Now I have to take issue with this. On a high-HP vehicle, AWD contributes significantly to dynamics and handling on dry roads. The AWD benefits are even more apparent on wet roads, but they contribute significantly in the dry.
Saying FWD performs as well as AWD except for acceleration is not really saying much. That should be obvious. It's acceleration, and cornering under acceleration, where AWD has a huge benefit. FWD tends to understeer and plow in those conditions, and it's not a desirable trait at all.
And I would definitely not equate FWD + stability and traction control to AWD in any way. A good AWD system can continue putting 100% of engine power down under slippage. At best, a traction control system can put down 50% power, and if it's on FWD that would be to a single front wheel. In wet weather, AWD continues to have a significant advantage over nannied-FWD.
I won't argue with your other points because it is definitely fair to criticize Subaru for being behind in other areas. AWD is not an area to question them however, because they have the best systems around. FWIW, I don't currently own a Subaru but still consider them to have the best AWD systems.
I don't get your post at all. On one hand, you tell us how much the bland 08 makes you appreciate your distinctive 06 (which I can understand). On the other hand, you make it sound like the 08 makes you want to dump your 06. There is no reason here at all. If you like your 06, and the 08 makes you appreciate your 06 even more, then it sounds like you should be happy with your 06, not driven to abandon the brand. I honestly think you have some remorse about the 06 if that is the case.
I could take your argument and apply it to the Acura MDX as well, since you brought that up (and I have two Acuras, so why not). If you were one of the many people who paid full MSRP for the last generation MDX (remember, there were waiting lists) and then saw the vastly improved 07 MDX come out just a couple years later, would you hate that and not buy another Acura? Cars are not something to base your life on. There will always be model refreshes and newer/better versions coming along. If you're compulsive about cars, then you should accept that and prepare to buy a new model every time it comes along, or live with your choice and be happy for as long as you own the car.
Now, as to the topic of needing more power in your 06 to race 08 drivers, have you completely gone mad? First of all, it's lame to talk about street racing (yeah, I don't think you were taking your B9 to the track to race it against all the other B9s there). Second of all, we're talking about SUVs here, and family-oriented SUVs at that. Heck, I have a fairly well powered "sporty" SUV that handles well, but I am not under any sort of illusion that it would be cool to race. SUVs range from being tanks to dorkmobiles to soccer-mom buses, and I think any pretense of being cool/fast is desperate at best. Get a sports car for that! Whether you have an 06 or an 08 Tribeca doesn't affect the issue very much at all.
I like to travel a lot. Let's say today I want to go from St. Paul to Chicago (7 hours). Checking the Weather Channel Interstate Forecast, today it's going to be windy on I94 for like 100 miles (and I'm feeling it like a hurricane in my house, right now). Tomorrow, the forecast shows it's going to be snow rain all the way. So, I challenge any Corvette owner to a two way race against my 2.5i OB. But the result is not who is going to arrive sooner (dare I think we can be very close), but who is going to have a better pulse after arriving. Who is going to sleep better tomorrow night.
Subaru loyals write in these forums because we are the relax crowd, who can understand the importance of reliability and confidence. Just ask my neighbor the '06 Cadillac owner who is filing a lemon lawsuit. Or the lady who last week in front of me did a 360° on the highway with a BMW 328 going at less than 55mph and almost no sleet ice.
Ok, you're rich, buy a Corvette for 7 months, I would if I could. But, for the rest of us, from the Impreza to the Tribeca, there's a lot more tranquility this way.
The 08 Imprezza and 08 Legacy Outback all have telescoping wheels. I am not sure about the Tribeca. I looked for that feature in the PR materials but did not see it.
As for your 7 hour drive, please add 3 kids under 8 and another adult. I'll take a full size SUV or mini van getting 25 to 27mpg. You take any Subaru. Who will be more relaxed at the end of the trip?
The vette was only to show you can have power and mpg at the same time. For your "race", I'll use a Impalla SS and still get 27mpg in a full size sedan and over 300hp.
Many subaru small cars and SUVs get 24mpg or there about. With todays Global warming and high gas prices, we need better. AWD or not.
I was a bit stunned by those numbers - didn't know they were so low. I looked it up on their websites. It appears Audi is much bigger oustide of US - much bigger. Their January-February sales 144K, 9% increase worldwide (for similar period). They also claim US growth of 19% (13K units) in first 2 months and February alone 38% (6.6K). So perhaps they had to pay for it a little in March?
