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Comments
That's not really what I said. I searched. I wrote this:
"The incentives are only a sign that Subaru set pricing too high. "
That clearly states that they made a mistake with pricing being too high to begin with. I said nothing about it being brilliant, in fact I pointed out their mistake. I also pointed out they were smarter with Forester pricing. You missed my entire point.
In the same thread, though...
aakay wrote: "lukewarm reaction the new 08 Imprezas have had till date".
At a minimum he should have wrote "WRX (non-STI)" instead of Impreza. Up 16%, up 18%, and up 24% are not lukewarm, sorry. Up every month since intro AFAIK. I even pointed out the first 3 months it was on sale they had increases every month.
aaykay also wrote: "When Mitsubishi introduced a game-changer with the Lancer EVO/Ralliart, Subaru introduced a wet dishrag"
Do you know that the Forester and Impreza alone outsold all of Mitsubishi in April? Forester 5339, Impreza 4010, Mitsubishi (all) just 8878. Lancer only sold 2598, way behind Impreza.
Bad month for the Lancer? No, a great month actually. It was the Lancer's best sales total in 7 months.
Impreza lukewarm, Lancer a game changer? Huh? :confuse:
Hello? McFly?
More like Lancer is dead in the water. Mitsubishi may not even survive.
Impreza sales - see above.
EVO sold only 364. Insignificant. I'm sure the STI killed it. Badly.
estreka wrote: "The fact that Impreza sales are up at the onset of a new model year is an expectation, not an overachievement"
That's what I was referring to, and you didn't write it, but I'm sure that's what you were thinking.
Here we are, more than a year after launch, and sales are still strong. They're making a profit for the past 2 years. The Forester is a smash hit. Did you know I had to factory order one because I could not find a blue LL Bean less than 4 hours away?
How much you want to bet Mitsubishi is not around for 10 years to honor that powertrain warranty (which doesn't apply to the EVO anyway)?
Actually aaykay did call it a "wet dishrag". Worse, he was comparing it to the Lancer, which has been a sales tragedy compared to the Impreza. Even the EVO.
Yes, the incentives are a concern and they erode profits and residuals. Subaru fixed that for the Forester intro, so it seems like they learned a lesson from their mistakes.
I don't recall ever thinking that was "brilliant", though. In fact I've even called for Scion-style low set no-haggle prices, so my thinking tends toward the opposite direction vs. the high WRX initial pricing.
WRX, OK, qualify it, though, Impreza WRX, not all Imprezas.
We need to see a sales break down.
They sold 4010 Imprezas in April. Even if WRX sales are down as a % of the total, it's still possible that sales are flat, even up slightly.
Long-term, I recall the Forester sold about 4500 units per month while the Impreza only sold 1/3rd that amount. The gap has been closing but the new model continues to close that gap.
So it's very hard for me to see a number over 4k and call it a flop.
Actually, I remember him saying (writing) 2.5i was a good deal - as late as his first message in our renewed discussion. I really remember only one fellow complaining about 2.5i as too slow (he hated the rental he got calling). I have driven Impreza 2.5i as late as last week (loaner) and it was fine to me so I don't know what that guy was talking about. My issue with it was no temperature gage in the cluster. That's just plain cheapskate. Other than that, the car felt fine for what it was - inexpensive transportation with AWD, nothing more. WRX has always aspired to be more, and while it is, it's nowhere near its 27K sticker (Premium trim) - and that's all I'm saying.
Sorry Juice to put you up on the board like that. While I did mean to call your name as example, I didn't really mean to get personal. It was all about "business" to me (business being honest disagreement about WRX). I would love to be so dedicated to the brand as you are.
I just feel being pushed away with each new product iteration and sometimes take it on this board as it is frustrating to me that I may end up having to spend thousands more on new car than I want to, especially that my favorite less expensive company has all ingredients - just refuses to put them up on sale.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Not everyone got what they wanted, and aaykay is entitled to his opinion if he thinks the WRX' suspension is too soft or whatever. I'd suggest he chose a model that hasn't bombed badly to compare with, though. :P
However, again, look at sales, more people are buying Subarus. The strategy worked in the long-term. They moved away from boy-racer, and towards a more refined mainstream. Some will miss it, but they more than offset those losses with new sales. Big time.
