Simple - just go to Europe and look around. 75 hp motors pull (FWDs) cars like Focus, 100 hp motors are used in cars size of current Legacy, etc. Cars size of CRV (with AWD) have 1.4 gas motors (or more often diesels). Even Subaru has 2.0i in their Legacies, Imprezas and Foresters (latter have low-range gear switch). Of course there are no ATs with those cars (or more precisely - nobody wants them). Many had no AC (that's changed recently).
It is gearing. You usually end up with decent 0-40 acceleration, but top gear is "real" overdrive, i.e. car struggles to accelerate 10 mph at speeds over 50 mph. Their 0-60 numbers are in low teens.
There are ways. We got used to that silly horsepower war and 0-60 in 8.0 as "minimum". New mandates and gas crunch will make us rethink what slow is. The fact that we can doesn't mean we must.
Yup but here in the US, we don't have cars like that, and people will not buy it if it's SLOW. This isn't 1981 anymore where you could have such low powered cars. People here DEMAND power and milage.... Go figure.
We will not see a diesel Subaru in the U.S. for at least 2-3 years. It would be cost prohibitive for Subaru to certify a diesel here until they have a model that sells in high numbers. Currently, their sales are falling. The two prime candidates for a diesel are the Forester and the Tribeca. Tribeca sales are dismal and the Forester sales have been steadily declining. If Subaru were smart, they would wait at least a couple of years to see how the 09+ Forester will do sales wise before putting a diesel in it.
The Tribeca will need a 6-cylinder diesel, as a 2.0 H4 is just too small for such a heavy vehicle. It would be just too slow when going up against a V6 Pilot diesel, which is also coming.
I think approach like that put them exactly where they are. Witholding, underdelivering, lagging - you name it. Every new product that came out last six years needed a substantial overhaul (exterior, interior, powertrain, features) just two years later, after disappointing sale results.
Even '02 WRX, which was probably their last real hit (by this I mean product that substantially changed their image and sales results from previous generation) aged too fast. Reason - it was shining when there was nobody else around, but once new kids came around it couldn't really keep up.
I'm afraid Forester will be just like Impreza: yes, good, but the list of underwhelming issues will be quite long. Diesel would absolutely offset those complaints. Same with new Legacy, Tribeca or even Impreza (could compete with TDI from Volkswagen and steal some Corolla/Civic high mpg people, too).
You may be right, but with proper transmission it may actually be still OK. Remember the torque on that thing would probably put it in comparable range with 3 liter V6 gas engines. It might be slower, but if you get double mpg from big gas engine and the price is right (which is a big if, of course) - it might do allright.
I say you hit the high-volume cars first, so not the Tribeca, but the Outback first. Then the Forester.
Subaru is a niche make already. Diesel Subaru would be a niche-within-a-niche.
The Tribeca is not going to pick up a lot of volume with a diesel, it just won't happen. That segment is brutally competitive, and it's a bit small compared to the newer entries. If they put a diesel in the Tribeca, they may as well wait until the (likely bigger) gen II model and launch it at the same time.
The 09 Forester is going to be a hit, despite the market entering a recession, so it's a natural choice. The Outback has so many existing customers that if even 10% of them would upgrade to a newer diesel there would be wait lists. It has the most potential.
On top of all that, the diesel is already fitted to the Outback, so it's ready to go.
So I think Outback or Forester would be the natural first choice.
They can do the Forester and Impreza at the same time. That's what I expect to happen. A diesel Impreza will be cheaper than a diesel Forester, so those looking for the cheapest Subie diesel will opt for the Impreza.
They may test the waters with a single model first. I'm not sure they'll plan for 3 from the get-go. We'll see.
Look at the H6, and how slow that rollout came. We still don't get it with a manual to this day, what, 7 years after its intro?
But that's what I'm talking about. Witholding, underdelivering, underwhelming, all for reasons we all know. Then of course big surprise the sales don't reach expected levels.
Plus HSD is a non-starter in Europe, period, so they are probably looking maximize any investment made over the widest audience possible. Also, hearing that Honda is going diesel in the US probably made the decision a bit easier.
