This R1e concept is much more successful in terms of styling, as compared to the production R1. Much larger wheels, and a much more graceful body shape, with better integrated headlights.
Even so, the production R1 is a step forward from the R2.
from the SOC marketing VP. It's sort of what I've been saying for sometime, which does not necessarily mean (hugely) more expensive, but more of "best in class."
Bob's happy he has the chance to redeem himself. :-)
Actually, VCM is a first for the class, but it's already been in use in the Civic hybrid for half a decade so we couldn't call that a break through that Bob was looking for.
Are you talking about the Odyssey? If so, yeah, they didn't push the envelope as much as I had hoped they would. When you think about it, the Ody upgrade was a classic Honda. All the right things were done, just not enough of them, which is why I'm almost always frustrated with Honda when I see new models. Only the new Acura RL has left me without that not-enough-has-been-done feeling.
How are Subaru sales doing? Excuse my ignorance (& I'm not being sarcastic here), but does it make sense for Subaru offer yet another model option when current new line is flying off dealer lots (granted, I have not seen latest sales figures)?
Personally, I am very satisfied with the power of my OB XT LTD, and even then, how often can one really use that power safely (other than your local track)? Isn't this (h6 turbo) just going over the top, and will there be a market large enough for Subaru to justify offering/building it in NA?
I guess to a certain degree it will depend on the premium for this model, but based on the premium for the 05 turbos, is it a stretch to suggest that it will be priced too high for most? I would suggest that the majority of Subaru's target market prefer Subaru focuses its "premium offers" on other options as mentioned in other forums (ie mem seats, NAV, adjustable pedals, telescoping steering etc, etc etc) rather than over-pricing to add even more power.
Personally, my gut tells me that we probably will not see Spec B here (especially not in Canada), but I don't purport to know much about automaker marketing strategy.
Anyway, I throw this out there for comments/thoughts of you more knowledgeable folks.
There are lots of people that are turbo-averse. Doesn't matter how quick nor how much they manage the lag, some people simply will not consider a turbocharged car.
That would argue in favor of the Spec B.
STi is all about having a halo car to fly the flag. If Subaru wants to be premium they'll need it.
There are just some folks who will not buy a turbo regardless. The spec.B really appeals to a slightly different audience I think. All the H-6 motors have a more linear and more predictable power delivery, which many people prefer.
The H6 is not a down-low torque engine. It still prefers revs. So while it is more linear it still doesn't produce the satisfying torque of a bigger displacement engine.
They could address that with a 3.3l or 3.5l.
But as it stands, the 3.0l H6 doesn't offer enough of a difference compared to the turbo to sell in any real volume.
It's not as if the competition has a huge amount of torque down low, even in the 6's. Toyo and Honda are certainly fine, and better than my 2.0T but the engine has to whine to push you in your seat. Haven't driven the Nissan 3.5 for comparison. My old 2.4 four banger Altima did have a decent amount of pull off the line. Nicholas
I sat in a G35 shortly after driving A Leg GT and LLBean. Close inspection of the 2004 G35 revealed its inferior materials, fit and finish and comfort.
The 2005 model may be improved.
On the subject of the Type B: I am one of those who would be very happy with the H-6 Liberty 3.0 litre. All we need is a VDC H-6 GT; it would compete well as a reliable alternative with more interior room than an Audi A4 quattro...and at a significantly lower price. But note that the A4 will have the 250 HP engine from the new A6 soon. That might suggest that the torque level of the H-6 3.0 could be a little lacking.
Nissan supposedly improved the Altima's interior this year, but there was so much room for improvement that it could have merely gone from "ultra cheap" to merely "cheap".
The G35 is at least acceptable. I expected more from an Infiniti, though. Acura and Lexus models put it to shame.
Pilot has a 3.5l V6. If the Tribeca comes out with a 3.0l H6 and costs more and it's smaller, it's going to sit in dealer lots collecting cob webs.
