I read an article several years ago that said based on the vehicle's complete lifecycle (raw material production to death), a Toyota Prius is more harmful to the environment than a Hummer. The article mentioned, as you did, the very harmful environmental impact of producing the batteries.
Here's a newsflash (no pun intended ) - any article that tries to make a point about something is usually quite biased in that direction and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Media thrives on sensationalism, not necessarily facts.
You should check out the "Talk to the Press" thread.
The media search for very, very specific groups of people.
If it's an article about small cars, they ask for "people that traded-in their gas guzzling SUVs for a smaller car". Not exactly a representative sample of the population.
Here's a newsflash (no pun intended ) - any article that tries to make a point about something is usually quite biased in that direction and should be taken with a grain of salt.
Media thrives on sensationalism, not necessarily facts.
You act as if all these batteries are going to be dumped in a river out behind the garage. Repair shops and automotive recycling yards are quite adept at following regulations and recycling the current batteries, fluids, catalytic converters, plastics and metals. Besides if Toyota is offering a $200 bounty, trust me - recyclers are going to do it. That's more than what they get for an entire vehicle.
No they are gonna end up at a junk yard next to the wetlands in Linden, NJ or just about any other "industrial" area. I guess I'm jaded cause I actually see the piles and piles of trashed cars at these junk yards every day. If they were even 50% "hybrids" that would be a lot of batterys and battery components laying around.
Toyota needs more sport models more than it needs AIR right now, IMO. And dare I hope that the model with the STi powertrain might be shared with Subaru (or both trims, even?)? I like the Impreza and all, but one of my fave Imprezas ever was the 2.5 RS coupe with the enormous moonroof. Too bad that didn't sell better. I would love to see a version of the STi with two doors and a trunk (or a fastback-shaped hatch like the last Celica), and that huuuuge moonroof.
Um I think you are mistaken, the 2.5RS did not have a "huge" moonroof. It only looked big because it was metal and retracted outside the car rather than inside the car!
Well, the market is indeed much smaller, but like you said, all the competition has gone away.
With RWD and that kind of power, especially under $20k, it could clean up that segment.
The only thing I doubt is the target price...under $20k? No way.
I'm not sure about cleaning up. Hyundai already will have almost 2 years under their belt with the I4turbo RWD Coupe and the V6 RWD Coupe due out this spring. However it's all a very good thing to see. I actually see the Hyundai becoming the next miataesque racecar on the club racing circuit if they keep the weight and cost down.
They updated it with a rather pathetic explanation of why the Prius would only last 100k miles (using OE tire life as one reason? are they serious?).
In total they have had to author 7 responses explaining their (flawed) logic in conducting that test.
IMHO the worst offense is that they ignore reliability completely. Fact is, people will retire old cars when they cannot rely on them any more, or when the cost of repairs exceeds the value of the cars.
The Hummer has dismal reliability, and the Prius is excellent. It's absurd to ignore that.
Good point, Hyundai's coupe does look like it has a lot of potential. They seem to be targeting the Mustang, though, for whatever reason. So I think of it as a pony car.
The Celica would be lighter and more efficient, more sport compact.
No they are gonna end up at a junk yard next to the wetlands in Linden, NJ or just about any other "industrial" area. I guess I'm jaded cause I actually see the piles and piles of trashed cars at these junk yards every day. If they were even 50% "hybrids" that would be a lot of batterys and battery components laying around.
And I guess I'm an optimist. I would presume that most of those vehicles you see have not been sitting there for very long. Those cars don't spend much time in the yard and are recycled fairly quickly. That industry isn't about letting product sit. It's about stripping parts that can be resold profitably and then turning and churning and getting value for the rest. Steel, plastics, batteries, et al all have value and auto recycling is more about unlocking that value in terms of scrap and recycling and less about stockpiling and hoping to sell used alternators and fenders.
As I said, that $200 that Toyota is paying is more than what they'll get for an entire vehicle in terms of scrap steel. The smart "junk yard" will turn that into cash flow.
Well, they were just trying to be sensational. The Hummer comparo is ludicrous but the enviro cost of a Scion being superior to the Prius is valid, although they didn't bother to state what the life expectancy of the XB was. Assuming 300k for the Prius would still yield $1.08 per mile.
They dropped the Legacy GT and Outback XT! Think that will happen here too? Remember we found out first about the '09 Forester XT 5-speed being dropped from Canada.
These are the models that change people's opinion of Subaru. It's always the turbo models that get the good reviews and awards, generating interest in the brand and boosting the reputation.
