My job on Straightline is to post automotive news. Yes, there are some sites that I try to stay away from—unless that's the only news source for the subject at hand. As to NASIOC, in the year and a half that I've been doing Straightline, I think I've linked over there less than a half dozen times.
What Phaeton fiasco or 5000 "uninteded acceleration" has to do with styling of interiors? :confuse: Advertising dollars for 6-8 car comparisons with final 3rd place (or so)? :surprise: I'd fire marketing guy for that...
I get it - you don't like their product (for understandable reasons, as they have their share of issues), so no credit can be given for anything.
It's completely a subjective thing. And nope they aren't good looking cars IMNSHO!
Give me an ugly car that works anyday of the week. Heck my mom's Kia Optima that cost 12k including tax, tags, title, delivery etc. has better reliability than ANY of the people I know who own VW/Audi products!
Sure looks are subjective. It just happens that most of the people like Audi's looks, which of course does not mean they like their cars or would buy them. And that was all I tried to say - if Subaru has to copy anyone, lets copy the best looks and make Impreza looking like A3, not Sebring. You disagree, of course and that's allright, too.
I don't think it looks like a sebring or a kia at all. On top of all this, no one here has seen the cars in 3-D yet either. I'll let you know on Friday night how they look, I'm hitting up the NYIAS on Friday.
I would have preferred a hatch similar to my circa 1986 or 1989 Lebaron GTS Turbo. It looked like a 4-door sedan but the trunk was actually a hatchback. I have to say that was one of my favorite cars. Leather, turbo, hatch, wide tires!
Similar to Mazda6 5-door? These are popular in Europe - I love the concept. Looks of sedan, versatility of hatch, cargo space reduced somewhat when compared to classic wagon,, but not as much considering that normal people do not lay backseasts that often. I wish they had more of those here
I haven't looked at the Mazda 6 5-door but I would imagine similar. The best part was you could load big stuff into the back and into the rear seat using that space more efficiently. While having a sealed trunk area that you can't see from the street.
OK, I have to apologize, I think I've incited a riot here by suggestion Audi was 2nd Tier.
FWIW, I love Audi's styling, and I think the A3 looks far better than the BMW 130i does, no contest.
Doesn't matter what I think. Styling is subjective. Sure, editors drool over Audi's styling, but so what? It hasn't made consumers run to the stores with their pocket books.
All that proves is that Editors like an underdog.
BMW is laughing all the way to the bank. Sales have skyrocketed. Their concave surfaces have inspired actual BUYERS with actual MONEY to give up that money for the cars we often find "ugly".
I've disliked the 7 series from day one. I've been very vocal about that, too, here and elsewhere. But look at some sales figures for the flagships, which is really what counts for prestige of the brands.
A8 sales figures aren't even in the basement, they're in the toilet. They are simply a non-event in the sales race. Why should Subaru invest heavily to copy an also-ran in sales in the prestige segment?
They made a simple decision - they will mimick the prestige sales champ, not the underdog.
The back styling is similar, but I do not see any direct carryover parts there. But never mind the back -- compare front views and compare the headlight unit. Other than internal color details, they look identical. It's actually expensive to design and set up fab for unique headlight units, so I would not be surprised if these were a recycle. Perhaps the front fender too.
Now the technical side. Why did they have to displace one of the greatest cars in history with a shorter version of Legacy?! Don't get me wrong, Legacy is also a very good car in my mind, but... :confuse:
The outgoing Impreza platform was outdated and smaller than its competitors. Makes perfect sense to move up to the larger and more modern/advanced Legacy platform. Sharing platforms makes a lot of sense from cost and productions standpoints. For one thing, it means they could more easily make Legacy and Impreza models on the same line. And I don't see a disadvantage to the Legacy platform in any way -- the LGT sedan has already proven its worthiness as a WRX competitor. If anything, this is a major improvement for the Impreza in terms of refinement.
I'll throw another opinion into the ring and say I think Volvo is a company whose exterior designs are most worthy of being copied. They've done an outstanding job remaking their image, sticking with a consistent brand look. If I had to choose my favorite non-exotic lineup based on exterior looks, I'd take Volvo. Gimme a XC90, S80 & C30.
Good catch on the headlights Craig. Yeah, the rear is not exact, but it was clearly influenced by the Saab version. No question that the preliminary work done on the Saab 9-6x was put to good use here.
