Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    I just thought that if Subie really thinks that they are moving upscale, but still don't even have variable valve lift/timing in their bread and butter sport compact, then they have a lot of introspection to do. SOA now needs to advance just to keep up. Yes it's still fast, but these days, the car that won a comparison 3 years can wind up last in the same segment. The '06 Subies won't see much change for a while, so they'd better overshoot the competition. I'd say that the Leg GT does do that from the performance standpoint. If they'd put better tires on, they might have been clear winners.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.subaru-global.com/topics/ms/2004paris/

    I really like the NAV unit on the new (for Europe) Forester 2.5XT. It's mounted high on the center stack, right in line with the driver's vision. You just glance to the right slightly, and do not look down on the center stack, which is the way it should be. I hope, if NAV makes it on the the US-spec F-XT, this is the way it's offered.

    Downside? You lose that top storage cubby. :(

    Bob
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    that top cubby is handy, but not a deal-breaker by any means. in fact I used mine most often to hold a Garmin StreetPilot! LOL

    ~c
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Yeah, that's the location of the various nav/video options in the JDM Impreza (and probably Forester) line. Some people on NABISCO actually imported the screen assembly over to the US. It's pretty cool the way it pops up.

    Craig
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    That at-the-top of the center stack is the perfect location for NAV units. The more I think about it, the less I like NAV units that are mounted down low on the center stack, where you have to take your eyes completely off the road to read it. That's really bad and unsafe design.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I have a very simple solution.

    DO NOT MOVE UPSCALE!

    <rant warning>

    Sheesh. They have record sales, a full decade of year after year growth, explosive success, and they conclude they should...

    CHANGE DIRECTIONS?!

    What genius decided that?

    They probably came up with the idea when VW was on top of the world, but guess what? VW has stumbled and tumbled. The idea just looks dumb now.

    If they still do move upscale, just be prepared for about 20-30% less sales volume. I'm totally serious.

    Upscale is mostly about EGO, get over it. I think the market positioning is fine now, just offer more products.

    <end rant>

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Next on CNN, Kia has a good year and decides to take on Rolls Royce.

    And after that, Porsche's growth in the SUV arena prompt it to decide to move downscale to compete with GMC Truck.

    That's the type of logic being applied here.

    -juice
  • rangnerrangner Member Posts: 336
    I agree, Subaru doesn't need to alienate their growing customer base with higher prices.

    I think their push for upscale may be a result of being once bitten twice shy. They tried to take on the other big companies before and failed, so now the want to increase their profits without directly competing with Honda Toyota etc. e.g. stay small and move upscale.

    But I think that was different because they lost their brand identity in the process. Now they have a clear idea of what kind of car maker they are: boxer, symmetrical AWD, etc. Stick to it and expand into more segments!

    If they move upscale in the sense of price, they will retain only a few diehard fans and fade into the obscurity that Saab is in right now.

    Eric
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Personally, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The 05 VDC MSRP is less than $1000 more than the 04 model was, for a significantly better car (I am using the VDC since it's at the top of the line where the notion of upscale is most apparent). The improvements on the 05 are easily worth the $1000 premium. So I fail to see how Subaru has gone upscale and alienated it's core buyers. If anything they did it 6+ years ago when they started offering loaded Outback wagons that were way more expensive than typical Subarus at the time.

    Subaru now offers vehicles that WRX owners can migrate to when they grow out of their WRX. I think it makes perfect sense to have a Legacy GT model for these folks. And the Outback XT model is something many of us have been wanting for years. So the only "upscale" I have seen is Subaru offering an upgrade path for buyers they would otherwise lose. Sounds like good business to me.

    Craig
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    rsholland Sep 24, 2004 10:47am

    That's the level where all NAV should be placed.
    They could angle the screen a little more bias to the driver though.

    -Dave
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Point that we are addressing relates to the media reports that FHI has decided it's going to move up to compete with "premium" brands at a level beyond Volvo and Saab. Think Audi level. Very few of us here think that the current new models are off base, but according to their own press, the intention is to push beyond this to a higher priced market. That is what we are criticising. I have a one word response to this new marketing philosophy..........

    Phaeton!!

    Be smart and learn from someone else's big mistake!

    Nicholas
  • tsytsy Member Posts: 1,551
    Didn't the SVX hit $35K before it was discontinued? And that was what, 8 years ago? That's pretty upscale at the time- and it didn't work. It wasn't a popular car (until it was discontinued).

    I think of Audi as a between brand- below MB, BMW and above Volvo and Saab. Lexus and Infiniti fit somewhere in here too. I have a hard time seeing Subaru compete with these cars. I can see them catching volvo, and they are already becoming Saabs, but when I think upscale I think up-priced, right out of what I want to pay.

    Oh well, I can always downgrade to a Volvo. ;-)

    tom
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I agree about the location, no so sure about angling it towards the driver though. That might make it more difficult for the passenger/navigator. If it's angled, only do it very slightly.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    A lot of marketing success has to do with timing and other factors such as brand perception, etc. The timing of the SVX wasn't right, nor was the image of Subaru making upscale vehicles (back then) in place. So I wouldn't conclude that Subaru's move upmarket is going to fail just because the SVX failed to succeed.

