a) Reducing the width of the tires in the new model (215mm vs 205mm). I believe in the previous generation wagon (not Sedan), even putting on 225mm wide tires were sub-optimal. With a size reduction to 205mm, that situation would have worsened, I am assuming.
b) Changing the brakes from the 4-pot setup to a 2-pot setup in the front - big step backward, since brakes are the last thing they should have compromised on (assuming there is a compromise by this move).
c) Retaining the 4EAT (in the WRX), when the whole world has moved on to 5EAT and beyond, for pretty much anything in the near-30K **sub-compact** class. If they really wanted to retain the 4EAT, they should have done it in the lesser Imprezas. The WRX truly deserves a significant step-up, lack of whose presence is especially galling, since an off-the-shelf 5EAT is alive and kicking in several Subaru models operating in roughly the same price segment.
d) Reduction of space by going to a steeply sloped hatchback rear design from the less-sloped wagon design. The overall length has not changed much (less than 2" ?)
e) I like the outer design of the current Impreza wagon. The new one (hatch) does not thrill me, from an exterior-looks perspective. One specifically nasty aspect is the clear-lights on the WRX (hopefully can be cured by switching with the other Imprezas).
The steps forward by the new model, were already listed by Bob's previous post above.
Yeah just get ready to stock wheel bearings, cause if 205 is the stock size tire, that means that if you want wider you'll be putting on an offset rim way out which means that you'll be putting more stress on the bearings.
I'm guessing that the STi will get flared fenders so it can run wider tires.
205mm tires may have helped them get that 10% increase in fuel economy. Just speculating here.
2 pots vs. 4: paisan thinks it's good as it'll mean an easier brake job. I had to buy a special tool to do my Forester's brakes, and the Miata is definitely a lot easier. My pads wore at a slight angle so it didn't distribute the braking power as evenly as I hoped. I'm torn on this one. :confuse:
I moved from a WRX 2-pot caliper on the Legacy for track days to the FHI 4-pot caliper not only for the better braking (no caliper deflection), easier pad replacement, but the fact that the pads were $20-30 CHEAPER for the 4-pots v. the 2-pots since they are the same pads used on the 300zx as well as the FHI caliper.
I belive Hawk HP+ for the 2pots are around $125 for the 4-pots they are $85.
Yeah you can have the pads in and out in like 2 min. Pull the pins, pull the pads with a needlenose pliers and they are out. Push the pistons in with channel locks and slip in the new pads.
You don't even need to pull the bolts off them at all!
Heck I have Team IAC practicing changing pads in the pit-lane! Actually we haven't started practice yet but we are planning on pit-stop practice once the warm weather is here. Bring the car in, fuel it up, change the pads, adjust the struts clean the windows and lights.
The only thing we could hope for is that those pics somehow were wrong in that they showed a regular impreza which would have the narrower tires and 2-pot brakes....
Perhaps also to permit the wider track in the same total body width while maintaining a tight turning circle. Fuel economy improvement for CAFE may also be critical with the huge penalty inherent with all wheel drive. Dave
There have been a couple of '08 Outback sightings at Washington, DC area dealers, so you might want to check your local dealers.
The base Outback apparently no longer has the steel wheels from the Forester. It now has black steel wheels, with wheelcovers (boo!). Also, it looks like the cruise control has been moved to the steering wheel with buttons. Not sure how I feel about that, as I've felt the current CC control stalk was perfect, so why they're changing this is a mystery?
It now has black steel wheels, with wheelcovers (boo!).
Much agreed. I did not really feel I was sacrificing anything going with the Basic in terms of the steel vs. aluminum wheels. I very much dislike covers, though, so had they not been decent looking, silver painted wheels, it would have been more of a consideration.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
I mean, why? It ends up heavier, more unsprung weight, more fragile, easy to break/steal, some times fall off.
Frustrating.
On another note, anyone been to Bill Kolb Subaru? They have used 06 Tribecas dirt cheap. They're very tempting at $22.8k for Ltd/7 pass/NAV with 20 something k miles. They have one with NAV and DVD in the $24k range with fewer miles, too.