Back to my never ending rant about not wanting Subaru to move upscale, remember when I said VW was setting themselves up for high fixed costs and would suffer as a result of Piech's huge ego.
VW will lost more than ONE BILLION dollars this year!
<juice does his I-told-you-so dance>
It's your birthday, it's your birthday
Now, should Subaru do the same thing they did, i.e. move upscale and try to compete in the luxury arena?
The thing with VW is the constant rebadging between the Audi and VW (Phaeton/A8). That Phaeton was bound for failure. - With the way gas prices are going, how many people do you expect to buy a VW12. Before spending $80k on a VW, people would spend it on a Audi, regardless if it's just rebadged. And with the reliability issues of VW, people are willing to give Audi their money though VW is the parent. Does reputation still linger in the back of consumer's minds? - Just maybe...
How much 'upscale' do you want to go? That depends on how much demand there is for it... Certainly Subaru can go upscale; just don't offer a $50k car and everything will be fine!
I read that Audi will soon offer a W12 A8. Will that be it for the Phaeton?
VW should have known, that should have just been an Audi all along. That was just plain stupid.
Even the Touareg, while getting a warmer reception than the W8 or Phaeton, is being discounted heavily. If it were an Audi, and I mean just change the badge alone, I bet it would be discounted less.
I thought theTouareg was popular. I've seen lots of them in Los Angeles. Hummm... I thought many people liked that suv, but juice is right, slap and Audi badge on it, and wow... it's an Audi!
VW's misteps in the luxury market doesn't predict Subarus failure in the upscale market.
VW's problem is it's failure to address and correct the growing quality problems and continuing cusomer service issues. Acura, Lexus built their reputation on quality. Their cars weren't particularly refined but they were respectable and reliable.
The upscale cars VW has done are pretty good. The W8 was too pricey. The Toureag is nice the. Phaeton was a bad decision but it is a nice car. These cars are sitting on the lots not so much for price as for perception of quality of service and reliability.
Subaru is following the mold of Acura and Lexus with a bit more of a performance mindset. Subaru is far more measured and these steps towards upscale luxury are proceeding deliberatly. The new Subaru's headed by the new redesigned Legacy is just the first step. The Halifax or Tribeca or whatever will be the second step. If that is well received then we will see more probably, if not then the minimalist will have nothing to worry about.
The worry seems to be he price. Well 30-35K is going to be the numbers I bet. If it has the nice interior features, nice leather, dual air, NAV, 6 disc CD, fold flat seats, full air bags it will do ok. If it crash tests well then it will really sell. Then if it has some performance then it will be sweet. I would like to see a new 300HP H6 turbo with cylinder deactivation in the new Halifax, though it will probably start with the NA 250HP version.
Hybrid will have to come to models soon as the next luxury feature.
If this goes as planned for Subaru then a next level larger sedan and wagon platform will be next. 3.5L+ H6 Turbo or maybe a H8 next.
It's not quality problems, it's old product, past overdue for fresh designs. The Jetta is 7 years old. Passat has been around since, what, '98 or so? With only one face-lift.
Sales are down. Shocker!
They pulled an Isuzu. They starved their main products for cash, instead spending money on an ill-conceived move to a price arena that their dealers were not ready to support (we agree on that point).
Luxury cars don't have to be highly reliable, the Japanese have really only been a major player in the last decade, in an industry that is more than a century old. Plus VW could never beat Lexus in that game.
Phaeton is sitting on lots because of price. If it were $40-50k, even with less content, it would have stood a chance. At $70-80k, that's stretching it even for an Audi, much less a VW. Badges and labels are very, very important at those elevated prices.
Look at this very topic, recently we've been helping someone shop for a luxury car for his parents, VW would not even get consideration while much cheaper Mercedes E500s would.
Subaru is being more calculated, and I don't think they'll price a sedan at $80 grand any time soon.
But still, look around, people are getting Legacys at $400 under invoice already, a brand new "upscale" model.
Meanwhile BMW 3 series commanded near MSRP for how long? Forever, basically.