Absolutely, if I could only pick one, it should be the Outback to get the 50-state diesel. But from what I understand, there are a lot of similarities between it and the Tribeca mechanically? And the Tribeca very much needs to have the diesel too. I vote for them both getting it at the same time. :-)
I also vote for Subie going on a bit of a blitz in the next few years to REDUCE the weight of every model they update (and knock down the coefficient of drag as much as possible too, especially on the wagons). Other car companies are just making the barest beginnings of this now, with a few new models 50-100 pounds lighter than their predecessors. I believe Subaru engineers are every bit the equal of the ones in those companies, so I'm sure Subaru could do it too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
"Remember the diesel costs about a grand more, plus another $1500 for the extra emissions stuff it would need."
In Europe, Subaru's charging the same price for the diesel as its gasoline counterpart.
Yes, we could have an extra $1000-$1500 for a CA-spec emissions system, but at this point it sounds like that'd be the only price difference vs. gasoline. Of course it varies by what you drive now and how much you drive per year, but I'd make up that price difference with fuel savings in about 2 years.
Reaction to the diesel on the various Subie internet forums has been so strongly positive, it surely was enough to get SOA's attention. Gimme a diesel Forester (or new Outback?) in 2010 (please don't wait too long!), then gimme a G4e in 2011, and I'll be satisfied w/Subaru's commitment to better fuel economy. (I'm not asking much, am I? )
Have any of the "hybrid" car companies considerd the environment impact of the left over batteries from hybrids? Who is responsible down the road?
I'm sure they have. The batteries are designed to last the lifetime of the car - 150-200K miles. Further, the automakers have recycling programs in place. Heck Toyota even pays $200 per battery to anyone turning them in.
Remember, we've been recycling auto batteries for decades. The process to collect them is just an extension to what's in place now. It isn't like people are just going to start dumping them on the side of the road.
Shouldn't we be just as concerned about the amount of plastic in bumpers, trim, interiors,et al?
When these batteries are at the end of their service life for car usage, they are still viable for providing backup power storage for various other less power demanding (lower amperage draw) uses. I read an article some time back about many companies having storage off of their electrical rooms where they house and use these batteries. Some battery technologies do however have a real dead state and I'm not aware of the plans to handle these. The nukes already have the 'dibs' on the salt mines.
I'm far from an expert on NiMH batteries, but they're mostly made up of Nickel, a very abundant item and one that's not harmful to the environment the way a lead-acid battery is.
They're worth money, too ($200 per Rob), several companies will buy them from you. I doubt many will be tossed out.
One thing though: Best Car is reporting they may use the 2.0 from the Japanese market for the base GT. I hope before it gets to America they sub in the 2.5 from the Impreza. That teamed with RWD in a lightweight 3-door hatch like my last Celica and the concept FTHS would be my next car. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There's no way Toyota is bringing back the Celica. It died once. They resuscitated it. It died again, a dismal sales death the second time around. Why would they bring it back a third time? There is very limited market for sporty coupes, plus they have Scion TC already.
I don't know anyone who plans to recylce their hybrid. They'll just junk em. Which means it'll end up in a junk yard. I wonder if the birth to death responsibility extends to auto manufactuers? Similar to nukes.
By the way, my guess is we won't see a hybrid subie, at least not anytime soon.
Umm, no, Celica went almost 35 years without a "death", and it certainly didn't die twice. And the "dismal sales death" I think you are referring to is the last generation, which sold WAY better than the '94-'99s. It went out on a high note.
Toyota needs more sport models more than it needs AIR right now, IMO. And dare I hope that the model with the STi powertrain might be shared with Subaru (or both trims, even?)? I like the Impreza and all, but one of my fave Imprezas ever was the 2.5 RS coupe with the enormous moonroof. Too bad that didn't sell better. I would love to see a version of the STi with two doors and a trunk (or a fastback-shaped hatch like the last Celica), and that huuuuge moonroof. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
5 EAT makes the Impreza much more interesting. If it's an option for WRX, I would try hard to overlook lack of power seat and black interior. Still, a pity 5 EAT didn't get into the Forester instead.
am wondering if there are any bits regarding the Outback - like broadening torque curves for '09 ?
The last gen Celica was such an extremely poor seller and was the reason Toyota virtually pulled out of sporty coupes. For a while, there were lots of rumors about Toyota bringing back even the mighty Supra, but that turned out to be just that - a rumor.