BTW, I also checked reveared Big Kahuna BMW, just for kicks - Jan-Feb worldwide total is 191.6K, including motorcycles and MINI (166K BMW cars). It is 3.6% average increase.
I agree - those Audi US March numbers suck. It shows they really struggled. But perhaps somebody could pull total 2006 full year sales? It also looks that BMW is really big here, but not so much everywhere else, at least in terms of sales. We can say, it's all what we care about - but what does that do to Subaru?
The title on that chart says "brand", but they must mean "make". I see no Lexus, Acura or Infiniti on the list, so those brands are apparently bumping up the numbers shown for the Japanese Big 3. No Cadillac numbers broken out, either.
I'm amazed there were more BMWs sold than VWs and Mazdas.
Suzuki looks to overtake Volvo & Mitsubishi this year - also amazing. Perhaps with the new releases this year, Subaru will keep that trio well back in the rearview mirror. I really think the Tribeca can help a lot. Of course, the new '08 models won't go on sale 'til June, and sales will probably suffer 'til then. They'll probably be slowing down production of their hottest model right now, the '07 Impreza, to make sure there's not a lot of old inventory in June.
'08 through '09 may be when the sales really pick up for Subaru. They'll have 1/2 year of sales under their belt for the new Tribeca & new Impreza, the new Impreza STI will have debuted and gone on sale at the beginning of '08, perhaps we'll get the rumored "tuned by STI" Legacy & Forester this fall to keep the hype up on those models, and hopefully we'll see a nice new Forester mid-'08 to really carry that momentum. We could see a diesel somewhere in that timeframe as well, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a 3.6R version of the Tribeca (remember you heard it from me first! ) tuned for performance, if the public buys the new look in enough numbers. Can't remember the numbers I read on a post by an "insider", but I think it was about 30 hp & lbs/torque gain from a simple retune & use of premium fuel.
Exciting times for the brand, for sure. But of course everyone else is innovating, too.
Hmm 1st of all they are the same vehicle, so that's only 1.
2nd of all if these are full-size what is a Suburban, Tahoe, Armada and Expedition? I guess they are Collosally Full Size then! Thanks for proving my point.
FWIW, I test drove an Outlook and you can't seat 5 adults in that thing, either.
There's a center hump and the middle seat is hard as a rock.
The 4 captain's chairs are more comfortable but the mechanism to fold it was defective on the one I looked at, and at least one other magazine reported the same problem.
The 3rd row is not comfortable, either, as it's way too close to the ground.
So despite being full-sized and the much bigger foot print, I would *not* want to be the 5th passenger in one of GM's Lambdas.
Tahoe has the same issues - hump and a hard 2nd row middle seat, and the 3rd row is worse because you sit with your knees in your chest. Even the Suburban is no better.
Their vans have been dropped.
So I can't think of one GM car with 5 comfortable seats, either. :P
Pretty funny, when you think about it. The Scion xB from Toyota is more comfortable for 5 because it has a flat floor and huge space in the rear seat. It beats a Suburban in that regard.
Sure, Subaru could do better, but the 40/20/40 middle seat in the Tribeca is far and away more comfy than the Outlook's underpadded bench that sits too close to the floor over a bigger hump.
OK, after seeing that video, it's interesting to note the Edmunds editor says it looks better in person.
I think this is a car that needs to be seen in 3D. In photos you don't really see concave panels.
Also interesting that he liked it, and both the members of the press he interviewed though it looked better than the outgoing model, and this is outside.
This controversy may turn out to be a coup for Subaru, as they are getting TONS of press.
Some observatins about the car itself:
* I prefer separate headrests of the 02 models, these seats look like the later WRXs * control panel to center console transition not as well done as Tribeca's * check out those hood struts! Very upscale * that rear suspsension is AMAZINGLY compact
The exhaust is different on sedan because it's a half foot longer than the hatch, resulting in more space to play with back there. The sedan has dual exhaust while the hatch has a single exhaust outlet.
Did anyone notice the dimensions of the new Impreza sedan? Mostly the cubic foot space of the trunk, and the Length and width of the car. I never really liked a hatch and the previous impreza was just too small in the trunk space and the size of the car made for a harsh highway ride. Since the new impreza is based on the Legacy platform, I was hoping for a smoother highway ride and larger trunk.
