined", the firm says. The "ready for rally" appeal of the WRX and STi badges has become a immensely valuable asset for Subaru. But so is the name Impreza, therefore rumours that the company will rebadge the car B5 are highly unlikely to be true.
Technical details on the new Scooby are still sketchy at this stage, save for the possibility that all Impreza STi models will get a new turbocharged 2,5-litre flat-four engines producing in excess of 240 kW. Performance should, therefore, be even more ferocious than the current version can achieve. But more could be in store, if the rumours of a 300 kW turbocharged three-litre monster are to be believed. This engine is also likely to début in an upcoming large Subaru SUV and a secret new coupé.
Greg
Bob
Greg
http://www.media.subaru.com/
Can you believe they still have 2003 images up too!
Bob
If they can do in Europe ?
How long can i wait ?
-mike
Did anyone see this on the turbo Outback?
Ken
I am hoping we can get the panasonic monitor:
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/urltrurl?lp=ja_en&ur- l=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.subaru.co.jp%2Ftopics%2Ft-2004%2Fnavi_campaign- %2F12%2Findex.html
and hook it up to an aftermarket NAV like alpine. Atleast it would look factory like.
Is there another board I should post this on?
Zman
Why can;t they give this as option, why are they such boneheads, how will VDC compete if all other SUVs have it ?
Thanks. It finally worked, but only after I added the gin.
Zman
These are the same numbers that someone from over at nabisco had mentioned. I would think the turbo would match or exceed the H-6 here?
Bob
Craig
then put your left foot in and shake it all about <<<
I have GOT to stop reading nj's posts when I'm eating ... <cleaning up the chili off the monitor and keyboard>
All Legacy / Outback Turbos and H6 get VTD w/ 5EAT SportShift. 5EAT is optional on the Turbos. The only Legacy / Outbacks without VTD are the 2.5i's and they have an optional 4EAT SportShift.
DaveM
in as few words as possible: the gear ratios are how many times the output shaft from the transmission turns relative to the engine RPM;s. Thus, a 3.454 gear ratio in 1st gear means that the output shaft turns once every 3.454 engine revolutions,approximately one third as quickly as the engine, increasing the effective torque coming out of the transmission. as you upshift, you get all the way to a .759 gear ratio in 5th gear, which means the output shaft is actually turning faster than the crankshaft and flywheel,approximately 1 1/3 times for each engine RPM...really spinning! Then, the rotation of the output shaft is reduced, the same in every transmission gear, by the ring gears in the differential. The larger the ring gear, the greater the reduction, which means greater torque applied at the wheel.If you want to do the math, you can multiply the transmission gear ratio by the final recuction ratio to determine how the axle shaft is rotating relative to the engine..in 1st gear, 3.454 x 4.44 = 15.33...the wheels turn once for every 15.33 engine RPMS with the 5MT, once every 12.36 in 1st with the 5EAT. All other things being equal, the engine will be able to overcome the load approx 25% more effectively while acclerating with the 5MT than the 5EAT, while burning a correspondingly greater amount of fuel , of course.If you want to get really involved, you can multiply this by your tire diameter and approximate your linear speed!
So, applying the same rotation from the output shaft through the 4.44 final reduction ratio in the OB XT 5 MT actually rotates the wheels almost 25% less than the 3.58 reduction in the 5EAT , but with 25% greater applied torque. The practical difference is the 4.44 final reduction in the 5MT is a set up better for pushing under load, whether its towing or accelerating hard;this also works in Reverse gear, which will also give the 5MT a decided power edge pulling in reverse, i.e., moving a trailer backwards ; Conversely, the 3.58 reduction ration in the 5EAT will not accelerate as quickly, especially under a load, but will really get things twisting once you get momentum working for you >>Leading to better fuel efficiency . Of course, the Auto tranny will lose a little efficiency at top speeds, so the top speeds will be very similar....but I expect the MT will be revving to a higher RPM than the 5EAT at most "legal" operating speeds.
