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Comments
-juice
Offer this in addition to the non-turbo 1.5. The Fit offers a "Sport" version. This could compete with that.
Bob
13.5 seconds would be worth it if you were getting the economy of an R1 or R2. If the Impreza were offered as a lightweight hatch in 1.5L light turbo "WRX Jr" (RSHolland Edition) trim, and mileage was at 40MPG highway, it'd be good.
Same suspension, same steering feel, same steering ratio, same engine, same transmission, same brakes etc., between both versions.
The Yaris sport is also the same. Some extra body cladding but no other difference.
* buyers are more cost conscious
* fuel economy is a high priority
AWD "costs" about $1500, let's say, so that is a 10% price penalty. On a Tribeca, cut that in half, it's an almost meaningless 5% and with buyers less price sensitive.
Only the SX4 offers it now, that I can think of. So at least it won't have too much competitition in the snow belt.
As for fuel economy, I'm sure even a 1.5l won't match the class leaders. And since performance won't be part of the equation, it'll have to appeal to snow belters only.
I think a 1.8-2.0l would make more sense for the USA.
-juice
If they want to compete in the 1.5L class, which is selling well in terms of inventory levels but NOT selling huge overall volume, they need to use a small hatchback.
~Colin
This would just be a low-end version, just like the base Caliber.
Having said that, I don't think Subaru should put an Impreza at that price point. It'll cheapen the whole lineup. You can't sell an STI at $33k if you have a fuel sipper base model at $15k.
-juice
The Caliber is bigger--heavier, at least-- than a Pontiac Vibe / Toyota Matrix or Mazda 3 wagon and none of them are part of the 100-115 HP 1.5L "B car" segment. Neither is the Impreza, so Bob's comment/question stumps me.
~Colin
Took some cost cutting (torsion beam rear axle and assembly in Mexico) to do that, though. I don't think I want to see Subaru do something like that, it'll cheapen the Impreza.
-juice
In a perfect world, yes, Subaru should produce a "lighter" Honda Fit-like car, using this 1.5 engine. But as we all know the world is not perfect...
A "proper" all-new 1.5 Subie will take time to develop. FHI and Toyota are still debating as to whether to use the Yaris (or some other Toyota), add AWD and market that vehicle as a Subaru, or if it would be better for Subaru to do their own version—which would be 100% Subaru. I just read this the other day.
The fact of the matter is the 1.5L market is HOT here in the USA—now! What I'm proposing is a quick-and-easy way for Subaru to get their feet wet in that class of car here in North America—with the hope of a proper 1.5L entry to appear down the road, as that will take time to develop. I see this as merely a "time-is-of-the-essence" stop-gap solution.
Also, this would go on the all-new Impreza platform. We don't know what this will weigh. In 1.5 form it might come in well under 3K? But then again, maybe not? Maybe there's a light-weight SWB 3-door version waiting in the wings, which could house this engine?
Also remember the (tall) Forester also will likely share this platform, as it has in the past. Now imagine a short version of this vehicle with hardly any rear overhang, and perhaps even a shorter wheelbase. Subaru has a great knack of mixing and matching parts... Even so, this will take time to develop. Just dropping the 1.5 into the new Impreza would still be the quickest and cheapest way to enter this market.
Bob
I see some problems with the above argument. The 1.5L market is "HOT" not specifically for the smallish engine. That is the least of its selling points. It is HOT because of the fuel sipping nature of the vehicles equipped with it (Fit, Yaris, Scion etc). Putting a 1.5L into a relatively porky product like the Impreza, will result in miserable acceleration and miserable mileage...a double whammy of disadvantages. It will fail in the marketplace and Subaru does not have the product lineup depth to suffer such reversals comfortably. I am surprised that they were able to weather the Tribeca reversal without going under.
Moreover, as pointed out above, it will cheapen the line-up, which will also have to support the 30k+ STi.
I agree! Older friends just ordered a Nissan Versa. They liked the LARGER engine in a big inside, narrow easy-to-park car. Also the center speedometer of the Toyota products was an automatic veto for safety reasons. But price was important: they chose the Versa S over the SL with more features because of price....and they are by most standards affluent.
They did not even consider the Impreza, though they like riding in my Outback VDC wagon.
Get rid of the center speedometer in the Yaris, increase the displacement to at least 1.8l and call it a Subaru.
Finally, there isn't an AWD car sold here in the 1.5L range. So it isn't as quick or as frugal at the Fit et al, it'll go in the snow whereas the others might not. I think it could sell well in the traditional Subaru strongholds, such as the snowbelt states.
Bob
You didn't comment on my Yarbaru suggestion.