Apology accepted, and yes we should discuss the business. I think I got riled up when I feel I was misquoted. I feel very strongly that they should set initial pricing as low as possible, like they did with the Forester (base model down $1200).
Check it out - on Fitzmall.com, a 2008 LL Bean model starts at $24,064 after incentives. $24,654 for a new 2009 with no incentives. So prices are up ~$600 or so, a reasonable increase, and no incentives are needed.
Guess what? I ordered a 2009. They priced it right, consumers will come. Even before incentives appear. Lesson learned.
Any how, I've been suggesting to Subaru that they do this all along. I'd even go one step further and have a Scion-like one price deal, no-haggle, right on the window.
The same dealer's cheapest WRX is $22,773. Imagine if Subaru just set a Scion-like one-price at $22,995. Instead of $27k, everyone would be raving about how it only costs $23k. Much better.
Still, though, that price is a good $2300 more than the low point of the previous model.
For you, what about the new affordable coupe they're working on with Toyota? Should be under $20 grand.
That does not make the previous model a dud, as the automotive press loves to make it. The STI was perfectly acceptable until the revised EVO came along and now the auto press is howling how bad the STI is. The STI is __not__ bad, but what it is being compared to has changed and in some ways offers "better" capabilities.
If Nissan brought out a GT-R with 700 HP tomorrow, the automotive press and enthusiasts would all howl about how "bad" the current model has become. :confuse:
I seriously doubt it's outselling the STI.
The new coupe? All depends. I bet it will end up being Toyota for $19.8K plus delivery on config without cruise control and side airbags. Subaru will sell it for $25K with cruise control and bags (and AWD), there will be premium pkg for 2 grand, just like WRX, but you'll not get leather and stuff again
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Indeed! Buyers simply wait for the incentives to appear.
Subaru successfully broke that with the Forester, though.
The base (X) model had a $2000 incentive. They just lowered the sticker by $1200. So it's an $800 increase, which was palatable. The vehicle is better overall so sales are through the roof.
The high-end models had a $1000 incentive and got price drops of around $700-800. So very small increases, effectively. They did cut a little bit of content, but then they added other stuff that offsets that somewhat. Still, a small increase that was easily accepted by customers. The LL Bean is in highest demand.
I seriously could not find a blue or silver LL Bean in the entire Mid-Alantic. Closest one was in NJ almost 4 hours away!
I don't think the affordable coupe will be $25k. $22k perhaps, with AWD, if that's even standard. Heck, if it's even available!
Now of course, if Toyota truly does strip their base model as they are wont to do, I could see maybe a $3K separation between the two brands, as no Subaru should be as stripped as most base Toyotas.
And Subaru: factory moonroofs are desirable, lots of people want them, start building this in as an option on as many models as possible!!!
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's a mute point, the new legacy which will be here in less than a year will be 5-series, A6 sized, so that's the class that needs to have it's eye on, mid-larger sized cars and there just aren't any sport wagons in that size range at all. Period. Sans the 535IX. Obviously all the other companies did their research and found that a hopped up mid-sized wagon isn't what the consumer wants.
-mike
2018 430i Gran Coupe
So AWD is not an option, which is kind of bad, as they lose their "AWD standard" line, at least initially, but look at the marketing part. No Toyotas here - THAT is interesting. I think it's a mistake for Toyota, but as Subaru partisan I don't mind. Or should I? Perhaps dumbed and cheapened Toyota here version would actually help Subaru? Look at Matrix/Vibe. Pontiac would probably sell quarter of them if not for Matrix - or would they?
2018 430i Gran Coupe
We don't know that yet.
I will say this though: If AWD is not available, this will be the first Subaru in a long, long time that I will have zero interest in—and no, don't expect to see me doing a dealer test drive of it.
Bob
We don't know that yet.
We kind of do. Look here:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=126521
2018 430i Gran Coupe
In any event, I've heard reports from Subie insiders that the AWD issue had not been decided. Now that was a few weeks ago, so maybe that has changed?
Bob
If the car is THAT far along in development, why not release it this fall?
What a bunch of junk! I WOULD, however, be happy if Subaru could offer it with all the base equipment of the Impreza premium for $19,995 in 2011. Methinks that price will rise in the next three years though.