Sorry, my Canadian neighbors. I hope we don't end up in the same boat.
Perhaps they think this is part of diversifying the lineup. Keep the turbo in the Impreza/Forester, put the 3.6 H6 in upcoming new Legacy/Outback. Unfortunately, IMHO, it dilutes their lineage.
It sounds like they're simplifying the lineup, and to make it less confusing for customers.
If you think about it, the automatic Legacy GT competes with the H-6 Legacy for customers, and by not having a 5-speed Legacy GT, more customers might opt for the spec.B.
Same with the Outback XT; it competes with the Outback H-6. As to the 5-speed manual model, I suspect not enough were sold to justify keeping it.
Some good could come out of this for the WRX: Maybe it will now get the higher horsepower power rating that the L-GT had?
There is certainly nothing confusing about the Subaru lineup. Recall juice's comments about Toyota and its packaging... does not seem to hurt them any.
When I was in the lower 48 with my '08 Outback last fall, I saw several other Outbacks, and every one of them was an XT. I would surprise them to be quite popular, especially in places where AWD is chosen more for performance than safety.
2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
They won't drop the H6. The image is more upscale and a turbo, and thus more in keeping with the Legacy and Outback image. Also, except for gearheads like us, many customers are still wary of turbos. They would likely opt for the H6 over the turbo.
I suspect the 3.6 will replace the 3.0 for 2010 in the Legacy and Outback, when they are redesigned. This move is just Subaru easing into that transition.
One other thing it does is further separate the Legacy/Outback from the Impreza/Forester. The model lines will be more distinct, which will result is less cross-shopping between all the models. It make it a bit easier for customers.
That's too bad. On another front going back to a prior discussion, the Canadian STi does come with 4 level heated seats. Are you sure they aren't on the US spec.? They aren't listed with the interior features, but rather down at the bottom under "Trim and Seating". Oh, and did I mention I've sat in one? WRB at our local dealer. It keeps calling me..
They won't drop the H6. The image is more upscale and a turbo, and thus more in keeping with the Legacy and Outback image. Also, except for gearheads like us, many customers are still wary of turbos. They would likely opt for the H6 over the turbo.
I am one of them. I plan to hand down my 06 3.0R wagon to my sons in about 5 or 6 years. I would rather have an H6 with 150K on it than a turbo any day.
Shrinking lineup is never a good thing. Less is less, period. It sometimes has to be done to stop the bleeding, but it's never a good thing.
And Mike thought they'd drop 2.5i when the new chassis comes. If their 3.6 comes to deliver real performance than GT/XT may not be missed - as long as manual is still provided in some form. I'm not holding my breath at all, though. So far it's like they sit in my head - and then they do the opposite just to spite me. Pretty much resigned to going other places
I don't agree with that. I see it merely as making their product lineup more rational and logical; trimming the fat and fine-tuning it to better fit the needs of their customers.
That would certainly make things easier to figure out and streamline things for the 09 model year. Here is the other thing. The 09MY is going to be extremely short as the 10MY is due to ship next spring, similar to the way the 09 Forester is up for sale now.
My predictions for 10MY:
Legacy 2.5i or 2.5t or a 2.5d (really think a 2.5t or 2.5d as a base, unless we get 200hp out of a 2.5i engine) 3.6 3.6t
The base above with a 5EAT or 5MT Both 3.6 engines would have a 6EAT/CVT or 6MT
Outback 2.5i or 2.5t or a 2.5d (see above) 3.6 3.6t (This isn't likely but possible)
Not sure it would be a good for Subaru USA to kill the XT Outback (then again, Subaru Canada may have totally different market needs).
I too am wary of Turbos and Subaru's insistence on premium gas and short oil change intervals. Unfortunately, the H6 is not particularly peppy (low end torque and throttle response aren't great). The 3.6I would be a huge help, but hints on these forums give me major doubt that Subaru will do that for '09.
It would make more sense if Subaru, when (if ??) they kill off the XT Outback for '09, does __something__ to the H6 to make it more tractable at low rpms. They've been doing that to the rest of their engine lineup, so why wait until '09 to tweek the Outback?
I highly doubt we'll see much change if any for the MY09. With less than a year til the 3.6L NA 300hp engine goes into the Legacy/Outback, there is little point.
Yeah, I agree. Subaru usually makes their last model year a lame duck year. However, I think whatever changes they do make, will hint at what's to follow for 2010. It may be a very subtle styling tweak, or even as we're seeing with Canada, a slight model re-alignment.