Subaru shoppers expect value. New AWD competitors are now abundant, is Subaru going to retreat upward in price and then expect volume to increase?
Ain't happening.
I just hope the Tribeca and large sedan don't push the new Forester and Impreza debuts back. They gotta keep the product fresh. The Forester has been on the same chassis since 1998, basically. Same basic engine, same AWD system.
Audi is luxury, VW is the people's car. That's the right formula to have.
I'm not sure the A3 is even a good idea, to be honest. The A3 is what the Golf should be (i.e. attractive).
Also, the GTI R32 kills the A3, and that makes no sense at all.
Cancel the W8 (already planned) and the Phaeton, and don't replace them. Cancel the plans for the W12 Touareg also. Too little volume to justify that one.
Instead, Audi is getting a Pikes Peak model based on the Touareg, put whatever upgrade engine you have in that instead.
To be honest I'd phase out the complex and expensive W engines completely.
The recent 5 star ratings from the NHTSA for the 2005 Outback help Subarus image. Now Subaru sports two cars with excellent crash test results. If the whole lineup achieves this then you have another token in the value bucket.
Remember, though, they just got some bad press for the Legacy in the IIHS side impact tests. Not once, but twice. Even after the recall the score was only Marginal.
Also, Forester already had 20/20 from NHTSA and does better at IIHS. Yet it has $1200 cash on the hood right now.
I just hope the Tribeca and large sedan don't push the new Forester and Impreza debuts back. They gotta keep the product fresh. The Forester has been on the same chassis since 1998, basically. Same basic engine, same AWD system.
I wouldn't worry about it. The Impreza, Forester, and Legacy all trace back to the same platform anyhow, if you go further back in time.
There were actually huge changes in the 03 Forester. In fact, many of the changes (like aluminum hood/roof/hatch and interior styling themes) just made it to the bread-and-butter 05 Outback. If anything, the Forester is ahead of the cycle.
I think the new Impreza is slated for 06/07, right on schedule.
I'm not sure if the whole unibody did change. It did get aluminum bumper beams, front and rear, and the aluminum roof rails, but that might have been all that changed.
If so, that's mostly changes on the surface, i.e. a reskin, still not a full redesign.
The wheelbase is exactly the same, and track changed only slightly and even that may have been due to the rims and/or the new wheel bearings.
It's funny, because CR goes as far as stating it was a refresh.
Any how, that's all semantics. To put it simply the Forester has indeed progressed, but IMHO its competitors have progressed at a quicker pace. So while I still think it's best-in-class, it doesn't enjoy the lead it once did.
Comments
This R1e concept is much more successful in terms of styling, as compared to the production R1. Much larger wheels, and a much more graceful body shape, with better integrated headlights.
Even so, the production R1 is a step forward from the R2.
Bob
http://www.fhi.co.jp/about/english/index.html
Note: Press release is in downloadable PDF format.
Bob
Not sure I like the R2 coupe, the 4 door looks bigger. The coupe looks more toy-like than the 4 door already is.
2.5T WRX is a good idea, I'll guess that it'll get 247hp, just to remain below the L-GT.
The STi will get that bump to 330hp that has been rumored.
-juice
In a sense, the R1 suffers from the same malady that the Baja suffered from; that is, going from "concept" to "production," it got castrated visually.
Bob
http://www.globemegawheels.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20- - 041014/WHINSIDE14/cars/
Bob
-juice
Interesting, and so much for my theory of that name disappearing in the future...
Bob
becos of its small size, it fits better in europe
-juice
http://www.subaru.co.jp/legacy/30rspecb/index.html
Bob
We'll go double-or-nothing since I kinda won the Odyssey bet.
Deal?
I say we just get the STi.
-juice
Bob
Actually, VCM is a first for the class, but it's already been in use in the Civic hybrid for half a decade so we couldn't call that a break through that Bob was looking for.
-juice
I guess it's back on the fence till next May!
Bob
Bob
In other words, if the Tribeca gets a 3.3l, the STi with be a 3.3l turbo.