I will also echo that Toyota is making a big mistake in not offering its own version in America, and I bet they will come to agree with me on that score before the actual launch. I expect to see Toyota and Subaru versions here, and if so I bet the Subaru will be exclusively AWD. I know they keep saying "no no NO!" to that type of speculation, but you just wait and see....
;-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Basically, I have always stated that the new Impreza (2.5i not WRX) is a good value, since it lost absolutely nothing when compared to the prior model, while it gained several things like Side airbags and VDC, along with price containment, which makes it a GREAT value for what it provides. The sedan is way more commodious than the prior version and also when compared to other products in the marketplace (with or without AWD).
The WRX is a "wet dishrag" to use my prior comment, which was basically what Edmunds stated in their review of the Lancer Ralliart. All the things the WRX lost over the prior model, have already been listed and I don't want to re-hash.
Note that the several thousands of dollars of premium that the WRX commands over the 2.5i Impreza, makes it truly a high margin product for the manufacturer. You need to sell a significant number of high margin products, along with a reasonable mix of lower margin products like the 2.5i models, to meet your profit plan. I think Subaru has missed the "high margin" component of their Impreza sales mix, pretty drastically, due to the low demand of the WRX model. The STI volumes are very low to make up for this shortfall, which places a larger burden on the other vehicles in their lineup, to catchup.
Even better, there are then not one single competitor to a Legacy Wagon, there is a reason why there are none, there is no market for it unfortunately.
As for "equipment" you pay for all that stuff. I'm currently having a similar discussion in the G8 group, the BMerfiles, or those who blindly support the badge (I've driven a lot on track, and they are ok, but don't impress me that much for the $$$) They say the same thing, that the G8 skimps on equipment (no GPS, no MT, etc), however, you don't get nothing for nothing. If as you put it, the Legacy were to come out and be as good with the same equipment, for 2/3 the price, why would Subaru undercut themselves like that?
-mike
Same is with G8 - it may be just a fine car, but if it doesn't have "the stuff", it can't be considered competition for those guys. All it can hope to be is a consolation for somebody who has to settle for less. That is not competition, that is consolation.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
* how, then, has FHI made a profit the past 2 years, after a long string of losses, with this supposedly less profitable lineup? Your theory implies they'd be bleeding all sorts of red ink.
* you're still speculating about WRX sales, we don't have the hard numbers.
You called the Lancer a game-changer yet it's a wall flower sitting in dealers selling at half the pace of the "wet dishrag" Impreza.
Mitsu may as well give up.
Some how the bean counters won and the refinments they've made have paid off on the bottom line. Enthusiasts don't have to like it, but the accountants are laughing all the way to the bank.
As for numbers, Fuji's sales were up 1.5% for FY2008 but income was down 4% and net income was down by over 40%. Again, we have no idea how poorly or hwo well each division is doing but those numbers don't give me the warm fuzzies.
I can say FHI's profits for the past 2 years means SoA is doing well.
And that's why you're in IT. A 40% drop in income over the past year is nothing to brag about!!
Lots more data here:
http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/ir/finance/data.html
We all want a Ferrari, or a Lambo as our "ultimate" sports car so the same could be said about folks buying a Porsche GT3, the Porsche is a consolation prize since they can't afford the Ferrari or Lambo.
The G8 just beat the upcoming maxima in a MT comparo for a $30k sedan. Basically they said, if you had $30k to spend in your pocket which sedan would you get. Suprisingly even w/o offering navi, HIDs, etc. the G8 won.
So there is no reason why the upcoming Legacy can't be a poor man's BMW 5 series or A6 series car or subsitute in other AWD mid/large sedans.
-mike
In order one product to be in other product's competition, the potential buyer has to have realistic means to acquire both products. G8 and Maxima - absolutely, they are. Similar size, price, performance. Legacy vs. 530 - I hate to give language lessons to a native speaker (being non-native myself), but the word is "substitute", not "competition".
2018 430i Gran Coupe
http://blogs.edmunds.com/Straightline/103
The future for gearheads—if this goes through—looks pretty bleak regardless of what brand you drive.
Bob
Most mid-size cars would do perfectly fine with a small V6 (max 200-225HP).
Compacts - 160-190HP.
Sub-compacts - 120-150HP.
Large cars - 250-275HP.
Minivans - 230-260HP.
Small SUV's - 175-225HP
Midsize SUV's - 230-270HP
Large SUV's - these should really be for special needs or commercial use only and not sold to general public without a special permit.
