By accessing this website, you acknowledge that Edmunds and its third party business partners may use cookies, pixels, and similar technologies to collect information about you and your interactions with the website as described in our
Privacy Statement, and you agree that your use of the website is subject to our
Visitor Agreement.
Comments
I read the official SOA representative on another forum clarified that the "official" confirmation was only that the Subaru version would be sold in the US, and that it could still be RWD or AWD.
Maybe they'll do something crazy, and use the tiny/light R2 platform, like Prodrive did for the P2 concept:
Light, affordable, roadster, Subaru?
Heaven. :shades:
I've been saying that from day one of learning about this news.
Bob
-mike
unless there is a major difference between the two (AWD, direct injection engine, Dual Clutch Manual, etc..).
Hopefully the Toy is RWD and the Soob is AWD.
juice,
Subaru NOT well established in the snow belt??? I think the opposite.
dave
I still think SOA will hold sway and the Subaru version will be AWD only.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2018 430i Gran Coupe
In the end Toyota only cares about their bottom line, so if Subaru does or not sell this same model is not much worry for them.
Of course, this assumes the order didn't keep Subaru from building what they need.
With that said, I sat in a G8 today. Very Very impressive car for a $32k Sticker Price! I think other than AWD the new Legacy will have some stiff competition from it, cause I bet the 2010 Legacy will come in well over $32k Sticker.
-mike
And I'll bet it won't sell at all well if it is at that price! My $35k 2005 3.0 VDC wagon didn't move off the lot of a dealer in an affluent area. So I got it below dealer cost.
An all wheel drive Ford is available at $30k or less. Yes Haldex, but the public may prefer AWD that does not require a flatbed for a tow and a lower price.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/24/business/media/24adco.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=subar- u&st=nyt&oref=slogin
links for ads there too, both OK, neither is killer IMO
The fact VW's cutting their warranty coverage by 25% for '09 inspires no confidence, or did I have any faith in a VW first year model (a brand that has one of the poorest reliability records out there).
But VW _may_ have a better AWD system than the simplified system Subaru now uses for most of their vehicles.
Now uses? They haven't changed anything. True the LSD is gone—but is replaced with VDC, which, if anything, is more complicated; but the AWD system is the same.
Bob
The VDC relies on sensors to detect various vehicle states and whether or not a wheel is actually slipping, so on paper it appears "reactive". The videos of '09 Foresters driving a horribly rutted track show suspended wheels spinning before the other wheels on the ground engage.
Then again, I do not know how far ahead in time the Subaru system "predicts" traction requirements.
Whatever...I'll see how Forester does come winter.
Subaru just doesn't seem to get the reality that they cannot sell cars costing over $30K. $30K+ is lux or near-lux territory, and no Subaru model is in that realm, not by a long shot.
I bet Suzuki will be out of the U.S. market within 3 years because they can barely sell cars at ANY price.
Most expensive Suzuki is the XL7 Limited AWD. With EVERY option and destination charge, the MSRP is $30,198 and, according to carsdirect, you can buy it for $27,115, which is probably on the high side, and it's not even the end of model year sale time.
While I agree $40K for STI, $35K for Legacy and $30K for WRX (all MSRP) are all hard to swallow (and market did balk), those prices are to stay just to keep up with commodity prices and US peso plunge... :sick:
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Bob
LSD, especially a non mechanical-clutch one, is also re-active, it doesn't split the power to the non-slipping side until the other side slips. The viscous ones found in most subies are also more on the slip side than limited side.
-mike
Bob
Yeah I think they have a winner with the new STi, even at it's price. For me and my particular situation, a $35k+ Legacy w/3.6 305hp, slightly larger and a 5EAT just won't work for me. I'm sure they'll sell a bunch but when I can get the G8 for less and don't need the AWD, I gotta save the 5K or so and get that.