A new one would mean about a $8-9 grand jump in price, with the same equipment.
Hard to say Mike. If I had the money, yeah, I'd opt for the spec.B. Not wild about the spec.B's summer-only tires though. The H-6 Legacy has 18" all-season tires, if that matters to you.
You may want to drive the GT 5-speed and spec.B. Maybe the spec.B's 6-speed will require more shifting than you want in an urban car, because of the closer gear splits?
Good call I already drove the 05 LGT 5MT, and the landlord at the shop in NJ has an 07 SpecB so I'll take his out for a spin one weekend. With my current position the most I'd be doing is getting into 1st gear, maybe 2nd to move the car for alternate side of the street parking rules! Been taking the subway for the past 2 weeks, haven't taken it on a regular basis in years.
6-Speed: solid upgrade, because all the hardware is beefier. Not practical to add this to the other car, but it's gotta be worth $1200 or so.
Torsen LSD Rear: ~$900 just for parts, you could install a front diff yourself and probably get better results. But still worth it.
VDC: Stand-alone this is a few hundred, call it $400. The way you drive you might leave it off all the time.
Navi: You're a techie and will use it, but it's not the best system. I love the voice, and knowing you, you'll find a way around the "safety" feature that doesn't let you or even a passenger use it while in motion. Priced at $1800 stand-alone, and integrated does look nice. I'll say it's worth it just for Becky's voice, she's far more sensual than the lady in my Garmin.
18" Wheels: tough call, because it's an incremental cost here. Plus you're in NYC, so pot holes may eat them up. I don't think they add a lot of value for you, but let's say the set is worth a $600 upgrade price.
That adds up to roughly $4900 of extras. You'd have to add the cost of the Bilsteins, which are surely better than stock. Then there are the black/blue two-tone leather seats, again, if you like them.
So it's arguably worth the extra cost, if, big IF, you want the extras that it comes with. The bonus is that it's a special model that will always be respected. One lapped a road course quicker than BMW/Audi/Infiniti in a R&T comparo.
If Subaru offered the GT with the 6 speed it would be a no-brainer, but as it stands now it's a much tougher call. I think I'd get the spec.B if I thought I could afford it easily.
Thanks for the breakdown Juice. I'd say the 6MT is worth a bit more in parts than 1200 but you are right on the other parts. Heck if I could just lob off the Navi, it would be a no-brainer.
Believe it or not the VDC on the Armada isn't too intrusive and I only turn it off when I'm doing a burnout!
Those are better, Bob! The front end is still a bit long & beak-ish, but the look is pretty good, I think. Probably still change the grille and/or front bumper. Hey, the interior has a metal-look wave across the dash... the earlier pics made that wave look black, and changing that to metal-look was a suggestion I posted on nabisco to "spice up" the interior a bit. Looks like they took my advice. :shades: lol
The interior looks poorly designed. The radio and NAV are combined into one unit. The center vents are waaaaaay too low in the stack. Still no integrated turbo gauge it seems. At least it looks like the frameless windows are gone.
I love the fact that the radio/nav is higher in the stack than the vents. That is a great safety feature. I was going to comment on that. My Rodeo had it that was and it was great because you didn't have to fiddle down low with radio knobs. How often do you fiddle with the vents?
I would like to see the bolstering of the seats a bit better. From the photos, it appears similar to the weak bolstering in the current GT.
For me, there are a few things that enhance the driveability experience, which includes aggressively bolstered seats (relegate the weak bolstering to the lesser Imprezas and the Outbacks), quick/heavy/accurate steering and the tractability of the engine/tranny combo. I guess I will have to wait for the real deal to appear, to make a decision one way or the other.
From what I've read it sounds like the seats are a carryover. As to seat grip, I've never felt a need for greater side bolstering on my '06 WRX. The seats hold me in place just fine, even during rapid driving on a windy road.
As to seat grip, I've never felt a need for greater side bolstering on my '06 WRX.