With the exception of niche sports/performance cars, manufacturers should target 0-60 times of 7-9 seconds for their mainstream vehicles. This way, those CAFE numbers will not be so difficult to meet.
Take the Outback for example. Why does Subaru give you a choice of a lethargic 2.5 NA or a peaky inefficient 2.5 Turbo? Why not just have one engine, a 2.8 NA H6 for example with around 210HP? That engine would be perfect for the vehicle and save Subaru millions by not having to build and certify so many different powertrain variations.
There should be a flat across the board rating for passenger vehicles which is the same for every manufacturer. If people want bigger cars, let them pony up the CAFE penalty.
OH, and insert my usual "HP versus gas mileage" rant here:....
What makes you think I had anything to do with this?
Bob
The aussies (I used to live in Australia for a time) were also bemused by and often laughed at USA policies.
Wrt the HP race, there will be a part of the auto market for which that matters over all else. Whether that part's big enough to allow ridiculously overpowered cars (for anything but a racetrack, that is) to continue, I've no clue.
How would Edmunds staffers feel if the "Hoon-O-Mobiles" :confuse: were to go away?
Am I the only one who finds it rather unfair/uncompetitive that Subaru has to meet a higher target than Toyota or GM??
Am I the only one that finds it rather unffair/uncompetitive that Porsche, Lotus and Suzuki have to meet a higher target than Subaru??
My understanding is that the targets are based on what the manufacturers have told NHTSA what they plan on building in the next 5 years. The biggest factor I see is the "footprint" of the vehicle. Little cars with powerful/less efficient engines will get hit the hardest.
Net income is actually better than it was 2 years ago, and 3 years ago.
As for net income, it's about flat compared to 3 years ago yet sales are up about 7%. Steadily increasing sales but flat income typically isn't what a company aims for. Sales are nice but profit are better.
I'm done!!
In order one product to be in other product's competition, the potential buyer has to have realistic means to acquire both products. G8 and Maxima - absolutely, they are. Similar size, price, performance. Legacy vs. 530 - I hate to give language lessons to a native speaker (being non-native myself), but the word is "substitute", not "competition".
Well comparing a car with AWD v. non-awd just isn't a comparison to me. Same goes for size, you can't compare a large sedan to a tiny little one cause the carrying capacity is so off.
It would be like me saying my Armada kicks the crap out of a Tribecca, cause I can tow 9100lbs and seat 7 adults, while the Tribecca can't.
A 530ix or 535ix would be a comparison to the new upcoming legacy, just like the A6 will be. They have AWD and are similarly sized.
As for getting out of manhattan? I'm up at pocono raceway right now! And I work a blue collar job at the utlity company, so not sure where you are getting your info
-mike
The reason Toyota and Honda are less hard hit by the new CAFE law is that they already do this - they are the class fuel economy leaders among subcompact and compact cars, and at or above average for all their cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The US is their #2 market, actually.
No wonder JDM cars get all the good stuff. :sick:
Their engines are really pretty old and they need direct injection applied to their engines. Rumor has it that a new-generation of boxer engines are about to be introduced. Also, early reports I've heard is that the upcoming CVT is showing big gains in fuel mileage.
I expect that when this new technology comes on line, in a year or so, that Subarus will show some major improvements in fuel mileage.
Bob
So perhaps it's a cost issue, as well.
As for DI, I have noted with interest that GM has begun offering its DI 3.6 in non-luxury models now, beginning with the Aura I believe, and now to include the G8 (and Malibu? I don't know).
On the Toyota side, while the DI 3.5 has until now been exclusively Lexus, I am pretty sure I read someplace that the '09 Avalon will get it, and I am sure the other models with the 3.5 will follow fairly closely behind, including Sienna (assuming Sienna survives past the next update), RAV, and Camry.
I think that Subaru will have cost issues with incorporating DI across the line, but I do think they could substantially improve their fuel efficiency if they did so. That, and get a 5- or 6-speed automatic out there ASAP. And gear the non-turbo manuals for gas savings more and speed less.
Imagine if they gave the JDM 2.0 DI (does it already have DI?) and made it the standard base engine for Impreza/Forester/Outback. That and a 300-pound weight reduction for those models would do wonders for fuel economy, I bet.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)