Paisan: Actually, I am comparing the Legacy with the Impreza. I plan to buy one or the other. The Impreza cost less, so should be the better deal, if acceptable.
From Bob's post, it shows the new Impreza is only 6" shorter and 2" wider than the 2007 Legacy. Also, the 2007 Legacy only has a trunk capacity of 11.4 Cubic Feet. Not sure about the 2008 Impreza yet.
Will also have to compare the 2008 Legacy if dimensions are different. Especially the trunk size.
Anyway, I'm not sure which one I'll buy, but it will be a Subaru. Trying to make this car buying experience fun, logical and get the best vehicle for the price.
The 08 legacy is going to have the same dimensions as the 07, it's only a fresh on the front and rear ends.
I too am debating between the 2, but I'm leaning toward the legacy due to it being a bit larger, and more comfortable as well as the 6MT trans as well. For speed I have my 94 legacy race car I can take out.
I have an '06 WRX Limited wagon. While I love the car, as it's a hoot to drive, the road and wind noise is driving me nuts. I hope that's been addressed with the new model.
I know to a degree it has, but the question is—to what degree? If that's a major concern, my gut feeling is to go with the Legacy, as the Legacy will likely always be quieter than an Impreza, simply because it's positioned higher in the Subaru food chain.
Gotcha, I knew it was on the STi Limited, didn't know about the WRX getting it. Bob is the car actually wider than the Legacy or is the interior just wider?
I have liked Legacy GT from the start. Problem? No wagon manual from '06 and no wagon at all from '08. Outback is not a real alternative to me. Too many compromises on everything from looks, to suspension to road feel. Now WRX hatch will have to boy racer lights - I'm not sure if I could show myself up with them .
Subaru incresingly frustrates me with their choices. They simply decided they're not interested in keeping those adults who grew from their WRX wagons and want something similar, just a bit bigger and more mature. I simply don't get it.
Is Canadian Legacy so different that they could not manufacture them on the same lines (Canada keeps their wagon, albeit for almost 40 grand US ).
I agree with you 100%. If Subaru offered a facelifted Legacy GT wagon for 08 with VDC (and cripes, sculpt the door panels for another 2" interior width!!) I likely would not have bought an Acura RDX. Seriously bad move on their part. This has got to be a marketing decision to emphasize the Outback as their US wagon offering, since they still build the Legacy wagon and offer it in Canada. Over the years, Subaru has made some dumb marketing moves and this is another.
Oh i'm sure it has a lower CG, just odd to see it's actually a higher roofline. When we took the moonroof out of the 94 Legacy because it's required for racing, we weighed the unit (glass, track, motor, etc) and it was a good 40-50lbs, mounted up high too.
+1. They just lost us as a customer when it's time to replace the wife's car. She wants a wagon and will insist on a manual. Since no one seems to want to offer such a combo at all anymore, I think she will seriously consider a Prius (!!). She feels that if she has to give up her manual, she'll take the versatility of the Prius' 5 door confg. plus the mileage. For now though, we'll just keep fixing what needs be fixed on the Legacy. Me, I'll probably end up in another Impreza.
Comments
2018 430i Gran Coupe
In typical suburban driving my Vette would match the mileage I have gotten on my Outbacks (98 OB and 06 3.0R OB) - about 20 MPG.
Saying FWD performs as well as AWD except for acceleration is not really saying much. That should be obvious. It's acceleration, and cornering under acceleration, where AWD has a huge benefit. FWD tends to understeer and plow in those conditions, and it's not a desirable trait at all.
And I would definitely not equate FWD + stability and traction control to AWD in any way. A good AWD system can continue putting 100% of engine power down under slippage. At best, a traction control system can put down 50% power, and if it's on FWD that would be to a single front wheel. In wet weather, AWD continues to have a significant advantage over nannied-FWD.
I won't argue with your other points because it is definitely fair to criticize Subaru for being behind in other areas. AWD is not an area to question them however, because they have the best systems around. FWIW, I don't currently own a Subaru but still consider them to have the best AWD systems.