Agreed, I think we've already seen that with the face-lift and tail lift on the 08 models. I'm getting excited for the '10 Legacy, gonna be starting to save up a down payment for one of them shortly.
I too am wary of Turbos and Subaru's insistence on premium gas and short oil change intervals.
Do you even know what turbo is? It's this little piece rotating at speed over five times of those of the engine. This piece pumps the air so pressure in the cumbustion chamber is higher. So you have a rotating bearing going at 15-20K rpm that needs lubrication and gas-air mixture burning at higher pressure than naturally aspirated engines, which means combustion needs to be well-controlled.
Unlike most others, Subaru doesn't require synthetic for their turbos - that has to come with the price of more frequent changes. Also - show me another "hard" turbo car not requiring premium gas.
I know very well what a turbo is, and have visited several sites, including one aftermarket maker of turbos for Subarus, who pointed out turbos can cause real trouble (one issue was "banjo bolt" filters that needed regular cleaning to avoid Subaru turbo oil starvation). And folks I knew in Los Angeles were installing aftermarket turbo oil feed pumps or idling their cars for several minutes to avoid "coking" the turbo bearings. Also, what little I can find out in CU's reliability records also point to more problems with Subaru's turbo engines than the H6.
My point was the turbos need more care than normally aspirated engines.
BTW, Mazda now offers a turbo that uses Regular (in this year's Cx7, I believe), so it is possible to do away with premium fuel "required" for a turbo. I'm glad to see there are ways to control engine combustion than just throwing Premium at it. Subaru did that with their 3.6I engine, but it's not in the Outback --- yet.
...and though this forum's the wrong place, I welcome some suggestions how to keep turbos healthy and happy. Two subies I'm considering have turbos, and I want either of them to last a long time.
Just make sure to change the oil on schedule. I suggest using synthetic oil.
I run a 100% stock 1994 Subaru Legacy Turbo with 150k miles on the race track where ambient temps are in the 90-100 degree range and it runs at or near redline for 30min to 3hrs at a time. No issues.
I have a 2005 Legacy GT that I also track usually 30 min sessions, no turbo issues in 50k miles and on the street push it pretty hard too.
There are no extra oil pumps or idling required, IF you do your oil and filter changes at the recommended intervals.
Synthetic is a must., Everywhere else in the world they use it - it's only America's backwards culture of oil changes that did not phase out minerals. :P
I didn't know bout CX7. Must be different than that in MS6 or MS3. Probably soft turbo - like one in some Volvo's (also regular). Most turbos are "hard", though.
Fair enough - which of course means the "culture" of cheap oil extends into the filter . But isn't also the molecular structure (length of molecules) that matters, too? Especially on tight turbo bearings?
It's called CAMGUARD, made for aircraft engines by a former Exxon chemist. However, the chemist (who's forumlated other successful products for various companies) advised it's fine to use in Auto engines. It enhances oil's resistance to high temperature burnoff, reducing deposits.
Even Dino Oil these days is generally good to 7k miles. Synthetics are good to 10K+ The Amsoil I run is good for 25-30k miles. Problem is that the filters are good for 3-5k max (std filters) so the fact that the oil itself breaks down later isn't a factor.
For the small cost of the synthetics, I run them in all my vehicles I can run em in. I also run the best filters I can find to help with extended changes.
I would love to see that. The only real issues are pricing and wagon/man transmission avaialability. So far they did not fail to disapoint me since 2005.
You did not get the double negative here "they did not fail to disapoint since " means they disapoint continuously year over year since 2005. "Sarkasm" is the right description of my previous post.
Which reminds me that I need to send the CEO and CFO e-mails with the wagon requirement for the legacy line for MY10 w/MT.
I did have a thought on the reason for dropping the wagon. Perhaps they dropped it due to the launch of the 5-door Impreza and WRX? If the LGT Wagon was still available why would one buy the WRX 5-door? More power, more refinement, similar cabin space, larger cargo area, and only a slightly higher price tag, why would anyone get the WRX 5-door? Just a random thought I had on it today at work.
Main difference is demographics. If the WRX styling was more like STI (which it should), you'll have different people shopping them with little cross-shopping.
By the way - sometimes similar size helps you. After introducing larger Altima (early zeroes), Maxima sales went up, not down - yet Altima sales were still better than previous. Two good things are better than one. Choice brings traffic, thus chance of sale of either product, lack of choice reduces it, thus chance of selling the only product goes down. It is really quite simple - at least up to certain levels, when marginal gains diminish - with Subaru whoping vast lineup, that point is far away.