-mike
And you know it how? I went to their website and there is no STI-specific sales. Plus - isn't it just couple of months since release? I know one thing - my local Tampa dealer lists 13 units and that's a lot - for comparison, they have 10 Foresters, including '08, and 13 Outbacks. Perhaps there was a surge in supply, or something else, but makes me wonder...
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I've heard it from people who have access to that info. WRX sales are way down, but STI sales are HOT.
Bob
-mike
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Rumor has it that this will be addressed, probably by this time next year, with an early release of the 2010 model. I expect a number of styling and performance-enhancing upgrades.
Bob
STI is such a niche vehicle, that it doesn't matter how many they sell. The volume would still be miniscule compared to the overall brand.
Plus, after the first few months of new model intro are over, the STI sales will cool also. I think the better than expected STI sales are due to all the enthusiasts who have been waiting impatiently. But we all know that these folks are few and far between.
There's no reason, as far as I can see, that top trim levels of the all-new 2010 Legacy can't sell in the mid $30K or higher range too; and those will be higher volume vehicles.
Bob
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I didn't say it was impossible. I said that $30K+ is NOT Subaru's price realm. Most Subarus actually sell in the $20-25K range. If the new Legacy will push that average up significantly, it will not sell well at all. Just look at the Tribeca - Subaru is trying to sell a $27K vehicle for $37K - not happening - sales are dismal!
Competition in the mid-size family sedan market is fierce, with average prices being in the $20-25K range, and Legacy is such a small player that it cannot command a higher price - it has to be on par with all the other players.
While the Legacy does have one ace in the deck - AWD, it falls short on interior room, and, more importantly, fuel efficiency, within its segment. With the economy about to go ka-boom, and gas prices going up 5 cents every day, asking $30K for a Legacy is absurd.
You should say "moderately optioned". Perhaps top of the line is fine at (slighlty) above $30K, just not a volume trim. If they come up with 25K MSRP for 2.5i, 30K for 2.5i Ltd, they will be in trouble.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
When I walked onto the sales floor, there was the new 09 Forester. These hadn't been expected yet but had just arrived 3 days ago. I actually like the new look although still a victim of convergant design - still says Forester, but shows some newer less boxy styling. The cliche "it looks better in person" really does hold here. Seems every neweer gen. SUV/CUV has this "underbite" issue with the front bumper styling. I'm assuming it's to do with pedestrian or low- speed impact standard. I found the F does a better job of this than the others. The interior feels cavernous and the visibility is first rate. I had to take it for a test drive and was overall impressed with it's refinement but disappointed with the reduced feedback and softer suspension c/w the older model. Nevertheless, I'm sure Sandra would really like it. Plus, the new pricing is killer with the Limited $3k less than last year. This is a complete reversal from last time we shopped with the F now much cheaper than a comparably equipped CR-V. Just hope the lack of back-up camera doesn't sour Sandra on it. Months ago I dismissed others' complaints about a lack of Nav/cam but now have to agree that Subaru is making a big mistake not offering this through more of the line. My wife illustrates the point perfectly. She is now firm that any future vehicle she gets must have it and she doesn't like add on aftermarket products. This could even be a dealer installed option. They already have the product, let consumers get it. I can't believe Im saying this, but it may cost them a sale here.
Tiguan? VW is adding free scheduled service for 3 years. I guess we'll see. They look very small to me, so I'm not sure I'd even consider one.
The $40k Sienna is a bit of a myth.
First off, only 10% of Sienna production is the Limited model. A tiny fraction of that is the AWD Limited. So maybe 2-3% of them are $40k and up.
The other thing is the Sienna is the only minivan to even offer AWD. You gotta pay to play. At that price you also get HIDs, laser adaptive cruise control, power folding 3rd row seats, power doors, power tailgate, NAV, DVD player, and I think it includes a condo in Puerto Rico too.
Any how, you get the point. They are loaded to the gills.