-juice
Bob
Personally, I am very satisfied with the power of my OB XT LTD, and even then, how often can one really use that power safely (other than your local track)? Isn't this (h6 turbo) just going over the top, and will there be a market large enough for Subaru to justify offering/building it in NA?
I guess to a certain degree it will depend on the premium for this model, but based on the premium for the 05 turbos, is it a stretch to suggest that it will be priced too high for most? I would suggest that the majority of Subaru's target market prefer Subaru focuses its "premium offers" on other options as mentioned in other forums (ie mem seats, NAV, adjustable pedals, telescoping steering etc, etc etc) rather than over-pricing to add even more power.
Personally, my gut tells me that we probably will not see Spec B here (especially not in Canada), but I don't purport to know much about automaker marketing strategy.
Anyway, I throw this out there for comments/thoughts of you more knowledgeable folks.
That would argue in favor of the Spec B.
STi is all about having a halo car to fly the flag. If Subaru wants to be premium they'll need it.
-juice
Bob
The H6 is not a down-low torque engine. It still prefers revs. So while it is more linear it still doesn't produce the satisfying torque of a bigger displacement engine.
They could address that with a 3.3l or 3.5l.
But as it stands, the 3.0l H6 doesn't offer enough of a difference compared to the turbo to sell in any real volume.
-juice
Bob
-juice
Nicholas
-juice
Just what a mid sized Subie sedan needs.
tom
Actually the interior could use some work, the Legacy actually is a step up in terms of materials and plactics.
-juice
The 2005 model may be improved.
On the subject of the Type B: I am one of those who would be very happy with the H-6 Liberty 3.0 litre. All we need is a VDC H-6 GT; it would compete well as a reliable alternative with more interior room than an Audi A4 quattro...and at a significantly lower price. But note that the A4 will have the 250 HP engine from the new A6 soon. That might suggest that the torque level of the H-6 3.0 could be a little lacking.
The G35 is at least acceptable. I expected more from an Infiniti, though. Acura and Lexus models put it to shame.
-juice
Pilot has a 3.5l V6. If the Tribeca comes out with a 3.0l H6 and costs more and it's smaller, it's going to sit in dealer lots collecting cob webs.
Back to my never ending rant about not wanting Subaru to move upscale, remember when I said VW was setting themselves up for high fixed costs and would suffer as a result of Piech's huge ego.
VW will lost more than ONE BILLION dollars this year!
<juice does his I-told-you-so dance>
It's your birthday, it's your birthday
Now, should Subaru do the same thing they did, i.e. move upscale and try to compete in the luxury arena?
-juice
How much 'upscale' do you want to go? That depends on how much demand there is for it... Certainly Subaru can go upscale; just don't offer a $50k car and everything will be fine!
VW should have known, that should have just been an Audi all along. That was just plain stupid.
Even the Touareg, while getting a warmer reception than the W8 or Phaeton, is being discounted heavily. If it were an Audi, and I mean just change the badge alone, I bet it would be discounted less.
-juice
Bob
-juice
VW's problem is it's failure to address and correct the growing quality problems and continuing cusomer service issues. Acura, Lexus built their reputation on quality. Their cars weren't particularly refined but they were respectable and reliable.
The upscale cars VW has done are pretty good. The W8 was too pricey. The Toureag is nice the. Phaeton was a bad decision but it is a nice car. These cars are sitting on the lots not so much for price as for perception of quality of service and reliability.
Subaru is following the mold of Acura and Lexus with a bit more of a performance mindset.
Subaru is far more measured and these steps towards upscale luxury are proceeding deliberatly. The new Subaru's headed by the new redesigned Legacy is just the first step. The Halifax or Tribeca or whatever will be the second step. If that is well received then we will see more probably, if not then the minimalist will have nothing to worry about.