I could take your argument and apply it to the Acura MDX as well, since you brought that up (and I have two Acuras, so why not). If you were one of the many people who paid full MSRP for the last generation MDX (remember, there were waiting lists) and then saw the vastly improved 07 MDX come out just a couple years later, would you hate that and not buy another Acura? Cars are not something to base your life on. There will always be model refreshes and newer/better versions coming along. If you're compulsive about cars, then you should accept that and prepare to buy a new model every time it comes along, or live with your choice and be happy for as long as you own the car.
Now, as to the topic of needing more power in your 06 to race 08 drivers, have you completely gone mad? First of all, it's lame to talk about street racing (yeah, I don't think you were taking your B9 to the track to race it against all the other B9s there). Second of all, we're talking about SUVs here, and family-oriented SUVs at that. Heck, I have a fairly well powered "sporty" SUV that handles well, but I am not under any sort of illusion that it would be cool to race. SUVs range from being tanks to dorkmobiles to soccer-mom buses, and I think any pretense of being cool/fast is desperate at best. Get a sports car for that! Whether you have an 06 or an 08 Tribeca doesn't affect the issue very much at all.
Subaru loyals write in these forums because we are the relax crowd, who can understand the importance of reliability and confidence. Just ask my neighbor the '06 Cadillac owner who is filing a lemon lawsuit. Or the lady who last week in front of me did a 360° on the highway with a BMW 328 going at less than 55mph and almost no sleet ice.
Ok, you're rich, buy a Corvette for 7 months, I would if I could. But, for the rest of us, from the Impreza to the Tribeca, there's a lot more tranquility this way.
A 30% chance of snow showers and you need AWD? (I work in St Paul)
here is an example of what I've read:
link title
As for your 7 hour drive, please add 3 kids under 8 and another adult. I'll take a full size SUV or mini van getting 25 to 27mpg. You take any Subaru. Who will be more relaxed at the end of the trip?
The vette was only to show you can have power and mpg at the same time. For your "race", I'll use a Impalla SS and still get 27mpg in a full size sedan and over 300hp.
Many subaru small cars and SUVs get 24mpg or there about. With todays Global warming and high gas prices, we need better. AWD or not.
Sorry I stired things up so much.... :confuse:
BTW, I also checked reveared Big Kahuna BMW, just for kicks - Jan-Feb worldwide total is 191.6K, including motorcycles and MINI (166K BMW cars). It is 3.6% average increase.
I agree - those Audi US March numbers suck. It shows they really struggled. But perhaps somebody could pull total 2006 full year sales? It also looks that BMW is really big here, but not so much everywhere else, at least in terms of sales. We can say, it's all what we care about - but what does that do to Subaru?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2007/01/04/032967.html
I'm amazed there were more BMWs sold than VWs and Mazdas.
Suzuki looks to overtake Volvo & Mitsubishi this year - also amazing. Perhaps with the new releases this year, Subaru will keep that trio well back in the rearview mirror. I really think the Tribeca can help a lot. Of course, the new '08 models won't go on sale 'til June, and sales will probably suffer 'til then. They'll probably be slowing down production of their hottest model right now, the '07 Impreza, to make sure there's not a lot of old inventory in June.
'08 through '09 may be when the sales really pick up for Subaru. They'll have 1/2 year of sales under their belt for the new Tribeca & new Impreza, the new Impreza STI will have debuted and gone on sale at the beginning of '08, perhaps we'll get the rumored "tuned by STI" Legacy & Forester this fall to keep the hype up on those models, and hopefully we'll see a nice new Forester mid-'08 to really carry that momentum. We could see a diesel somewhere in that timeframe as well, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a 3.6R version of the Tribeca (remember you heard it from me first!
Exciting times for the brand, for sure. But of course everyone else is innovating, too.
-mike
http://www.subaru-global.com/special/2008impreza/index.html
Tribeca
http://www.subaru-global.com/special/2008tribeca/index.html
Bob
Hmm 1st of all they are the same vehicle, so that's only 1.
2nd of all if these are full-size what is a Suburban, Tahoe, Armada and Expedition? I guess they are Collosally Full Size then! Thanks for proving my point.
-mike
http://www.subiegal.com/gallerymain/subaruevents/2008subaruwrx/2008_subaru_wrx.h- tm
Bob
There's a center hump and the middle seat is hard as a rock.
The 4 captain's chairs are more comfortable but the mechanism to fold it was defective on the one I looked at, and at least one other magazine reported the same problem.