I wouldn't be surprised to see the wagon again since it'll be on a larger chassis. The Leg and the WRX are very similar in interior volume and if the WRX is cheaper with a fresher design, then why not? - I didn't say the design was refreshing..
Comments
The idea that they'll be recycled by 100k miles (even on average) is ludicrous.
Here's a newsflash (no pun intended
Media thrives on sensationalism, not necessarily facts.
The media search for very, very specific groups of people.
If it's an article about small cars, they ask for "people that traded-in their gas guzzling SUVs for a smaller car". Not exactly a representative sample of the population.
Media thrives on sensationalism, not necessarily facts.
I didn't say that I agreed with the article. :P
No they are gonna end up at a junk yard next to the wetlands in Linden, NJ or just about any other "industrial" area. I guess I'm jaded cause I actually see the piles and piles of trashed cars at these junk yards every day. If they were even 50% "hybrids" that would be a lot of batterys and battery components laying around.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
Um I think you are mistaken, the 2.5RS did not have a "huge" moonroof. It only looked big because it was metal and retracted outside the car rather than inside the car!
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
With RWD and that kind of power, especially under $20k, it could clean up that segment.
The only thing I doubt is the target price...under $20k? No way.
I'm not sure about cleaning up. Hyundai already will have almost 2 years under their belt with the I4turbo RWD Coupe and the V6 RWD Coupe due out this spring. However it's all a very good thing to see. I actually see the Hyundai becoming the next miataesque racecar on the club racing circuit if they keep the weight and cost down.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
I dug up that old link, here's the story:
http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/
They updated it with a rather pathetic explanation of why the Prius would only last 100k miles (using OE tire life as one reason? are they serious?).
In total they have had to author 7 responses explaining their (flawed) logic in conducting that test.
IMHO the worst offense is that they ignore reliability completely. Fact is, people will retire old cars when they cannot rely on them any more, or when the cost of repairs exceeds the value of the cars.
The Hummer has dismal reliability, and the Prius is excellent. It's absurd to ignore that.
The Celica would be lighter and more efficient, more sport compact.
And I guess I'm an optimist. I would presume that most of those vehicles you see have not been sitting there for very long. Those cars don't spend much time in the yard and are recycled fairly quickly. That industry isn't about letting product sit. It's about stripping parts that can be resold profitably and then turning and churning and getting value for the rest. Steel, plastics, batteries, et al all have value and auto recycling is more about unlocking that value in terms of scrap and recycling and less about stockpiling and hoping to sell used alternators and fenders.
As I said, that $200 that Toyota is paying is more than what they'll get for an entire vehicle in terms of scrap steel. The smart "junk yard" will turn that into cash flow.
Here's a direct link to the PDF: http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/Hidden%20Cost%20of%20Driving%20a%20- Prius%20Commentary.pdf
I had only quickly glanced at it when I first read it. Looking at it again, all I can say is -- what are they smoking?? :confuse:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=21049526&postcount=2
Bob
These are the models that change people's opinion of Subaru. It's always the turbo models that get the good reviews and awards, generating interest in the brand and boosting the reputation.
Sorry, my Canadian neighbors.
Perhaps they think this is part of diversifying the lineup. Keep the turbo in the Impreza/Forester, put the 3.6 H6 in upcoming new Legacy/Outback. Unfortunately, IMHO, it dilutes their lineage.
This is crazy, though. Patti is driving around in an Outback XT, and she loves it so much she's probably going to buy it!
If you think about it, the automatic Legacy GT competes with the H-6 Legacy for customers, and by not having a 5-speed Legacy GT, more customers might opt for the spec.B.
Same with the Outback XT; it competes with the Outback H-6. As to the 5-speed manual model, I suspect not enough were sold to justify keeping it.
Some good could come out of this for the WRX: Maybe it will now get the higher horsepower power rating that the L-GT had?
Bob
When I was in the lower 48 with my '08 Outback last fall, I saw several other Outbacks, and every one of them was an XT. I would surprise them to be quite popular, especially in places where AWD is chosen more for performance than safety.
At the very least have the 3.6l H6 ready to replace both.
I suspect the 3.6 will replace the 3.0 for 2010 in the Legacy and Outback, when they are redesigned. This move is just Subaru easing into that transition.
One other thing it does is further separate the Legacy/Outback from the Impreza/Forester. The model lines will be more distinct, which will result is less cross-shopping between all the models. It make it a bit easier for customers.