I think the perception of good bolstering varies from person to person. A friend has a 2002 WRX, whose bolstering I find to be near perfect. The newer WRX models (2004+) and also the current Legacy GT, don't impress me too much from the bolstering angle - seats are too wide and the bolstering is weak at best (JMHO). Even the regular Honda Civic coupe (not Sedan) has better bolstering, with the Si version having even better bolstering. My wife who is not a sports-car afficionado by any means, also noticed this "weak bolstering" aspect of the newer WRX, right away, after comparing it with our friend's older WRX.
Among the econo cars, the Mitsubishi EVO's bolstering is what I would consider as excellent, even though the overall car is a bit too raw for my taste.
The 02-03 seats were the best in my opinion, in fact they were the best seats in any car I have owned. Starting in 04, they made the US seats wider and decreased the bolstering.
In terms of design, the knobs that are poorly located on the 07 Outback are the climate control knobs. They are way down low and you have to reach down between the console and the shifter. Even worse is the fan speed knob, which is between the temp selector and output selector, but is a round knob vs. an inset grab switch like the other two. Why? It is difficult to grip and to turn (especially when it is cold!), while the others are not. So why not just use the same across the board? Did they have left over round knobs from a previous model?
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
Comments
-mike
~alpha
But that was a new RAV4 vs an old CR-V. I wouldn't be suprised that 06 CRV's were in short supply as they geared up the production of 07's.
b) Changing the brakes from the 4-pot setup to a 2-pot setup in the front - big step backward, since brakes are the last thing they should have compromised on (assuming there is a compromise by this move).
c) Retaining the 4EAT (in the WRX), when the whole world has moved on to 5EAT and beyond, for pretty much anything in the near-30K **sub-compact** class. If they really wanted to retain the 4EAT, they should have done it in the lesser Imprezas. The WRX truly deserves a significant step-up, lack of whose presence is especially galling, since an off-the-shelf 5EAT is alive and kicking in several Subaru models operating in roughly the same price segment.
d) Reduction of space by going to a steeply sloped hatchback rear design from the less-sloped wagon design. The overall length has not changed much (less than 2" ?)
e) I like the outer design of the current Impreza wagon. The new one (hatch) does not thrill me, from an exterior-looks perspective. One specifically nasty aspect is the clear-lights on the WRX (hopefully can be cured by switching with the other Imprezas).
The steps forward by the new model, were already listed by Bob's previous post above.
Right now the 07 CR-V is outselling the RAV4 easily.
I'm guessing that the STi will get flared fenders so it can run wider tires.
-mike
2 pots vs. 4: paisan thinks it's good as it'll mean an easier brake job. I had to buy a special tool to do my Forester's brakes, and the Miata is definitely a lot easier. My pads wore at a slight angle so it didn't distribute the braking power as evenly as I hoped. I'm torn on this one. :confuse:
I moved from a WRX 2-pot caliper on the Legacy for track days to the FHI 4-pot caliper not only for the better braking (no caliper deflection), easier pad replacement, but the fact that the pads were $20-30 CHEAPER for the 4-pots v. the 2-pots since they are the same pads used on the 300zx as well as the FHI caliper.
I belive Hawk HP+ for the 2pots are around $125 for the 4-pots they are $85.
-mike
You don't even need to pull the bolts off them at all!
-mike
-mike
Maybe they're quieter? That's the only reason I can think of.
Bob
-mike
Also they would have a slightly taller sidewall if people thought the ride was too harsh (it wasn't).
Unless they go back to the old fake scoops? Doubtful.
-mike
205x50% = 102.5mm vs 215x45%=96.75mm...leading to a sidewall height difference of 5.75mm between the "new" and the "old". Not that significant !
Then again, it's more narrow by 10mm, and that's at the widest point (section width).
It's possible the tread width difference is less than 10mm, depending upon the design of the tire.
Perhaps also to permit the wider track in the same total body width while maintaining a tight turning circle. Fuel economy improvement for CAFE may also be critical with the huge penalty inherent with all wheel drive.
Dave
Think of the tire's position with the steering at full lock, it would be very nearly the same.