The worry seems to be he price. Well 30-35K is going to be the numbers I bet. If it has the nice interior features, nice leather, dual air, NAV, 6 disc CD, fold flat seats, full air bags it will do ok. If it crash tests well then it will really sell. Then if it has some performance then it will be sweet. I would like to see a new 300HP H6 turbo with cylinder deactivation in the new Halifax, though it will probably start with the NA 250HP version.
Hybrid will have to come to models soon as the next luxury feature.
If this goes as planned for Subaru then a next level larger sedan and wagon platform will be next. 3.5L+ H6 Turbo or maybe a H8 next.
It's not quality problems, it's old product, past overdue for fresh designs. The Jetta is 7 years old. Passat has been around since, what, '98 or so? With only one face-lift.
Sales are down. Shocker!
They pulled an Isuzu. They starved their main products for cash, instead spending money on an ill-conceived move to a price arena that their dealers were not ready to support (we agree on that point).
Luxury cars don't have to be highly reliable, the Japanese have really only been a major player in the last decade, in an industry that is more than a century old. Plus VW could never beat Lexus in that game.
Phaeton is sitting on lots because of price. If it were $40-50k, even with less content, it would have stood a chance. At $70-80k, that's stretching it even for an Audi, much less a VW. Badges and labels are very, very important at those elevated prices.
Look at this very topic, recently we've been helping someone shop for a luxury car for his parents, VW would not even get consideration while much cheaper Mercedes E500s would.
Subaru is being more calculated, and I don't think they'll price a sedan at $80 grand any time soon.
But still, look around, people are getting Legacys at $400 under invoice already, a brand new "upscale" model.
Meanwhile BMW 3 series commanded near MSRP for how long? Forever, basically.
Subaru shoppers expect value. New AWD competitors are now abundant, is Subaru going to retreat upward in price and then expect volume to increase?
Ain't happening.
I just hope the Tribeca and large sedan don't push the new Forester and Impreza debuts back. They gotta keep the product fresh. The Forester has been on the same chassis since 1998, basically. Same basic engine, same AWD system.
Sounds eerily familiar to me. Can you say Passat?
-juice
Ed
Audi is luxury, VW is the people's car. That's the right formula to have.
I'm not sure the A3 is even a good idea, to be honest. The A3 is what the Golf should be (i.e. attractive).
Also, the GTI R32 kills the A3, and that makes no sense at all.
Cancel the W8 (already planned) and the Phaeton, and don't replace them. Cancel the plans for the W12 Touareg also. Too little volume to justify that one.
Instead, Audi is getting a Pikes Peak model based on the Touareg, put whatever upgrade engine you have in that instead.
To be honest I'd phase out the complex and expensive W engines completely.
-juice
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-10-27-crash-test_x.htm
Remember, though, they just got some bad press for the Legacy in the IIHS side impact tests. Not once, but twice. Even after the recall the score was only Marginal.
Also, Forester already had 20/20 from NHTSA and does better at IIHS. Yet it has $1200 cash on the hood right now.
-juice
I wouldn't worry about it. The Impreza, Forester, and Legacy all trace back to the same platform anyhow, if you go further back in time.
There were actually huge changes in the 03 Forester. In fact, many of the changes (like aluminum hood/roof/hatch and interior styling themes) just made it to the bread-and-butter 05 Outback. If anything, the Forester is ahead of the cycle.
I think the new Impreza is slated for 06/07, right on schedule.
Craig
RAV4 and CR-V now offer stability control. The Honda now has a 5 speed, and both have gotten substantially more powerful base engines.
Forester has the turbo, of course.
-juice
Refreshes usually involve minor changes, like the 03-04 Impreza change.
Craig
If so, that's mostly changes on the surface, i.e. a reskin, still not a full redesign.
The wheelbase is exactly the same, and track changed only slightly and even that may have been due to the rims and/or the new wheel bearings.
It's funny, because CR goes as far as stating it was a refresh.
Any how, that's all semantics. To put it simply the Forester has indeed progressed, but IMHO its competitors have progressed at a quicker pace. So while I still think it's best-in-class, it doesn't enjoy the lead it once did.
-juice