My guess is that they don't pass US Safety requirements. Interestingly, hybrids are now begining to have an increase in insurance rates from what I've heard due to the environmental issues and safety issues in the event of an accident. I have a few friends who are fire fighters and they have to call the DEC whenever there is a hybrid accident and a few fire fighters have been electricuted due to hybrids tagging guard rails and electrifying the guard rails...
I have a few friends who are fire fighters and they have to call the DEC whenever there is a hybrid accident and a few fire fighters have been electricuted due to hybrids tagging guard rails and electrifying the guard rails...
If they've been electrocuted, it's because the battery boxes have been opened up either by the force of the crash or by a firefighter not following procedure.
In reality, hybrids are fairly safe when in a crash. Power is not supplied unless multiple situations are met. Cutting through the power lines is not common because they run through the bottom of the vehicle not the pillars where most cutting is done.
Following standard rescue procedures of turning the ignition off, cutting the negative cables or removing the main fuse will kill power to the high voltage batteries and will ensure the airbags don't deploy - a common incident that could also kill a rescue worker.
A properly trained rescue worker will know what to do - it's really no different than dealing with downed power lines.
I'd like to see where you found that insurance rates are going up for hybrids. I could see rates being high due to the cost of the battery but I doubt from environmental and safety to others issue.
Pure electric cars are useless IMO. With a range of just 50 miles, even more so. I think GM has the right idea of having an electric car (the Volt I think) which has a gasoline engine on board to charge the batteries, or you can plug it in overnight.
Pure electric = up the creek without a paddle once you run out of juice.
Not sure where I read that, though. I think it was in a car mag.
Back in 2005, Car & Driver did have a column written by Brock Yates (editorial comment: blowhard) in which he claimed that firefighters were refusing to attempt rescues involving hybrids.
Fire fighters electricuted by crashed hybrid cars? Sounds like urban legend to me.
I have several friends who are professional fire fighters (FDNY, Union NJ FD) and they all agree (and don't know each other) about the electrical issue as well as the environmental issue. As for "treating them like downed power lines" yup that would be great IF you know the car is a hybrid, however many are not marked as such and therefore all would need to be treated that way. As for the insurance increase, friends in the insurance business said it hasn't happened yet but it will be coming shortly. Anytime the DEC needs to come out to a crash scene as well as the Coast Guard (in the NY/NJ area cause the spills end up in the rivers/oceans) the insurance companies will start to pass those extra costs on to the customers... Similar to the old V8 v. I4 insurance rates on cars due to higher likelyhood of accidents.
Sure it's not for everyone, but the average US commute to & from work is somewhere between 30-35 miles per day. That 50-mile range (which I agree is a little slim... put it around 80-120 miles & it'd be much better) would allow a little extra for a stop by the grocery store or to pick a child up from school. It'd be a perfect 2nd car for my family. 80% of the time, 50 miles would be well within my daily needs.
I believe they advertise the R1 as "2+2" seating, and I'd definitely want them to keep the rear seat for occasional use. Sure it's cramped, but at least you could carry an extra kid a mile to school. Without at least having the option, the versatility goes WAY down, and I would not be able to buy one. I own a 2-seater now, and that's been my experience, anyway. It's our 3rd car... no way I could get by with it as our second car.
Yep, good start. Nice to see it in so many trim levels (unlike the new Forester, where you only get the top sound system if you get nav, which is a big price jump and also limits you to a single disc rather than 6-disc CD.) Wow... amp in the Outback is 440w?! That's a huge leap, IIRC. Funny they mention Subaru now using Harmon/Kardon like BMW & Mercedes, but they don't mention that Buick also uses it. :P
This Subaru page from the NY Auto Show, announcing the Harmon/Kardon audio upgrades, tells us the following trims will be offered: Legacy: 2.5i with Premium Package, 2.5i Limited, 2.5GT Limited, 2.5GT spec.B, 3.0R, and 3.0R Limited. (Interesting to note a non-limited 3.0R sedan!) Outback: 2.5i with Premium Package, 2.5i Limited L.L.Bean® Edition, 2.5XT Limited, 3.0R Limited. (Looks like they're cutting down on the number of Bean models, and no H6 Bean!) http://www.subaru.com/sub/misc/2009/nyautoshow/audio/index.html From Bob's post a few spots up, sounds like we can also add base and 2.5i trims to each model.