Shoulder crease is a big BMW styling cue. The crease on both flattens out before the front fender to allow a smooth curve over the side of the hood. There's also a crease in the hoods of both that angles to meet at the A-pillar and continue the line over the roofline. And the door panels of both look to be concave under the crease.
Volvo is OK, I guess. Their interiors are also quite nice.
Subaru does have a styling crisis. Their cars have no common theme, every time they start something, they abandon it half way. For me, best looking front Impreza is current 06/07, followed closely by 02/03. Tribeca was so terrible that they simply abandonded ship just when they got it right. Knowing that styling/design decisions are made years in advance, I kind of understand it.
That may also explain their 4-speed AT fiasco. Perhaps just a couple of years ago it did not look like a big deal, but with a sleugh of 5/6/7/8 speed autos it became really a big marketing problem that was simply not recognized. Same with some other equipment, like telescopic steering wheel on Legacies (3 years overdue), HID lights (still not done right), or VDC/6-speed manuals.
Subaru seems to be reactive to market trends when it comes to equipment. Instead of trying to anticipate demand, they react to it, which puts them behind the curve almost all the time.
On the other hand, they seem to be ahead in general concept: Outback pretty much started the crossover segment, WRX started fast compact segment, or use of AWD as a viable performance enhancement.
The problem is that they take the risks (vide initial sales failure of Tribeca), but rewards are reaped by others, as they take those new concept and work out the details that seem to be eluding Subaru's grasp. It's not enough they were there first - when others come they have to do the work to remain a player, ESPECIALLY if they are small company. If Ford puts its AWD on Fusion and advertises "first midsize", just becuase Legacy is technically a compact, we could laugh - but it's no joke. Lets imagine Honda follows up and puts its simplified SH-AWD on Accord or Nissan lets Maxima AWD from G35. What then would be Legacy's edge? Symmetrical AWD? Who cares except juice, Bob and I? It's not so far fetched and I would be scared to death, if I were SoA.
When I saw that WRX, I wondered how much of that was Saab 9-2x inspired. To me it looks more Euro than the current model, especially the hatch. The carry forward of style work for Saab now being applied to Subaru is a good think IMHO.
GC8 generation of Impreza still the best. I like the sedan so far of the 08. If it had the 5EAT it would be even better. I think it's too small for me though I think.
Agree completely, including the statement about the best looking Impreza being the 06/07. If Honda marketed the Civic and the Accord in Wagon form with SH-AWD, that will really pickle the mix.
BMW buyers are not going to be fooled by those BMWesque styling cues (did you really think they would be?) ! I believe the newer Hyundai models have been copying Jaguar exterior design elements but nobody looking for a Jaguar would bump into a Hyundai dealership and strike a deal, just because of some pilfered styling cues.
Just imagine a buyer thinking he is buying a Jaguar, when he buys a Hyundai and considers it the deal of the century. :surprise: :shades:
Actually I think Hyundais are more reliable than Jags. I know I'd buy a hyundai over an X-type anyday of the week.
The point is not to target BMW's prospective customers. The idea is to give it a bit of an upscale style more european than the typical stuff coming out these days.
Don't forget they don't have cash to throw at things the way that almost all other manufacturers do. They are a relatively small independent company. It lets them be creative but doesn't help them to do widespread technology updates.
All that follows will be Saabisation of the brand - then all they can hope for is being 100% bought by Toyota
Funny thing - the "upscale-schmapscale" move was not a bad idea in its core. I think Takenaka did it in recognition of the threat and the move was a legitimate chance of avoiding the oblivion. The problem was that plan was not really thought out and even worse executed. They had two choices: either go German/Swedish (stripped base versions, lots of option, high personalization) or go Acura - full, and I mean full package and one-two big ticket option, like Nav and Automatic. Former was out of their current capabilities, so only the latter might have worked. What did they do? Neither. I looked like they thought it was enough to get better styling on one model, add 250 hp turbo with AWD and call it the day. Add, then course WRX/STi - fast, but hardly upscale, even with couple of updates. What were they thinking?
Now, they say - no more upscale talk. Allright - but what instead? Subaru Camry AWD? No, thanks :sick: . What will be next?
I guess once the cover is blown wide open, there is zero anticipation in the "announcement". Thank MT for that.
I think it would have served Subaru better to have "released" snippets of the WRX through "leaks" over the past several months and then monitored reactions from the public through the public forums. Stylistic changes like getting rid of stinkers like the ricer taillights and replacing them with conventional ones, could have been effected, if so done.