The 3rd row is not comfortable, either, as it's way too close to the ground.
So despite being full-sized and the much bigger foot print, I would *not* want to be the 5th passenger in one of GM's Lambdas.
Tahoe has the same issues - hump and a hard 2nd row middle seat, and the 3rd row is worse because you sit with your knees in your chest. Even the Suburban is no better.
Their vans have been dropped.
So I can't think of one GM car with 5 comfortable seats, either. :P
Pretty funny, when you think about it. The Scion xB from Toyota is more comfortable for 5 because it has a flat floor and huge space in the rear seat. It beats a Suburban in that regard.
Sure, Subaru could do better, but the 40/20/40 middle seat in the Tribeca is far and away more comfy than the Outlook's underpadded bench that sits too close to the floor over a bigger hump.
-mike
I think this is a car that needs to be seen in 3D. In photos you don't really see concave panels.
Also interesting that he liked it, and both the members of the press he interviewed though it looked better than the outgoing model, and this is outside.
This controversy may turn out to be a coup for Subaru, as they are getting TONS of press.
Some observatins about the car itself:
* I prefer separate headrests of the 02 models, these seats look like the later WRXs
* control panel to center console transition not as well done as Tribeca's
* check out those hood struts! Very upscale
* that rear suspsension is AMAZINGLY compact
:shades:
I imagine there is at least a small hump there, no?
I was surprised to see even the FWD Outlook, with no driveshaft running to the rear axle, still has a hump, indeed. :sick:
That's nice. The compact rear suspension makes the exhaust can go across the back which is a little cheesy and different than previous models.
-mike
-mike
Bob
Also noted the WRX has heated windshields as well.
-mike
Bob
-mike
-mike
I never really liked a hatch and the previous impreza was just too small in the trunk space and the size of the car made for a harsh highway ride. Since the new impreza is based on the Legacy platform, I was hoping for a smoother highway ride and larger trunk.
Anyone seen the dimensions printed anywhere?
Thanks,
cusafr
2.5i specs
http://vocuspr.vocus.com/vocuspr30/Temp/Sites/1571/934f807a82684007a0b3004448a3e- a2c/08Impreza25i_specs.pdf
WRX specs
http://vocuspr.vocus.com/vocuspr30/Temp/Sites/1571/8bdf292d63c544e98cf7f4e5c679d- 88a/08ImprezaWRX_specs.pdf
Bob
-mike
cusafr
From Bob's post, it shows the new Impreza is only 6" shorter and 2" wider than the 2007 Legacy. Also, the 2007 Legacy only has a trunk capacity of 11.4 Cubic Feet. Not sure about the 2008 Impreza yet.
Will also have to compare the 2008 Legacy if dimensions are different. Especially the trunk size.
Anyway, I'm not sure which one I'll buy, but it will be a Subaru. Trying to make this car buying experience fun, logical and get the best vehicle for the price.
Thanks,
cusafr
I too am debating between the 2, but I'm leaning toward the legacy due to it being a bit larger, and more comfortable as well as the 6MT trans as well. For speed I have my 94 legacy race car I can take out.
-mike
I know to a degree it has, but the question is—to what degree? If that's a major concern, my gut feeling is to go with the Legacy, as the Legacy will likely always be quieter than an Impreza, simply because it's positioned higher in the Subaru food chain.
Bob
-mike
Bob
-mike
So it now sounds like the AWP is being offered as part of the base '08 WRX, which is good.
Bob
-mike
My understanding is the car is the same width, but that that they have sculpted out the interior door panels, which allow for 2" more interior width.
Bob
Not too bad overall, should be good stuff.
I'm definitely looking forward to the Spec B.
-mike
Subaru incresingly frustrates me with their choices. They simply decided they're not interested in keeping those adults who grew from their WRX wagons and want something similar, just a bit bigger and more mature. I simply don't get it.
Is Canadian Legacy so different that they could not manufacture them on the same lines (Canada keeps their wagon, albeit for almost 40 grand US
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Actually, the LGT and the WRX have the same ground clearance of 6.1". The Outback Sport is 6.3" and the Impreza TS Wagon is 5.8".
Obviously, the above pertains to the current WRX not the new one.
-mike
That extra height may only be the cabin. If the WRX has no sunroof, the center of gravity could actually be lower than in the Legacy GT.
Dave
-mike
-mike