There is simply no market for sporty coupes. Just look at the struggling sales of Mitsubishi Eclipse. Eclipse used to be the darling of coupes in the 90's. Celica was a huge seller in the 80's and early 90's. But in late 90's, the market took a 180 degree turn, and sports cars simply died. The Camaro/Firebird, the Probe, Stealth/3000GT, 240SX, to name a few. The Mustang is barely hanging in there. Nissan brought back the Z, but even a legendary car like that is barely selling.
Toyota tried to revive the MR2 at one point, and look where that wound up. Already having the TC, I doubt they will waste their time with another sporty coupe. Just doesn't make sense.
that in 2010 they will have a new lightweight RWD sport coupe. I just didn't know that they were collaborating with Subaru on its design, but that makes perfect sense. I hope this rumor comes to fruition.
And Toyota has promised a starting price under $20K for this new model. It is hoping to compete, I think, with Honda's reinvention of its CRX, also promised to start "well" under $20K.
And samiam: while it's true that sporty coupes have lost a lot of market share, it stretches the truth more than I'm comfortable with to say that the Mustang is "barely hanging in there". They have sold more Mustangs in the few years since the last redesign than they did in the whole decade before that. Honda's Civic EX coupe is popular too. And as far as I can tell, Honda is also selling every Civic SI it hoped to sell as well. Coupes are out there, and it's time Subaru had one in the Impreza line again! (yes yes yes) :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I don't know anyone who plans to recylce their hybrid. They'll just junk em. Which means it'll end up in a junk yard.
Consumers aren't expected to recycle them directly - that'll be done by repair shops and automotive recycling yards. When the batteries or the vehicle reach the end of their life, they should be recycled then. Heck Europe requires vehicles to be recycled and many automakers design for disassembly so that when the vehicle reaches the end of it's life, it's easy to recycle.
You act as if all these batteries are going to be dumped in a river out behind the garage. Repair shops and automotive recycling yards are quite adept at following regulations and recycling the current batteries, fluids, catalytic converters, plastics and metals. Besides if Toyota is offering a $200 bounty, trust me - recyclers are going to do it. That's more than what they get for an entire vehicle.
Lastly, do you thing the typical hybrid driver is going to allow illegal dumping of something that came out of his car??
Will some not get recycled? Of course - I'm not that stupid. But for the most part, I expect the vast majority of them to be.
Well, Toyota has made a point of making A/C standard on every model now. Even the $11K base Yaris has it. So I think we would see a standard power package and A/C. CD too. But I agree that when Toyota promises "under $20K" it usually means $19,995, NOT including destination.
Presumably Subaru could sell their version (if they were to get one) at the same base price? Look at the equipment in the $17K version of the Impreza. I am hoping all the same stuff would be standard in the $20K Imprez-elica (plus alloys). Another $1000 for fog lights and the moooooonroof, and I'm there. I have waited a long time for the reinvention of the 2.5RS coupe. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The metal itself may be inocuous, but the process of extracting nickel from raw is very harmful. Like most metals, by the way.
I read an article several years ago that said based on the vehicle's complete lifecycle (raw material production to death), a Toyota Prius is more harmful to the environment than a Hummer. The article mentioned, as you did, the very harmful environmental impact of producing the batteries.
I recall the article, too, but it made a fundamentally stupid assumption - namely, that the Hummer would last 300,000 miles and the Prius would only last 100,000.
The latter is just absurd. In PZEV states the warranty is 100k miles, so to assume it will drop dead at the end of the warranty, and the entire vehicle will be useless at that point, indicates they had a clear anti-hybrid agenda.
Look on cars.com right now - you'll find Priuses for sale with over 200k miles on them. Honestly, how many do you think will be retired at less than 100k? 1% maybe?
Keep in mind they didn't just assume the batteries would be dead at 100k, they assume the WHOLE CAR would be recycled at that point. :mad:
Comments
It is gearing. You usually end up with decent 0-40 acceleration, but top gear is "real" overdrive, i.e. car struggles to accelerate 10 mph at speeds over 50 mph. Their 0-60 numbers are in low teens.
There are ways. We got used to that silly horsepower war and 0-60 in 8.0 as "minimum". New mandates and gas crunch will make us rethink what slow is. The fact that we can doesn't mean we must.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-mike
http://www.baltimoresun.com/business/bal-bz.gas31jan31,0,3388247.story
Bob
Bob
Even '02 WRX, which was probably their last real hit (by this I mean product that substantially changed their image and sales results from previous generation) aged too fast. Reason - it was shining when there was nobody else around, but once new kids came around it couldn't really keep up.