Having said that, I believe they did an excellent job in their re-design of the Tribeca. Luckily no design stinkers there with a strictly middle-of-the-road approach.
In that same interview with Chris Bangle I read from years ago, he basically predicted this. He explained that he and the bosses at BMW agreed that the current (at the time) design language for automobiles had run out of vocabulary. It was no longer enough to search for a design "cue" or some re-working of a grille or badge or whatever to continue the evolution of the marque. They decided that BMW should be the company to re-write the language itself, to try to use concavities, extrusions, angles, and organic interior forms as a cohesive new direction, without compromising (and in some cases increasing) interior volume. It only became technologically possible relatively recently, and at the time it was still expensive, so the 7 got it first. Getting metal to behave that way is not the easiest thing, when you are working at the tolerances BMW demands.
Collectively they knew it was going to cause a huge outrage at first. But they had thought it through as a complete styling doctrine and were convinced it was the right course. They also believed that the brand's core audience would understand and embrace the move, which certainly seems to have been the case. Lastly, he predicted that more and more "words" from this updated "language" would begin to be adopted by others, precisely because there is almost nowhere new for design to go.
CX-9 is a comfortable 7 seater? Wow that makes the Armada a bus!
Also take into account how the interior room is configured, for instance the volume of a Forester may be equal to the volume of a legacy wagon, but the Forester is boxier which makes it more usable.
BMW's have short front overhangs, long rear overhangs, the body lines sweep very gently from low in the front to somewhat high in the back, the porportions are very "classic" sedan-like - hood length / cab length / trunk length / front and rear windshield angles / cab height / overall height. The hood line is downward sleek with a sharp drop-off. Same with the trunk - very sharp drop off. That's why BMW's are never confused with another brand. Bangled or not.
Having a crease along the side does not make the Impreza look like a Beemer. Impreza has proportions of a typical front wheel drive generic economy sub-compact.
c_hunter, in no way I wanted to disapprove of Legacy. I just have never seen it quite in the same light. Legacy is still Subaru, but just the longer platform by itself is going to make it a completely different story, and other differences would add to this (i.e. brakes). Technically would be a different car, I am not saying that it would be a bad car, but I just think it would not be the same Impreza... this one leans towards the mass market in both style and technology and that is what I think used to set Subaru apart before.
I don't get what the customer attraction is of a Subaru. I'm influenced by the fact that while living in Alaska in 1987, I bought a new Subaru wagon. Worst car I ever owned. No engine problems,just rust out, transmission and suspension. I traded it in 1990 for a used 1988 Bronco II which was far superior. There was more wrong with it than it was worth, with a mere 58,000 miles. The Gronco II went 231,000 trouble free miles averaging 4mpg better than what I was getting out of the Subaru. Supposedly a Subaru is a "Green" car, but its mileage is worse than comparable Ford and GM products, even though its smaller, lighter and less torque than either. They were damn near broke until GM rescued them.
Bronco II- Reliability wasn't it's strong suit. Maybe you got lucky but I know of a ton of folks with problems on these trucks. 4mpg better? Highly doubt it unless there was something grossly wrong with your Subaru.
As for Milage worse than GM and Ford? Hmm how many of them have full time all wheel drive? None is the answer so you are comparing apples to spinach!
Damn near broke? Where did you get your information from? GM didn't rescue them at all my friend. I think you are mistaking your facts here. GM sucked the life out of Isuzu (stole the Duramax Diesel technology, burned out the rest of the company) Probably would have done the same to Subaru if they didn't sell their portion to Toyota.
It's funny, because when I was in high school my friend had exactly these two cars in the family. We never took the Bronco unless we had to. The subaru was a better drive, and had 4 doors too. It was just as capable in 4wd, but without the clearance of course. The Bronco II was fine I guess, but the steering was very numb and the dead spot was nearly 1/8 turn in either direction. It was flawless in terms of reliability, until we were in college. I guess around 70k or so. Then it starting eating everything BUT what could have been waranteed- fuel pumps, steering pump, compressor, belts, exhaust (3) and brakes.
Comments
Bob
I get it - you don't like their product (for understandable reasons, as they have their share of issues), so no credit can be given for anything.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Give me an ugly car that works anyday of the week. Heck my mom's Kia Optima that cost 12k including tax, tags, title, delivery etc. has better reliability than ANY of the people I know who own VW/Audi products!