Looks like I was wrong. There apparently is a US-spec Legacy GT and Outback XT according to that link. I thought, because Canada dropped those trim levels for '09, that the US versions would also be dropped.
"...and now my sales guy won't be happy, as I may now hold off on the Outback until the fall or whenever these start appearing."
If I had to guess, I'd say the '09s will start to arrive at dealers sometime in May. And I don't think they'll hike the price at all. Is it the Harmon/Kardon that could sway you toward Outback over Forester?
And as a side note to others... I miss Weatherband. It was a unique feature that was very Subaru. What other brand would you expect to see that on? Can't think of any except maybe Jeep. Oh well. Its demise certainly isn't enough to keep me from buying another Subaru, but it was a cool quirk.
I agree, the 09 shouldn't change much in price as it's the last of the "small" legacies. You will see a jump in price next year on the 2010 model which will be bigger and pricier.
dealer I talked to said that Subaru won't be delivering '09 Outbacks until this fall, so that's a bit away. Also they suggested there might very well be a price bump of some kind to accomidate the new audio. And sounds like the '10 Outback will be out of my price range anyway - the current one is just doable.
I was driving today and thought about the R1e, here in metro NY you need a car that can go faster than 65mph. There are often times where you need to do 75-85mph in order to keep up with traffic during rush hour!
It wouldn't work in Los Angeles, CA, where top speeds are 70 mph and up, and many commuters do 100 - 120 miles a day (I did around 60 miles a day while there).
But for less sprawled settings, or short drives it sounds fine. It would work for my Oregon work commute; 30 miles per day, 50 mph top speed - is all on town / suburban streets.
Sounds like it'd work, and for that 30 miles, you'd probably spend $1 to power your day's commute instead of $4-$5. (Subaru says should cost $1.50-$2 for complete charge.) I could probably go 5 days of the week on a $2 charge! (2 days a week I'd need a little bit more range & little higher speeds, so I'd also need gas or diesel-powered vehicle 'til they increase the range.) If they get range up to 150 miles, I could probably go entirely electric and be fine except for long trips.
I doubt it will leave the city. 65mph should be OK for urban traffic.
To be honest, I rarely if ever exceed 65mph in the Miata. It's so tiny to begin with, plus with the top down even 40mph feels fast!
It would be fine for me. I drive 26 miles a day, so an 80% charge each day would probably do. Even if I forgot to plug it in the night before, I could juice it up while eating breakfast, and make it.
For many people like me who work and live in small towns, without need for long comutes and/or highways, R1e is just perfect. Drive 25-45 mph roads, for short distances (mine is about 10 miles), and have to stop often at stop lights.
But it is too bad this kind car doesn't meet the bar for places like L.A., which need so much to reduce their emissions.
Yeah I don't think it would really suit the Suburban and Urban areas that have the high volume of cars and would really make an impact. I think your situation, would probably is not even a blip on the "environmental radar" But it would be good for your pocketbook
I still think that was a silly move, but then I do not work in their accounting department.
You don't have to... bean counters should not be the prioritized reason for their screwups... GM didn't do well when they let that happen. They've taken notice and seems like things are coming around for them.
I've seriously lost hope in Subaru... They've lost more money making changes in their cosmetics dept. and when they have the opportunity to redeem themselves, they come back with a short hand. :sad:
Yup you are right, but there isn't much out there better in the AWD realm. The G8 is ok, but no MT there either and a lot of other missing items too. That's why the CTS-V and STS V8 are starting to look better as a 2nd car for me. Who knows.