    I think Subaru has learned a lot from their earlier marketing mistakes, and the marketing mistakes of others too. I just don't agree with those who say this move is doomed to fail.

    History is a great teacher, but not necessarily a predictor of the future. You learn from history of what to do, and of what not to do, or at least of how to avert failure.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    "competition" will determine final prices. Right now I see Mazda as offering excellent value, content and styling with both their new Mazda3 and Mazda6, and it looks like they may be moving to offer AWD. When that happens here, they (and others) will offer the "checks & balances" needed for Subaru to keep their prices from skyrocketing out of control.

    As Craig said, the new '05 Legacy and Outback are a much better "value" than the outgoing models, even if they are a little more expensive.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    SVX the other problem was that the styling cues were way out there for the time, the 2-part windows was a big downer for a lot of folks. At the time though it was very powerful 215hp in '92 and it has some features that are just starting to be used today...

    Coil Packs on each cylinder
    1/2 the fuel injectors are turned off on upshifts to make a smoother transition
    Digital climate control
    CD/AM-FM/Cassette Std.
    Telescopic, memory, tilt wheel
    Speed (not engine speed) variable power steering
    Rear wiper on coupe
    Variable Valved Shocks
    Projector beam headlights
    16x7.5" wide rims (wrx only has 16x6.5)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that were tried in years gone by, that have failed in the marketplace, are re-surfacing. GM used to offer a miserable V8,6,4 engine that was horrible in actuality. Well that bank of cylinders that cut off is now making a comeback with Honda, Dodge/Chrysler. The technology (and reliability) have finally caught up with the "concept."

    You're also now seeing a resurgence in adjustable air suspensions. As Mike is so quick to tell everyone, the old systems were less than reliable. I bet the new systems are far superior in every way, including reliability/durability.

    Same with retractable hardtop-convertibles. I remember Ford tried this out back on the '57 Ford 500 Skyliner. It was a marketing flop back then, and now we're seeing a number of these "new" hardtop-convertibles. It started with the MB SLK, then the Lexus roadster, and more and more are being shown at car shows worldwide. IIRC, I was told at the Detroit show by a Subie rep that even the Subie B9SC had that feature, although I have yet to see a picture of it with the roof up.

    We've also mentioned here many times the Studebaker Wagonaire wagon with the sliding rear roof section, which is now "the" key feature on the GMC XUV.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Yup, they are getting smarter with the air-ride systems using them as assists rather than the whole enchelada like they did in the XT6 and Lincolns of the day.

    -mike
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    That list of SVX technologies is really amazing. It was definitely on the cutting edge in the early 90s. I think styling was the largest reason the SVX was a flop, though I kind of liked it myself (2nd would be auto-only). That car was definitely innovative, and ahead of its time. Do you think they will become collector's items, or is that expecting too much?

    Craig
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    They are kinda already in the subaru world. Still commanding a decent value, compared to other subies of the era.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Oh, I don't think they should go mainstream, not at all.

    But do you think competing with Lexus and Acura will be easier than competing with Toyota and Honda? No way, Jose!

    My beef isn't so much with the VDC, it's with the base prices of their volume models, the Outbacks. Right now street prices are about $4000 higher for the 05s compared to what I saw for 04s.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://asia.news.yahoo.com/041001/kyodo/d85eijv81.html
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://vocuspr.vocus.com/VocusPR30/DotNet/Newsroom/Query.aspx?Sit- eName=Subaru&Entity=PRAsset&SF_PRAsset_PRAssetID_EQ=91924- &XSL=PressRelease&Title=Releases&Cache=True

    DDB is a long established, and highly regarded ad agency. They've been around for years. I look forward to see what they come up with.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I dunno about made in Sweden, just more Saab input on non-powertrain parts. At least for now.

    -juice
  • bigelmbigelm Member Posts: 995
    I just started working for Omnicom Group, Inc., who owns DDB. But I work in the Corporate office. I need to make some phone calls and meet some people.

    I'd like to see this project moving... :-)
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Congrats on the job and see my post on nabisco about a focus group. ;-)

    -Dennis
  • bigelmbigelm Member Posts: 995
    I did and will follow up with you as soon I can track the icon down ;-)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    a larger premium sedan may be the next all-new Subie, after the Tribeca.

    http://TheCarConnection.com/index.asp?article=7648&sid=175&am- p;n=156

    Bob
  • bigelmbigelm Member Posts: 995
    Well, that's good news... um... kinda!

    Hopefully, they'll learn from the mistakes they've done to current model entries (Legacy) and offer bells & whistles with this one. Who knows... if they do it right for the premium car, I'll be driving a Subaru again... :-)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Haaa good luck, it'll probably be underpowered with an H6 and be heavy. :( Unless they come out with a significantly larger engine I don't see how they could offer anything larger w/o it being a slow pig! :(

    -mike
  • pon1pon1 Member Posts: 196
    juice wrote Aug 19th....

