Subaru Crew - Future Models II

ateixeira · May 2005

The X has painted cladding now. So they stepped it up a little bit, and then the Limited model slots above that.

So while there aren't exact equivalents, the new X would fit between the old X and XS, and the new Limited would slot above the XS.

I'm not 100% sure but I think torque is unchanged, or at least not yet published. HP is 173 for the base and 230 for the turbo.

-juice

once_for_all · May 2005

a couple years ago, I checked out the Fuji Heavy Industries web site. They do have a lot of things going on, including owning Robin (a former French small engine company--around 5hp units) and aeronautical stuff.

IIRC, they post financials on the web page and you can check to see how well they are doing.

IMO, being diversified and global is a good thing. The US market is not as emerging as one could want for best returns.

John

jeffmc · May 2005

Unless I'm mistaken, GM owns 20% of FHI, so you would own no part of GM. Like you would be, they are only an investor in FHI, albeit a powerful, influential investor.
There's a ton of information about stock here, at FHI's site: http://www.fhi.co.jp/fina/english/share_info/stock.html

rochcom · May 2005

From the preliminary specs, looks like torque stays the same, but max is reached at 4400 rather than 4000. Having to rev higher to get the same torque seems like a step back. The extra horses won't do anything if top speed is still regulated, so it looks like an advertising advantage but little else. OTOH Subaru claims a performance increase, so maybe gearing is changed.

Also, Forester X is back to DOHC from single, as on the XT. I wonder if that means back to interference design.

sduford · May 2005

That is not necessarily true. Even though the peak happens at higher RPM, the torque curve may still be flatter overall, and provide more torque in all RPM ranges.

I remember that my old Volvo 850 had a torque peak in the 4000+ RPM range, but that engine produced 80% or more of it's max torque from 2000-5000 RPM. So the actual peak was unimportant.

Sly

rsholland · May 2005

on what the new facelifted Impreza might look like:

Bob

ateixeira · May 2005

It should rev a lot better. The current SOHC engine loses steam at high rpm, the redline is lower than the older DOHC engine that had less torque.

The new 2.5l will have AVCS plus more precise valve control with the double cams in each cylinder bank, so I bet it will be peppier.

-juice

ateixeira · May 2005

That blue one looks really good. The grille appears subtle and blends right in.

The gray one is too mish-mash, they'd need to sort out the lights better.

-juice

kens · May 2005

Those are two very different interpretations of what the headlights will look like. Inteesting how the grille looks the same on the two however.

And no, nothing of interest to translate on the covers.

Ken

rsholland · May 2005

There have been a number of "projected images" over the last 6 months or so, and one common theme here is that the Impreza's headlights will not be above the grilleor at least part of the lighting will not be above the headlights. So my guess is what we have seen here and elsewhere are fairly close.

But as Ken noted, even though they are similar, there's a world of difference in the details; which just goes to show that there can be a huge variation in how different artists "interpret" the basically same information.

Bob

jeffmc · May 2005

I also have seen that there will be a limited production (500 units) model ran in July or August that will have 2 tone leather sport seats(sedan only) in black and red. Could this possibly be a Spec. B trial for the US to see what the reception would be? Let's hope.....

Rather than a Spec B, those black & red seats may indicate a Legacy B4 Blitzen. Subaru is allocating a few to New Zealand this year, so maybe they're looking at the U.S., too. That would be a nice change. Sign me up for the sound system in this thing.
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/BU0504/S00242.htm

rsholland · May 2005

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/05/subaru_hybrid_p.html

rsholland · May 2005

with thanks to Jon in CT.

Bob

kens · May 2005

Interesting. I wonder what they mean by "Evolution and sharing of the Legacy platform".

Also noticed that a face lift for the Legacy other than the US is already slated for next year!

Ken

rsholland · May 2005

Good point Ken I bet "evolution" is the facelift, and maybe "sharing" could be another Saabaru? Or it could be the next Impreza, as it's rumored to be on a shortened Legacy platform.

Bob

kens · May 2005

If the next Impreza is a shortened Legacy, I'd like to understand Subaru's rationale.

The GC8 Impreza, IIRC was basically a shortened Legacy. Solid, but heavy for it's size. I wonder if weight is considered an issue with the next gen Impreza.

Ken

robr2 · May 2005

When they say shortened Legacy, it is more likely a shortened Legacy platform. Basic structure (attachment points, windshield rake) will be the same but it will be tweaked for a smaller vehicle.

Much in the same way as the new Jetta and upcoming Passat are based on the same platform but they are very different autos.

ateixeira · May 2005

Interesting link, Bob.

What's even more interesting is that Toyota is using NiMH batteries right now for the Highlander hybrid, yet that article mentions FHI will supply Li-Ion batteries to Toyota. Those are better batteries, note that notebook computers made that swap a couple of years ago.

I think that chart is already outdated. Saab probably will not get that crossover.