Exactly when in the FALL? Especially , which month do you 2010 will arrive since I am waiting for the Clean Diesel (anxiously ). Want to sell my 2004 Outback L @ 19,0000 miles cause I use my Van (for work) and want to save for DIESEL. My understanding is Subaru aims to NOT use the urea which I prefer to VW which does use urea, and I'm spoiled by the reliability of Subaru. honda too, will produce the Accord in non-urea Diesel but I don't want a "Sedan'.
Production of the '09 Outback and Legacy begins in May (see link; go to "Industry Reference," then to "Start-Up Dates," then to "United States"), so I would expect to see them on dealer lots sometime this summer.
That price difference will likely drop as the oil refineries switch over to warm weather blend of diesel. Also, with more diesel vehicles being sold, I would hope they gear up for more diesel production, which would also lower the price a bit.
Comments
I'd consider that 2nd one, especially if that glass roof would open, but not the first.
-mike
If they've been electrocuted, it's because the battery boxes have been opened up either by the force of the crash or by a firefighter not following procedure.
In reality, hybrids are fairly safe when in a crash. Power is not supplied unless multiple situations are met. Cutting through the power lines is not common because they run through the bottom of the vehicle not the pillars where most cutting is done.
Following standard rescue procedures of turning the ignition off, cutting the negative cables or removing the main fuse will kill power to the high voltage batteries and will ensure the airbags don't deploy - a common incident that could also kill a rescue worker.
A properly trained rescue worker will know what to do - it's really no different than dealing with downed power lines.
I'd like to see where you found that insurance rates are going up for hybrids. I could see rates being high due to the cost of the battery but I doubt from environmental and safety to others issue.
Pure electric = up the creek without a paddle once you run out of juice.
Not sure where I read that, though. I think it was in a car mag.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
Back in 2005, Car & Driver did have a column written by Brock Yates (editorial comment: blowhard) in which he claimed that firefighters were refusing to attempt rescues involving hybrids.
This link:
http://cms.firehouse.com/web/online/University-of-Extrication/Hybrids-Raise-Vict- im-Extrication-Questions/19$44110
basically says that no rescue worker would refuse a rescue attempt due to a hybrid vehicle.
I have several friends who are professional fire fighters (FDNY, Union NJ FD) and they all agree (and don't know each other) about the electrical issue as well as the environmental issue. As for "treating them like downed power lines" yup that would be great IF you know the car is a hybrid, however many are not marked as such and therefore all would need to be treated that way. As for the insurance increase, friends in the insurance business said it hasn't happened yet but it will be coming shortly. Anytime the DEC needs to come out to a crash scene as well as the Coast Guard (in the NY/NJ area cause the spills end up in the rivers/oceans) the insurance companies will start to pass those extra costs on to the customers... Similar to the old V8 v. I4 insurance rates on cars due to higher likelyhood of accidents.
-mike
Motorsports and Modifications Host
I believe they advertise the R1 as "2+2" seating, and I'd definitely want them to keep the rear seat for occasional use. Sure it's cramped, but at least you could carry an extra kid a mile to school. Without at least having the option, the versatility goes WAY down, and I would not be able to buy one. I own a 2-seater now, and that's been my experience, anyway. It's our 3rd car... no way I could get by with it as our second car.
I use my Miata for a 26 miles round-trip commute. I have a van for family duites and longer trips.
I realize having more cars than drivers is not exactly common or mainstream, but then again a pure electric would be far from mainstream anyway.
Instead of trading your old gas car, you may keep it, and then a commuter electric.
FWIW, Autoweek subscribers own an average of 5.2 cars. So my 3 is very low, in comparison.
-mike
-mike
Legacy: 2.5i with Premium Package, 2.5i Limited, 2.5GT Limited, 2.5GT spec.B, 3.0R, and 3.0R Limited. (Interesting to note a non-limited 3.0R sedan!)