The net result: The OB XT with the 5MT will be a screaming monster from a standing start and under load, but dont expect 24 mpg! The 5EAT will be quick, but not nearly as quick as the 5MT, and should get better fuel efficiency.
There will be a quiz tomorrow.
Mark
Zman
p.s. Thanks
So I guess controversial rear legroom is a Subie hallmark :-)
-Frank P.
see pics in above link......both exhausts are hidden....even on XT
I am disappointed !
So, you get this in legacy but not in OB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I also threw the Forester XT in for comparison. The 3.0R is going to be the relaxed cruiser of the bunch, just like the H6 models now. The XT 5-spd is going to be churning away similar to the Forester XT. So, I'm thinking we won't see very good mileage out of the Outback XT 5-spd, which would be too bad. Still, we need to see the real MPG numbers. I can't really estimate that from the current info, and the 2.5-Turbo in the OB is certainly different from the one in the Forester.
Craig
Notice the new grill of Subaru, the fuselage and wings. Good work Rob!
Luch
-Brian
-Frank P.
then the last pic of a blue outback has dual exhaust.
-Brian
http://www.need-desire.com/WallpaperOutback/1024x768/Outback2.jpg
http://www.need-desire.com/WallpaperOutback/1024x768/Outback13.jp- g
-Brian
http://www.need-desire.com/WallpaperOutback/1024x768/O-1024-2.htm
-Brian
Craig
I will try to get pics of them when I go Monday to the show.
-Brian
Looks like us Yanks will probably get stuck without the chrome then....
Craig
Remember, we saw a MT FXT with PP last year at Chicago, and we haven't that model yet either.
-Brian
Craig
the legacy showed wrong bumbers
ob shows wrong dual exhausts.....
wonder they didn;t provide chrome tips ?
http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=6827
Nice job with the graph. Could you also plot the Legacy GT in there also, or does it share the same gearing?
Ken
see pics
http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshow/articles/101248/page021.html- ?tid=edmunds.e.autoshow..leftnav.22.*
- 2.5T
- Steering wheel mounted shift buttons
- LED gauges
A few not-so-obvious differences:
- Legacy GT has aluminum lower suspension arms
- Steering ratio is quicker on Legacy GT
- Chrome exhaust tips
- Final drive ratio lower on Legacy GT
Ken
Greg
As we have not yet received all of the specifications for the 2005
Legacy
and Outback models, I cannot advise whether or not they will be offered
with
a Navigation System. I will, however, forward your comments to our
Product
Planning Department as a suggestion to do so.
Best wishes,
John J. Mergen
Subaru of America
Great work! Your graph illustrates very well what that loud whirring sound is when you get a NA 2.5i or Forester XT w/ MT above 70 mph( to say nothing of wind noise, which will be another significant difference between models for thosewho will be mostly cruising the interstate)
Mark
Mark: excellent write up, but one other factor I want to throw in. When you compared the MT to the AT, the engine to tranny coupling must be considered as well. The mechanical clutch plate (MT) and the torque converter (AT) provide additional torque multiplication, but of varying amounts for different durations, and in a very different part of the engines torque curve.
For instance, you might launch your MT at about 3k rpm, and transition from full slip to fully engaged in about 2 second. By contrast, the torque converter begins moving the car at 800rpm, slip profile can be varied by pump pressure, and provides some slip until the lockup clutch first engages in 3rd gear, and again in 4th.
Just something else to consider to make the math more complex......
Steve
A comparison of the pdf spec sheetsat http://media.subaru.com reveals several surprises, at least I was surprised. The manual tranny for the OBXT MT is definitely geared for offroad application, with a 1st gear (3.454)that is 10% lower than in the Legacy GT 5MT (3.17) as well as the final reduction in the OBXT (4.44) is greater than in the Legacy GT MT (4.11). The gear ratiosare identicalin the 5EAT between thecars, but the final reduction ratio is again 10% longer in the LegacyGT 3.27 vs 3.58. There will be significantly different performance characterisitcs between the two high performance vehicles.
The Legacy GT also gets fatter rubber and sits almost 6 inches lower to the ground,with lower COF.
Mark