-mike
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-mike
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Worst part was the trans kept going out on it.
-mike
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-mike
How about the Tribeca - when will dealers have them?
Bob
FWIW, I love Audi's styling, and I think the A3 looks far better than the BMW 130i does, no contest.
Doesn't matter what I think. Styling is subjective. Sure, editors drool over Audi's styling, but so what? It hasn't made consumers run to the stores with their pocket books.
All that proves is that Editors like an underdog.
BMW is laughing all the way to the bank. Sales have skyrocketed. Their concave surfaces have inspired actual BUYERS with actual MONEY to give up that money for the cars we often find "ugly".
I've disliked the 7 series from day one. I've been very vocal about that, too, here and elsewhere. But look at some sales figures for the flagships, which is really what counts for prestige of the brands.
A8 sales figures aren't even in the basement, they're in the toilet. They are simply a non-event in the sales race. Why should Subaru invest heavily to copy an also-ran in sales in the prestige segment?
They made a simple decision - they will mimick the prestige sales champ, not the underdog.
ateixeira, "Subaru Tribeca 2008" #25, 4 Apr 2007 9:12 am
Check it out, along with the next post. While the Tribeca grille does have similarities, there is simply no way the Tribeca "looks like an Aspen".
If you say that again I will ask you to PUT DOWN THE CRACK PIPE and maybe get a new prescription for your glasses while you're at it.
Sure, the grilles are similar.
The Pontiac G5's grille looks like a BMW grille. Does anyone mistake one for the other? No.
The outgoing Impreza platform was outdated and smaller than its competitors. Makes perfect sense to move up to the larger and more modern/advanced Legacy platform. Sharing platforms makes a lot of sense from cost and productions standpoints. For one thing, it means they could more easily make Legacy and Impreza models on the same line. And I don't see a disadvantage to the Legacy platform in any way -- the LGT sedan has already proven its worthiness as a WRX competitor. If anything, this is a major improvement for the Impreza in terms of refinement.
Who? :confuse: Chrysler Sebring or Kia Spectra5?
Really - where are BMW (I assume that's what you're talking about) styling cues :confuse:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
and this...
Bob
Shoulder crease is a big BMW styling cue. The crease on both flattens out before the front fender to allow a smooth curve over the side of the hood. There's also a crease in the hoods of both that angles to meet at the A-pillar and continue the line over the roofline. And the door panels of both look to be concave under the crease.
Subaru does have a styling crisis. Their cars have no common theme, every time they start something, they abandon it half way. For me, best looking front Impreza is current 06/07, followed closely by 02/03. Tribeca was so terrible that they simply abandonded ship just when they got it right. Knowing that styling/design decisions are made years in advance, I kind of understand it.
That may also explain their 4-speed AT fiasco. Perhaps just a couple of years ago it did not look like a big deal, but with a sleugh of 5/6/7/8 speed autos it became really a big marketing problem that was simply not recognized. Same with some other equipment, like telescopic steering wheel on Legacies (3 years overdue), HID lights (still not done right), or VDC/6-speed manuals.
Subaru seems to be reactive to market trends when it comes to equipment. Instead of trying to anticipate demand, they react to it, which puts them behind the curve almost all the time.
On the other hand, they seem to be ahead in general concept: Outback pretty much started the crossover segment, WRX started fast compact segment, or use of AWD as a viable performance enhancement.
The problem is that they take the risks (vide initial sales failure of Tribeca), but rewards are reaped by others, as they take those new concept and work out the details that seem to be eluding Subaru's grasp. It's not enough they were there first - when others come they have to do the work to remain a player, ESPECIALLY if they are small company. If Ford puts its AWD on Fusion and advertises "first midsize", just becuase Legacy is technically a compact, we could laugh - but it's no joke. Lets imagine Honda follows up and puts its simplified SH-AWD on Accord or Nissan lets Maxima AWD from G35. What then would be Legacy's edge? Symmetrical AWD? Who cares except juice, Bob and I? It's not so far fetched and I would be scared to death, if I were SoA.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-mike
Now, which one is the BMW? I can barely tell them apart below the window line.
It's funny how people zoom in on one tiny little feature, like a grille or a headlight or a taillight.
Open your eyes, and look at the entire body. That entire lower half screams BMW.