Outback: 2.5i with Premium Package, 2.5i Limited L.L.Bean® Edition, 2.5XT Limited, 3.0R Limited. (Looks like they're cutting down on the number of Bean models, and no H6 Bean!)
http://www.subaru.com/sub/misc/2009/nyautoshow/audio/index.html
From Bob's post a few spots up, sounds like we can also add base and 2.5i trims to each model.
Bob
Then again, who knows how much Subaru will hike the prices then.
If I have to shell out nearly $30K for a car, to keep for 6 years, it needs to be as right as possible.
My dealer salesman buddy is funny - he says the old school Subaru buyer never even cared. They just wanted weather band and talk radio.
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/4523
Bob
If he's shaking, expect rain.
Bob
If I had to guess, I'd say the '09s will start to arrive at dealers sometime in May. And I don't think they'll hike the price at all. Is it the Harmon/Kardon that could sway you toward Outback over Forester?
And as a side note to others... I miss Weatherband. It was a unique feature that was very Subaru. What other brand would you expect to see that on? Can't think of any except maybe Jeep. Oh well. Its demise certainly isn't enough to keep me from buying another Subaru, but it was a cool quirk.
-mike
Also they suggested there might very well be a price bump of some kind to accomidate the new audio.
And sounds like the '10 Outback will be out of my price range anyway - the current one is just doable.
Is Subaru going to a spring release cycle for their new cars (outback in May?), or is the Forester a one shot springtime introduction cycle ?
Can't believe you beat me to it. Sweet.
Gotta catch up on the 09 Forester thread to hear the whole story... :shades:
-mike
http://www.subaru.com/sub/misc/2009/nyautoshow/r1/index.html
Personally, I'd be OK w/the 65-MPH maximum, as I'd primarily use it on city streets, w/occasional highway/freeway use.
But for less sprawled settings, or short drives it sounds fine. It would work for my Oregon work commute; 30 miles per day, 50 mph top speed - is all on town / suburban streets.
To be honest, I rarely if ever exceed 65mph in the Miata. It's so tiny to begin with, plus with the top down even 40mph feels fast!
It would be fine for me. I drive 26 miles a day, so an 80% charge each day would probably do. Even if I forgot to plug it in the night before, I could juice it up while eating breakfast, and make it.
3.6i ~305hp H6, 5EAT only
2.5t ~275hp H4, 6MT only
2.5i ~180-190hp H4, CVT only
-mike
But it is too bad this kind car doesn't meet the bar for places like L.A., which need so much to reduce their emissions.
-mike
I'm just scared to ask - would that come in wagon flavor or sedan only?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-mike
-Dave
You don't have to... bean counters should not be the prioritized reason for their screwups... GM didn't do well when they let that happen. They've taken notice and seems like things are coming around for them.
I've seriously lost hope in Subaru... They've lost more money making changes in their cosmetics dept. and when they have the opportunity to redeem themselves, they come back with a short hand. :sad:
*Told ya Mike...* - I'm not suprised.
Yup you are right, but there isn't much out there better in the AWD realm. The G8 is ok, but no MT there either and a lot of other missing items too. That's why the CTS-V and STS V8 are starting to look better as a 2nd car for me. Who knows.
-mike
Especially , which month do you 2010 will arrive since I am waiting for the Clean Diesel (anxiously ).
Want to sell my 2004 Outback L @ 19,0000 miles cause I use my Van (for work) and want to save for DIESEL.
My understanding is Subaru aims to NOT use the urea which I prefer to VW which does use urea, and I'm spoiled by the reliability of Subaru. honda too, will produce the Accord in non-urea Diesel but I don't want a "Sedan'.
http://www.wheels.com/reference/referenceFrame.htm
The '09 US-spec Outback will not have the diesel. That won't happen before 2010 at the earliest.
Bob
3.6i ~305hp, 5EAT only
2.5t ~275hp, 6MT only
2.5i ~180hp, CVT only
-mike
I saw gas for $3.15 at Costco, and the cheapest diesel in the area was $3.99. Pretty significant difference.
Bob