You can get an XLE with leather, DVD, and Navigation for $33 grand, street price. The $40k thing is a bit of a stretch.
Pretty incredible if you think about it.
He sells tons of Impreza 2.5i models.
He sells tons of Impreza 2.5i models.
So - after all of us complaining about WRX being undercooked, underwhelming and heading south in sales, were right! Say it, juice, Mike - say it
Anybody with little brains (or just not blindly involved) could see the emperor was naked. The kool-aid protagonists really tried to convince us otherwise, but the market has spoken - a few of months in and the model turned cold. WRX, stuck half way between 2.5i and STI is the worst deal of them - I dare to say, worst of the entire Subaru lineup. And even thousand bucks cashback after just a few months is not going to fix it. Only real tweaks - and not power (easy). It's all about packaging and styling, both outside and inside. Give the STI-like flares, ditch clear lights, put some color on the dash, put in Leggy GT instrument cluster and get the mainstream convenience/lux options (within reason) in and you can then charge the original sticker or more.
And again - it's not that WRX is terrible of anything like that. It's just simply not enough to fend off the stiff competition in wider but relatively small and crowded (for its size) "quick/premium compact below $30K" category. The damage has been done (lost time and sales probably cannot be recaptured), but the trim can be salvaged - just a few tweaks - just quick, don't wait. And put real and honest effort this time, would you Subie
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Yes, the WRX has lost its mojo. It needs to be closer to the STI both visually and inspirationally.
Having said that, the new '08 WRX is a better car in just about every way than my '06 model. It's better in that it's roomier, more comfortable, more quiet, more refined, looks better in 5-door format than my wagon, and many of the subtle details are better worked out.
What disappoints me most about the WRX, as it stands, is there is no moonroof option, it has narrower tires than mine and the "tossability" as aspect is down a notch. I also wish that they had upgraded the performance aspect, as in more power and more gears. Yeah, the styling is a bit bland, but that's not a deal killer for me.
I've driven a number of new WRXs. No, it's not quite as much fun as mine, but it is more enjoyable to drive on a daily basis.
Subaru is well aware of the problem and the error of their ways. Fixes are in the works. Yeah, it should have been right coming out of the starting gate, but this is Subaru. They rarely get it right first time out...
Bob
As much as I like the STI (I've driven 2 new '08s), those MIA items are deal killers for me. I'm sure they're coming—but they should have been available from the very start of production.
Bob
It probably pertains to their entire lineup (every model has some significant unforable comparisons), but WRX has probably the worst relative starting position. They managed to alienate the enthusiasts and not gain the mainstream yet (for reasons we already discussed many times). If they don't tweak this model fast (one way or another), they will kill it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
On the side note, those sub-300 hp-FWD alignments on family sedans make very little sense, yet they're marketed to people like it's some kind of technological wonders. HP is easy and cheap. Suspensions are not. I see those abominations going awaym perhaps even not in so distant future, as did those monster V8s from sixties went away after first oil shock. You see it again and again - trends grow beyond reasonable limits, peak and then implode. Remember Ford Excursion? When I saw it rolling on a narrow street downtown Charleston, I knew the thing was over - and it was soon after that. Same fate is coming to those 300hp-FWD atrocities - and it will happen before anyone realizes. Gas prices will take car of it.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Question is, are combined sales (STI and WRX) lower than they were in 2007.
I dunno, but I'd love to know if anyone has the detailed break-downs by model.
How about if they don't step up and go to competition? Would they not mind that, too? Big difference between paying $25K and $35K - more people would rather take a walk than get pushed around. I know I don't take this kind of extorsion attempt well :P
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Now as you all know I'm one of, if not the biggest Subie fan, but I just feel that the power in the 2010 Legacy and probably the size too, will be too little, too late for me.
-mike
You really think a 5EAT will be the best tranny offered? If the rumored DSG for the STI is due by then, I thought maybe top-of-the-line Legacy may have it as well.