Platform sharing is a funny thing. The Volvo P2 underpins the S60, V70, XC90, S80, and now the Ford Five Hundred and Freestyle! Top it off most offer the same Haldex AWD system. Yet they are remarkably different.

-juice

rsholland · May 2005

pics of engine over at nabisco.

Bob

njswamplands · May 2005

so what does that mean to performance?

rsholland · May 2005

Better breathing and more performance.

Bob

njswamplands · May 2005

hp? torque? bigger torque rpm range? mpg?

rsholland · May 2005

Won't know for sure until it arrives. The current AVCS system only works on intake valves, whereas the Dual AVCS works on both the intake and exhaust valves. Maybe Colin or somebody else can better elaborate as to the actual benefits of the Dual AVCS system.

My guess is all performance aspects will be improved somewhat, much in the same way that just single AVCS improved on non-AVCS motors. I think what held this back from the US-market until now were emission issues. I guess they must have solved that. Dual AVCS has been used on JDM STis for a while, now apparently it's coming over here.

Bob

kens · May 2005

From nabisco:

cam timing devices dont really add power, they just shift around the power band of whatever the profile cam your running by changing the amount of overlap thats present at different RPMs. To make more power, regardless of AVCS, you need bigger cams, turbo, etc.

Ken

ateixeira · May 2005

AVCS = VANOS in BMW-speak
Dual AVCS = Double VANOS

-juice

locke2c · May 2005

this is correct, sort of. VANOS was originally cam-phasing only, as was AVCS, but now AVCS has the ability to change valve lift too.

it probably will only help emissions and low- to mid-rpm, but it is possible that the change would allow Subaru to get aggressive with the high RPM performance and maintain good low-end tractability.

honestly-- I doubt they'd do that. but who knows.

~Colin
ps, haven't read the thread on nabisco yet

sweet_subie · May 2005

did you notice that forester XT for 2006 only comes in Limited trim. I guess legacy/OB to follow suit.

http://vocuspr.vocus.com/VocusPR30/Temp/Sites/1571/28f3cb03106d46359ba57ce82317cc1a/06_For- ester_Release.pdf

locke2c · May 2005

huuuuge mistake. the turbocharged models are bringing recognition and respect to the brand... this is clearly a money play, I have no doubt that that cloth models are selling fine. at least cloth Legacy GTs aren't all that rare; not sure about FXTs.

if the naturally aspirated 2.5L made more power I could kind of see this. but the gulf between the XT and other trims is too great not to offer a cloth model.

~Colin

bluesubie · May 2005

That's really nuts! At least they're still offering a manual transmission though. Nothing surprises me anymore with SoA's packaging.

I also see that the 5-speed gets dual-coned synchros on first and third. The same ones that were toasted on my car.

-Dennis

once_for_all · May 2005

did I read it correctly--all XTs get moonroof; only premium X gets all weather package, rear discs, but MUST come with the moonroof too?

If so, I am glad I bought the XS as we did NOT want the moonroof. But the other features are great (alloys, rear disc, heated seats, 6 CD, etc.).

I understand the need for efficiency, but I don't understand how forcing buyers into packages makes for more sales.

John

alpha01 · May 2005

I agree. I dont see how these packaging decisions could possibly affect sales in a positive way. Aside from a few features here and there, the 2005 model line-up seemed much more flexible for the consumer. If anything, I think the huge features gap between the X and Premium Pkg will alienate lower end buyers, and the unavailability of a basic XT will hurt sales for those who dont care for the frou-frou crap like leather.

It will be interesting to see how sales pan out, although none of will really know if the monthly sales reports continue to be issued in as confusing a fashion as they were last month.

All of this and plus we lost Patti as the Edmunds.com contact.

Is anyone behind the wheel at SoA? Remember the company wants to hit 250K units sold in calendar 2006. Holding Impreza, Legacy, and Forester sales flat from last year, the Tribeca will have to make up about 70K units to hit that. Uphill battle?

Joe

rsholland · May 2005

"Im in San Francisco at the 2005 National Business conference.

Just a quick few notes before my laptop battery dies.

Photoshops are dead on for the Impreza. THe 06 impreza has the new front grill. THere is also a "TR" version or "tuner ready", it has 230hp 2.5l turbo, leather, and the STi brakes from the years past STi's (not the brembos, the regular 4-pots)

theres also a limited production Spec-B legacy GT with the 2.5T motor, not the flat 6 that europe gets. We do get the 18" rims, bilsteins, and red leather interior, with nav and sport pedals... one color only.

The new foresters are nice, great face lift.

The B9 through the hills of sanfran is amazing. Took every corner like a champ! I hammered it. It took everything I threw at it...

Pics to come!"

Bob

veritasusa · May 2005

Given the direction that SOA seems to be heading, I think I will hang on to my 2005 Forester XS and quite possibly spend future money I would have to spend in trading in for a later model in replacing the sohc 165 HP engine with the later dohc 173 HP version. I might even try to fit a 5 speed auto in place of the present 4 speed as well. Those two upgrades should be relatively easy bolt-ons.