    " Gimme a Forester "juice Edition", with:

    * start with a basic X model
    * add the turbo engine
    * moonroof as a stand-alone option

    That's it! I'll accessorize the rest myself.

    -juice "

    Agreed.

    Unfortunately, Canada just got a "juice edition" X (X SE with moonroof, heated seats, leather wheel/brake/shifter, cargo tray/cover).

    The X SE includes most of the bits from the FXT that I wanted except the turbo, and none of the luxo stuff from the XS that I dont really need.

    Now my other half is asking why we need to spend an extra $7.5K on the XT version. Kinda hard to defend, even for FXT converts.

    Help me Subaru..build the "juice edition" XT !!!!!

    JP
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Canadian Forester X-SE

    http://www.subaru.ca/interface/Subaru02/NewsDetail02.asp?ArticleI- - - D=1200&OwnerID=&WebPageID=4998&WebSiteID=282

    http://www.subaru.ca/interface/Subaru02/WebPage.asp?WebPageID=545- - 8&Range=Forester&ModelYear=2005&WebSiteID=282

    Steel wheels, unpainted cladding, heated seats and a moonroof. I like that!

    Bob
  • dcm61dcm61 Member Posts: 1,567
    They should have called it XS-JE. :-)

    DaveM
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I agree!

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thank you, JP!

    I just posted a similar comment in the Suggestion thread, I've been asking for an SE model like that all along. Just make it an XT SE, turbo and all.

    Name it after my daughter's initials, XT TT. Hmm, twin turbo anyone? :-)

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, rant time.

    WHAT IS UP with Canada getting all the cool stuff? Are we not worthy?

    Why does their WRX wagon get the AWP and a moonroof? In the US we have to buy a Saab!

    Remember the Dynastar Edition Forester? No? That's because it was only offered in Canada.

    We are repeatedly denied these cool special editions.

    Therefore I recommend the RE (*) line of Subarus, for the US only, NOT Canada.

    This will include:

    * Ski or snow board rack, with boards
    * AWP
    * moonroof
    * all for $400 over the cost of a Forester X
    * an upside down Candian flag

    Just kidding about that last one!

    -juice

    * RE = Revenge Edition
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I think juice secretly wants to become Canadian. ;-P

    Ken
  • robr2robr2 Member Posts: 8,805
    Maybe it's part of a plot:

    http://cwd.ptbcanadian.com
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Jealousy is an ugly thing. ;-)

    -juice
  • pon1pon1 Member Posts: 196
    So now that I've got you interested....

    Who would take the X SE and cnd$7500 (currently US$6000) over the cheapest FXT?

    Imagine you have a near-average income, and have not just won the lottery.

    (cost difference based on Canadian MSRP).

    JP

    Yes, I'd buy an X SE Turbo right now
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My guess is most folks would easily choose the SE. That's a lot of pesos.

    Plus operating costs are lower (insurance, gas, etc.).

    -juice
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    If it makes you feel any better, we are currently paying much more for Subies than you folks South of the 49th. In part it is the recovery of the Loonie, but the newer models haven't dropped in price at all.
    Nicholas
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Some guy over at nabisco was in a Subaru training class, and the SOA Master Tech who was teaching it said the WRX would be getting the 2.5 turbo, because the driveability is so much better than the 2.0 engine.

    Also, the STi will be getting a (better) variable-valve timing more like that found on the H-6. The current STi's valve timing only effects the "degree" of the cam (10 degrees), but on the H6 it also affects the "lift" of the cam as well.

    Bob
  • ozman62ozman62 Member Posts: 229
    Subaru of Canada has been pursuing the 'upmarket' strategy here for awhile, price-wise anyways. Whoops, forgot about the dealerships!
    Owen
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    Some guy over at nabisco was in a Subaru training class, and the SOA Master Tech who was teaching it said the WRX would be getting the 2.5 turbo, because the driveability is so much better than the 2.0 engine.

    Are you sure it wasn't because WRX drivers were angry at being embarrassed by Forester XTs? ;-P

    Sorry, couldn't resist.

    Ed
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    That too probably. :)

    Bob
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Bob, your description of AVCS is exactly right. the '05 EZ30 H6 does have variable lift which works similarly to the original VTEC... cam profile switching.

    every other Subaru with AVCS so far has only intake cam phasing. JDM subarus had this for a while.

    ~Colin
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Thanks, but the guy from nabisco deserves the credit, not me. I got that info from him.

    Bob
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    WHAT IS UP with Canada getting all the cool stuff? Are we not worthy?

    Look at it this way Juice, which would you rather have... better option packages or Patti ;-)

    -Frank
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It's a coupe version of the R2, with R1e styling cues.

    http://response.jp/issue/2004/1015/article64628_1.html

    Knew this was coming...

    Bob
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