Kia, Toyota, Hyundai, Mazda, and all the other brands mentioned don't use concave panels like that.
Just imagine a buyer thinking he is buying a Jaguar, when he buys a Hyundai and considers it the deal of the century. :surprise: :shades:
The point is not to target BMW's prospective customers. The idea is to give it a bit of an upscale style more european than the typical stuff coming out these days.
-mike
They're just using a styling formula (concave panels) that has worked well for BMW.
Ford was actually first with the creases, what they called New Edge styling. But the panels were still convex, they just met at a crease.
Cadillac uses creases for its Art & Science look, but they basically frame boxy panels that are mostly flat.
The Tribeca hinted at the BMW X5 when it came out.
The WRX looks even more like a BMW, in this case the 1- and 3-series.
Totally off topic, but I'd take an Azera over an X-Type any day, even though the latter has AWD. :P
Look at how long they took to bring NaV, VDC into OBs. Still they don't have memory seats, bluetooth etc.
Look at Forester, they invented the segment and it is soooooooooooooooooo far behind.
What i am wondering is if we know this, why is it so hard for them to undertand.
either they get proactive or else they will perish soon or keep selling cars at discounts.
AWD is no longer their niche. They tried getting into performance segment but gas prices keep getting higher and keeping a lot of custmers away.
what is their niche - the loyal customer base !
-mike
Then, what vehicle is the countdown going to show?
cusafr
Funny thing - the "upscale-schmapscale" move was not a bad idea in its core. I think Takenaka did it in recognition of the threat and the move was a legitimate chance of avoiding the oblivion. The problem was that plan was not really thought out and even worse executed. They had two choices: either go German/Swedish (stripped base versions, lots of option, high personalization) or go Acura - full, and I mean full package and one-two big ticket option, like Nav and Automatic. Former was out of their current capabilities, so only the latter might have worked. What did they do? Neither. I looked like they thought it was enough to get better styling on one model, add 250 hp turbo with AWD and call it the day. Add, then course WRX/STi - fast, but hardly upscale, even with couple of updates. What were they thinking?
Now, they say - no more upscale talk. Allright - but what instead? Subaru Camry AWD? No, thanks :sick: . What will be next?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
I think it would have served Subaru better to have "released" snippets of the WRX through "leaks" over the past several months and then monitored reactions from the public through the public forums. Stylistic changes like getting rid of stinkers like the ricer taillights and replacing them with conventional ones, could have been effected, if so done.
Having said that, I believe they did an excellent job in their re-design of the Tribeca. Luckily no design stinkers there with a strictly middle-of-the-road approach.
Collectively they knew it was going to cause a huge outrage at first. But they had thought it through as a complete styling doctrine and were convinced it was the right course. They also believed that the brand's core audience would understand and embrace the move, which certainly seems to have been the case. Lastly, he predicted that more and more "words" from this updated "language" would begin to be adopted by others, precisely because there is almost nowhere new for design to go.
Looks like those 2 inches went into the new schnozz.
tribeca is a great 5 seater and is a bad 7 seater. take my word, they will give more incentives on 7-seater version. as they did in last 2 years
Also take into account how the interior room is configured, for instance the volume of a Forester may be equal to the volume of a legacy wagon, but the Forester is boxier which makes it more usable.
The CX-9 looks pretty curvy.
-mike
Having a crease along the side does not make the Impreza look like a Beemer. Impreza has proportions of a typical front wheel drive generic economy sub-compact.
Besides the Impreza is an Impreza, it's got kick-butt engine and AWD system and that isn't replicated by any of the competition.
-mike
Supposedly a Subaru is a "Green" car, but its mileage is worse than comparable Ford and GM products, even though its smaller, lighter and less torque than either. They were damn near broke until GM rescued them.
Bronco II- Reliability wasn't it's strong suit. Maybe you got lucky but I know of a ton of folks with problems on these trucks. 4mpg better? Highly doubt it unless there was something grossly wrong with your Subaru.
As for Milage worse than GM and Ford? Hmm how many of them have full time all wheel drive? None is the answer so you are comparing apples to spinach!
Damn near broke? Where did you get your information from? GM didn't rescue them at all my friend. I think you are mistaking your facts here. GM sucked the life out of Isuzu (stole the Duramax Diesel technology, burned out the rest of the company) Probably would have done the same to Subaru if they didn't sell their portion to Toyota.
-mike
integrated key & key fob
the site is well done for the 1st time