Bob
I am one of them. I plan to hand down my 06 3.0R wagon to my sons in about 5 or 6 years. I would rather have an H6 with 150K on it than a turbo any day.
Bob
And Mike thought they'd drop 2.5i when the new chassis comes.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
Legacy:
2.5i
3.0r
SpecB
Outback:
2.5i
3.0r
2.5t
That would certainly make things easier to figure out and streamline things for the 09 model year. Here is the other thing. The 09MY is going to be extremely short as the 10MY is due to ship next spring, similar to the way the 09 Forester is up for sale now.
My predictions for 10MY:
Legacy
2.5i or 2.5t or a 2.5d (really think a 2.5t or 2.5d as a base, unless we get 200hp out of a 2.5i engine)
3.6
3.6t
The base above with a 5EAT or 5MT
Both 3.6 engines would have a 6EAT/CVT or 6MT
Outback
2.5i or 2.5t or a 2.5d (see above)
3.6
3.6t (This isn't likely but possible)
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
I too am wary of Turbos and Subaru's insistence on premium gas and short oil change intervals.
Unfortunately, the H6 is not particularly peppy (low end torque and throttle response aren't great). The 3.6I would be a huge help, but hints on these forums give me major doubt that Subaru will do that for '09.
It would make more sense if Subaru, when (if ??) they kill off the XT Outback for '09, does __something__ to the H6 to make it more tractable at low rpms. They've been doing that to the rest of their engine lineup, so why wait until '09 to tweek the Outback?
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
Bob
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
Do you even know what turbo is? It's this little piece rotating at speed over five times of those of the engine. This piece pumps the air so pressure in the cumbustion chamber is higher. So you have a rotating bearing going at 15-20K rpm that needs lubrication and gas-air mixture burning at higher pressure than naturally aspirated engines, which means combustion needs to be well-controlled.
Unlike most others, Subaru doesn't require synthetic for their turbos - that has to come with the price of more frequent changes. Also - show me another "hard" turbo car not requiring premium gas.
C'mon man - get a grip.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Also, what little I can find out in CU's reliability records also point to more problems with Subaru's turbo engines than the H6.
My point was the turbos need more care than normally aspirated engines.
BTW, Mazda now offers a turbo that uses Regular (in this year's Cx7, I believe), so it is possible to do away with premium fuel "required" for a turbo. I'm glad to see there are ways to control engine combustion than just throwing Premium at it.
Subaru did that with their 3.6I engine, but it's not in the Outback --- yet.
Two subies I'm considering have turbos, and I want either of them to last a long time.
I run a 100% stock 1994 Subaru Legacy Turbo with 150k miles on the race track where ambient temps are in the 90-100 degree range and it runs at or near redline for 30min to 3hrs at a time. No issues.
I have a 2005 Legacy GT that I also track usually 30 min sessions, no turbo issues in 50k miles and on the street push it pretty hard too.
There are no extra oil pumps or idling required, IF you do your oil and filter changes at the recommended intervals.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Not to be picky but it's really not the oil that breaks down, it's the filters. So if you run synthetic you need to run an extended life filter.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
2018 430i Gran Coupe
It enhances oil's resistance to high temperature burnoff, reducing deposits.
For the small cost of the synthetics, I run them in all my vehicles I can run em in. I also run the best filters I can find to help with extended changes.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
At least wait until the 3.6l H6 is ready.
At the same time, the spec.B should get more power, since it resides at the top in the Legacy hierarchy.
I say leave the engine lineup as is for 2009, then, for 2010, have:
base 2.5l H4
clean diesel 2.5l H4
3.6l H6
2.5T for the spec. B with STI power levels
2018 430i Gran Coupe
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Speak to me sloooowwwly.
I did have a thought on the reason for dropping the wagon. Perhaps they dropped it due to the launch of the 5-door Impreza and WRX? If the LGT Wagon was still available why would one buy the WRX 5-door? More power, more refinement, similar cabin space, larger cargo area, and only a slightly higher price tag, why would anyone get the WRX 5-door? Just a random thought I had on it today at work.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
By the way - sometimes similar size helps you. After introducing larger Altima (early zeroes), Maxima sales went up, not down - yet Altima sales were still better than previous. Two good things are better than one. Choice brings traffic, thus chance of sale of either product, lack of choice reduces it, thus chance of selling the only product goes down. It is really quite simple - at least up to certain levels, when marginal gains diminish - with Subaru whoping vast lineup, that point is far away.
2018 430i Gran Coupe