Dave
I guess it could happen, but as you know I'm not fond of badge-engineered cars. I never cared for the Justy for that very reason (it also wasn't a great car).
Bob
I think subaru needs to maintain its boxer+symmetrical awd brand identity.
What about stretching the R1/R2 chassis and dropping a bigger boxer in there from 1.5 to 2.0L displacement. Or just bring the Stella over here.
I think the current impreza's sheetmetal is too sedan-like when you look at others in the B segment. R1 or R2 sheetmetal is more like it.
Eric
Now add AWD for another $1500, and you're talking $16,500 for the slowest car in its class.
It would get clobbered.
-juice
I think the trick in this very price-conscious market is build a vehicle out of as few parts as possible. I'm talking about the main body structure, and less so with the running gear. For example, can the unit body be made up of as few parts as possible, maybe even using recycled plastic soda bottles? They need to use some out-of-the-box thinking in terms of construction, I think.
Bob
-juice
Forget the AWD at the Yarbaru price point, but add rudimentary (probably Toyota) stability control like most VW models. The extra performance of a larger engine (say a tweaked Corolla's) might interest many. Perhaps 0-60 in 7.5 seconds with manual trans would do it.
Dave
Bob
With a front-end like the Euro Legacy, I would have no hesitation about my choice...Legacy GT all the way. Wonder why such designs don't make their way across the pond.
Bob
Translation: at 110hp, AWD is a liability.
With 180hp, AWD is an asset.
How 'bout a hot hatch? Subaru has never done well doing what everyone else does. R2 turbo, maybe?
-juice
I wonder if it will. Already there are rumors that in the US-market, Subaru might drop the Legacy wagon and the OB sedan altogether, due to lack of sales/demand. Then retain the wagon in the OB line and the sedan in the Legacy line. Emotions aside, that definitely makes good business sense for a small manufacturer like Subaru, even though I personally am not interested in a high-riding wagon like the OB. Also, a Legacy sedan, however nicely presented, would not interest me either. I need a true wagon with AWD.
Bob
For bigger companies like toyota, nissan, honda--they can swing it...but it might be difficult for subaru given the lackluster sales of the 'Beca. If the Tribeca had sold better that might have helped subsidize the B-segment entry, but since it didn't, you have to ask where is the money going to come from.
I wonder if a little more parts sharing with toyota or its suppliers wouldn't help. Stuff like electronics: sensors, sound systems etc. That nobody would really object to but might get a better deal buying in bulk with toyota that would cover some of the cost.
Eric
Eric
Subaru was exploring the appeal of a 2200 lb awd wagon with 180 hp, normally aspirated a few years ago through some internet exposure of the tentative specifications. I was one of those who responded to Subaru with a "Not Interested" comment. I stated at that time (pre $3 gas) that the lighter weight seemed a safety problem in a world of Tahoes and Expeditions.
The Subaru product planners apparently believed Fugi had the ability to build such a vehicle. I have not heard more since.
Dave
Subaru's vehicle structures hold up extremely well in crashes - the light weight wouldn't worry me unless they stopped using their current ring-reinforcement technology to save some of that weight. Safety first, fun second, in my book.
From building Camrys in Indiana and from using FHI engineers to design a car for Toyota. That's gotta really help the bottom line. Plus, the total US sales volume is up a little. Tribeca woulda helped more, but let's see what next year's "re-skin" does for that model's sales. Overseas exports of Tribeca should begin helping, too, since those are all manufactured in the US. I don't think there are many exclusive mechanical bits in Tribeca ('til the rumored larger engine comes out), so it can't be too expensive for them to build.
I still prefer my 3600 pound Outback 3.0 VDC to something that small, though the lightweight's power to weight ratio would make it fun to drive.
2200 pounds? I'd be really surprised they could do that with a 1.5L car; maybe 1.0L or smaller car.
Bob
I can't remember whether the engine was specified as 1.8 or 2 liters, but it was not 1.5.
Dave
-juice
It's not whether they could build it, but at what price for that lightweight, carbon fibre and alloy construction. It is questionable whether there is an adequate market for a premium small car.
Dave
-juice
The Subaru Crew Chat is on tonight. The chat room opens at 8:45PM ET Hope to see YOU there! Check out the schedule
B
John
Still about $2.50 in Potomac, though.
Diesel is even worse, about $2.80. Ouch.
I'll be tempted to get a diesel but it seems like diesel costs more than gas most of the time, around here at least.
-juice
The refiners are letting us pay off their refinery adjustments for the Ultra low sulphur (15ppm) diesel.
MNSteve
http://www.subaru-global.com/
Bob