I'm afraid Forester will be just like Impreza: yes, good, but the list of underwhelming issues will be quite long. Diesel would absolutely offset those complaints. Same with new Legacy, Tribeca or even Impreza (could compete with TDI from Volkswagen and steal some Corolla/Civic high mpg people, too).
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
Subaru is a niche make already. Diesel Subaru would be a niche-within-a-niche.
The Tribeca is not going to pick up a lot of volume with a diesel, it just won't happen. That segment is brutally competitive, and it's a bit small compared to the newer entries. If they put a diesel in the Tribeca, they may as well wait until the (likely bigger) gen II model and launch it at the same time.
The 09 Forester is going to be a hit, despite the market entering a recession, so it's a natural choice. The Outback has so many existing customers that if even 10% of them would upgrade to a newer diesel there would be wait lists. It has the most potential.
On top of all that, the diesel is already fitted to the Outback, so it's ready to go.
So I think Outback or Forester would be the natural first choice.
I do expect a "proper" Tribeca diesel, but a year or two after the H4 diesel arrives on their smaller cars.
Bob
Save that for 3rd.
Bob
Look at the H6, and how slow that rollout came. We still don't get it with a manual to this day, what, 7 years after its intro?
Cost concerns have also kept the 5EAT out of the Impreza and Forester.
Remember the diesel costs about a grand more, plus another $1500 for the extra emissions stuff it would need.
That would push an Impreza 2.5D well in to the $20s.
Bob
Look at the H6, and how slow that rollout came. We still don't get it with a manual to this day, what, 7 years after its intro?
But that's what I'm talking about. Witholding, underdelivering, underwhelming, all for reasons we all know. Then of course big surprise the sales don't reach expected levels.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
To come out with 3 models all at once would be betting the farm.
I do think they need one sincere effort, i.e. one no-excuses model that had the right transmission, legal in all 50 states, priced right, etc.
Time for a survey - what model should that be? If you could only pick one?
Even though I'd prefer to see a Forester, I'm going to say Outback diesel.
They may have looked at the boxer and decided there weren't enough synergies, so they sent Subaru in the diesel direction instead.
25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 03 Montero Ltd
I also vote for Subie going on a bit of a blitz in the next few years to REDUCE the weight of every model they update (and knock down the coefficient of drag as much as possible too, especially on the wagons). Other car companies are just making the barest beginnings of this now, with a few new models 50-100 pounds lighter than their predecessors. I believe Subaru engineers are every bit the equal of the ones in those companies, so I'm sure Subaru could do it too.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In Europe, Subaru's charging the same price for the diesel as its gasoline counterpart.
Yes, we could have an extra $1000-$1500 for a CA-spec emissions system, but at this point it sounds like that'd be the only price difference vs. gasoline. Of course it varies by what you drive now and how much you drive per year, but I'd make up that price difference with fuel savings in about 2 years.
Around me, diesel is very expensive, well over the price of even premium fuel. I see 50-60 cents/gallon difference, it's crazy.
Still, you'd break even before the warranty was up, and have tons of range.
From our visit to SOA yesterday, I'd have to say, look for the diesel technology to be the way that SOA goes, not hybrid.
-mike
Oh, and I'll buy them both and stay brand loyal.
I'm sure they have. The batteries are designed to last the lifetime of the car - 150-200K miles. Further, the automakers have recycling programs in place. Heck Toyota even pays $200 per battery to anyone turning them in.
Remember, we've been recycling auto batteries for decades. The process to collect them is just an extension to what's in place now. It isn't like people are just going to start dumping them on the side of the road.
Shouldn't we be just as concerned about the amount of plastic in bumpers, trim, interiors,et al?
The nukes already have the 'dibs' on the salt mines.
Alan
98 OBW Ltd 144,000 miles
They're worth money, too ($200 per Rob), several companies will buy them from you. I doubt many will be tossed out.
One thing though: Best Car is reporting they may use the 2.0 from the Japanese market for the base GT. I hope before it gets to America they sub in the 2.5 from the Impreza. That teamed with RWD in a lightweight 3-door hatch like my last Celica and the concept FTHS would be my next car. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Celica would be lighter, at least in theory. Could be quite the performance bargain, actually.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
By the way, my guess is we won't see a hybrid subie, at least not anytime soon.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
5EAT should be here in the impreza very soon as well....