The base Outback apparently no longer has the steel wheels from the Forester. It now has black steel wheels, with wheelcovers (boo!). Also, it looks like the cruise control has been moved to the steering wheel with buttons. Not sure how I feel about that, as I've felt the current CC control stalk was perfect, so why they're changing this is a mystery?
Pics over at nabisco.
Bob
Much agreed. I did not really feel I was sacrificing anything going with the Basic in terms of the steel vs. aluminum wheels. I very much dislike covers, though, so had they not been decent looking, silver painted wheels, it would have been more of a consideration.
-mike
So now it's 07 v. 08 LGT 5MT. or Spec B, not sure if I can afford the Spec B though.
-mike
I mean, why? It ends up heavier, more unsprung weight, more fragile, easy to break/steal, some times fall off.
Frustrating.
On another note, anyone been to Bill Kolb Subaru? They have used 06 Tribecas dirt cheap. They're very tempting at $22.8k for Ltd/7 pass/NAV with 20 something k miles. They have one with NAV and DVD in the $24k range with fewer miles, too.
A new one would mean about a $8-9 grand jump in price, with the same equipment.
I hope the 08 wows me.
Looking like Quartz Silver Metallic or Diamond Pearl Gray '08
Now it's a matter of SpecB or LGT 5MT
Cost difference of about $5k-6k
Pluses on SpecB:
6-Speed
Torsen LSD Rear
VDC
Navi
18" Wheels
That's about it. The question is....are they worth 5-6k?
Discuss.....
-mike
Bob
-mike
Bob
-mike
6-Speed: solid upgrade, because all the hardware is beefier. Not practical to add this to the other car, but it's gotta be worth $1200 or so.
Torsen LSD Rear: ~$900 just for parts, you could install a front diff yourself and probably get better results. But still worth it.
VDC: Stand-alone this is a few hundred, call it $400. The way you drive you might leave it off all the time.
Navi: You're a techie and will use it, but it's not the best system. I love the voice, and knowing you, you'll find a way around the "safety" feature that doesn't let you or even a passenger use it while in motion. Priced at $1800 stand-alone, and integrated does look nice. I'll say it's worth it just for Becky's voice, she's far more sensual than the lady in my Garmin.
18" Wheels: tough call, because it's an incremental cost here. Plus you're in NYC, so pot holes may eat them up. I don't think they add a lot of value for you, but let's say the set is worth a $600 upgrade price.
That adds up to roughly $4900 of extras. You'd have to add the cost of the Bilsteins, which are surely better than stock. Then there are the black/blue two-tone leather seats, again, if you like them.
So it's arguably worth the extra cost, if, big IF, you want the extras that it comes with. The bonus is that it's a special model that will always be respected. One lapped a road course quicker than BMW/Audi/Infiniti in a R&T comparo.
If Subaru offered the GT with the 6 speed it would be a no-brainer, but as it stands now it's a much tougher call. I think I'd get the spec.B if I thought I could afford it easily.
That's MHO. :shades:
Sure, just sell rides on that boat of yours.... :P
Boo indeed!
Believe it or not the VDC on the Armada isn't too intrusive and I only turn it off when I'm doing a burnout!
-mike
These came from Road & Track.
Bob
-mike
-mike
Bob
For me, there are a few things that enhance the driveability experience, which includes aggressively bolstered seats (relegate the weak bolstering to the lesser Imprezas and the Outbacks), quick/heavy/accurate steering and the tractability of the engine/tranny combo. I guess I will have to wait for the real deal to appear, to make a decision one way or the other.
Bob
I think the perception of good bolstering varies from person to person. A friend has a 2002 WRX, whose bolstering I find to be near perfect. The newer WRX models (2004+) and also the current Legacy GT, don't impress me too much from the bolstering angle - seats are too wide and the bolstering is weak at best (JMHO). Even the regular Honda Civic coupe (not Sedan) has better bolstering, with the Si version having even better bolstering. My wife who is not a sports-car afficionado by any means, also noticed this "weak bolstering" aspect of the newer WRX, right away, after comparing it with our friend's older WRX.
Among the econo cars, the Mitsubishi EVO's bolstering is what I would consider as excellent, even though the overall car is a bit too raw for my taste.
Bob