That way I can end up with an even better car without having to put up with a moonroof and other stuff I neither want nor need.

Now to do some research to see if the reported beefed up rear cross member is a bolt-on as well . . .

locke2c · May 2005

the 5 speed automatic would be a worthwhile upgrade, and you'd probably need the rear end from a donor car also.

however the neglible gain in HP definitely is not worth installing a new ECU and possibly (probably?) new wiring harness.

~Colin

ateixeira · May 2005

Yep, looks like if you want a turbo you'd better want a moonroof and leather as well. At least for Forester and Outback

For the OB, though, you can now get the H6 with cloth. It's just a change of strategy. The turbos were more popular, so they put them on the more profitable models. What Colin said.

Spec B with a 2.5T 6-speed sounds like a dream! Think of it as a luxury STi.

Now I want that Spec B. I might put my wife in one just to see...

-juice

locke2c · May 2005

not even close. it has the same power as a regular Legacy GT. it is an appearance and handling package.

-- monotube blistein struts (hopefully springs too, at least a little stiffer

-- older STi 4 piston brakes... not the huge red brembos from the current model, the black SUBARU emblazoned 4 pots.

-- six speed manual... subaru sure is stingy about deploying this gem of a transmission.

-- unique seats and interior

that's about it
~Colin

ateixeira · May 2005

Maybe I should have written "poor man's STi". I think until you got it on a track most people wouldn't notice the difference.

And no, you are not "most people".

-juice

once_for_all · May 2005

I wouldn't count on it. You may also have emissions issues and the throttle by wire issue. Automatic shift counsel wouldn't work either.

That assumes that the old 4speed auto half shafts bolt right up to the new 5speed auto, which who knows when we will see that? Motor mounts are likely to be different too.

Unfortunately it isn't like the good old days when we could plug and play.

John

veritasusa · May 2005

Actually, my 2005 SX already has the throttle by wire. The 2005 FXT already uses the dohc engine and I doubt that Subaru had to make major body alterations to get it into the engine bay. And from what I have seen, there is really no major change in the basic structure of the 2006 - everything is cosmetic in the grille and bumper area and the like.

I see your point about the shift console being different for the 5-speed auto tranny, but any changes in the engine control should be able to be accomodated by a change in the brain box. In fact, I'll bet the touted improvements in the transmission come about only from reprogramming the control, not from any mechanical change within the just redesigned transmission itself.

And FL doesn't have any sort of vehicle inspection, at least not in my part of the state.

As I said, it might be fun to spend the thousands I would lose in depreciation in trading it in for a car that has things I don't want in making it into an even better version of what I already have and like pretty well.

A lot will dpend on what Subaru does for the next major change in 2007. I know I would never go up to a Tribeca and I don't like the station wagon type body of the Outback/Legacy - more weight and size with no real advantage in interior room.

once_for_all · May 2005

maybe it won't be a problem, but I think that is unlikely.

I suspect Subaru will have to change their content (again) in 2007, this 2006 Forester lineup is very restricted. We were crying for changes in the FXT (eg manual with premium) etc, but it looks like we have compromises all the way around instead.

John

rsholland · May 2005

from the dealer (at nabisco) at the national dealer meeting is the 2.5 Spec-B has a 5-speed, not a 6-speed, brick red leather seats and matching door panels.

He said the '06 STi was dead on to this pic:

Also, a "battleship gray" (how he described it) will be available on the Forester.

Bob

sweet_subie · May 2005

this lacks character, ugly !

sduford · May 2005

Ugly perhaps, but it has a lot more character then the current one.

rsholland · May 2005

Both the WRX and STi at San Fran had Legacy/Tribeca-like outside mirrors with turn signals.

Bob

locke2c · May 2005

they'd get rid of the mailbox / birdcatcher and use a front-mounted intercooler already.

~c

ateixeira · May 2005

Keeping in mind that is a chop, I think it'll look great.

It will successfully bridge the gap between the Legacy (headlights) and the Tribeca (grille). Perfect strategy to get people used to the new look.

I like that better than the current STi, though the 9-2x is arguably the best looking WRX. :P

-juice

ateixeira · May 2005

Why just a 5 speed?

So they are importing just the Bilstein shocks? That's it?

The trans was the biggest upgrade.

-juice

rsholland · May 2005

18" wheels too I would assume.

As Colin said, it's primarily a sport suspension and appearance package, nothing more. I heard it was coming only in one color too, but I don't know what that is. Finally, I think there will only be 500 Spec Bs offered this year.

Bob

ateixeira · May 2005

That's stuff you could do on your own.

Hardly seems worth the effort. I like the seats, rims, even suspension, but does it go far enough?

-juice

rsholland · May 2005

True, but both BMW and MB offer similar packages.

Bob

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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