Look for a moonroof option...
Also who was asking about the heated seats and mirrors and windshield? It is available on the WRX, at least the one that SDC had on the 48hrs.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
Toyota needs more sport models more than it needs AIR right now, IMO. And dare I hope that the model with the STi powertrain might be shared with Subaru (or both trims, even?)? I like the Impreza and all, but one of my fave Imprezas ever was the 2.5 RS coupe with the enormous moonroof. Too bad that didn't sell better. I would love to see a version of the STi with two doors and a trunk (or a fastback-shaped hatch like the last Celica), and that huuuuge moonroof. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
5 EAT makes the Impreza much more interesting. If it's an option for WRX, I would try hard to overlook lack of power seat and black interior. Still, a pity 5 EAT didn't get into the Forester instead.
am wondering if there are any bits regarding the Outback - like broadening torque curves for '09 ?
I know that. I was talking about the STI, in which it's not available.
Bob
There is simply no market for sporty coupes. Just look at the struggling sales of Mitsubishi Eclipse. Eclipse used to be the darling of coupes in the 90's. Celica was a huge seller in the 80's and early 90's. But in late 90's, the market took a 180 degree turn, and sports cars simply died. The Camaro/Firebird, the Probe, Stealth/3000GT, 240SX, to name a few. The Mustang is barely hanging in there. Nissan brought back the Z, but even a legendary car like that is barely selling.
Toyota tried to revive the MR2 at one point, and look where that wound up. Already having the TC, I doubt they will waste their time with another sporty coupe. Just doesn't make sense.
With RWD and that kind of power, especially under $20k, it could clean up that segment.
The only thing I doubt is the target price...under $20k? No way.
And Toyota has promised a starting price under $20K for this new model. It is hoping to compete, I think, with Honda's reinvention of its CRX, also promised to start "well" under $20K.
And samiam: while it's true that sporty coupes have lost a lot of market share, it stretches the truth more than I'm comfortable with to say that the Mustang is "barely hanging in there". They have sold more Mustangs in the few years since the last redesign than they did in the whole decade before that. Honda's Civic EX coupe is popular too. And as far as I can tell, Honda is also selling every Civic SI it hoped to sell as well. Coupes are out there, and it's time Subaru had one in the Impreza line again! (yes yes yes) :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I hope I'm wrong, though.
Give it a glass roof like the tC and it might even replace my Miata.
Consumers aren't expected to recycle them directly - that'll be done by repair shops and automotive recycling yards. When the batteries or the vehicle reach the end of their life, they should be recycled then. Heck Europe requires vehicles to be recycled and many automakers design for disassembly so that when the vehicle reaches the end of it's life, it's easy to recycle.
You act as if all these batteries are going to be dumped in a river out behind the garage. Repair shops and automotive recycling yards are quite adept at following regulations and recycling the current batteries, fluids, catalytic converters, plastics and metals. Besides if Toyota is offering a $200 bounty, trust me - recyclers are going to do it. That's more than what they get for an entire vehicle.
Lastly, do you thing the typical hybrid driver is going to allow illegal dumping of something that came out of his car??
Will some not get recycled? Of course - I'm not that stupid. But for the most part, I expect the vast majority of them to be.
Presumably Subaru could sell their version (if they were to get one) at the same base price? Look at the equipment in the $17K version of the Impreza. I am hoping all the same stuff would be standard in the $20K Imprez-elica (plus alloys). Another $1000 for fog lights and the moooooonroof, and I'm there. I have waited a long time for the reinvention of the 2.5RS coupe. :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I read an article several years ago that said based on the vehicle's complete lifecycle (raw material production to death), a Toyota Prius is more harmful to the environment than a Hummer. The article mentioned, as you did, the very harmful environmental impact of producing the batteries.
The latter is just absurd. In PZEV states the warranty is 100k miles, so to assume it will drop dead at the end of the warranty, and the entire vehicle will be useless at that point, indicates they had a clear anti-hybrid agenda.
Look on cars.com right now - you'll find Priuses for sale with over 200k miles on them. Honestly, how many do you think will be retired at less than 100k? 1% maybe?
Keep in mind they didn't just assume the batteries would be dead at 100k, they assume the WHOLE CAR would be recycled at that point. :mad: