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Comments
Sienna should survive because even as the minivan segment shrinks, there are fewer competitors fighting for that piece of the pie.
CVT is coming, I just hope they tune theirs more like Nissan's and less like Mitsubishi's. The feel is quite different.
A smaller base engine makes sense, especially for the Forester X and the base Impreza models.
I don't think the Forester will get any lighter because it's already one of the lightest in its class now.
Since current Subaru Auto trans guts are Nissan sourced, I would presume the CVT will also be Nissan.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=22500695&postcount=224
One image shows the Exiga next to a new Forester—and it looks SMALL!
Bob
I'd like to see one in person, but we may not get the chance.
Hopefully they at least show it at Auto Shows to gauge interest.
A bit smaller than the concept Exiga: 186.6 x 68.5 x 64.2" (Legacy wagon 184.3 x 68.1 x 57.9").
Bob
Though...it is bigger than the Rondo: 179.0" x 71.7" x 65.0"
So the Exiga is nearly 7" longer, but 3" more narrow, and almost an inch shorter. It would be a squeeze for 3 across, I think. No better than the Legacy.
Let's also compare to the Mazda5: 181.5" x 69.1" x 64.2"
Exiga is 5" longer, slightly less in total width, and the same height.
Wheelbase is not that long, so basically it's Mazda5-sized with longer overhangs.
Leg room could be better than both Rondo and Mazda5, but that's about it.
The pics made it look a lot bigger, so that's odd. They can do all kinds of tricks to make interior photos appear bigger, though, in fact Kia used that trick for the Rondo. Check this out:
Makes the 3rd row look useable. They moved the front row way forward, and the 2nd row forward, to make it look like the 3rd row has legroom. In actuality the 3rd row touches the 2nd row when that 2nd row is all the way back, so there is no room for legs at all.
Any how, Exiga is a very compact vanlet.
Forester is up a whopping 66%. :surprise:
Impreza is up yet again, and up 15% for the year. :shades:
Note that the 5 door is way up, and the sedan is down slightly. People like the hatch, more so then they liked the wagon bodystyle.
Shooting w/a 'normal' focal length lens similar to how our eyes see would yield a flatter, less spacious look.
http://www.autoblog.com/2008/06/04/subaru-impreza-coupe-coming-in-2010/
Still, Escape sales were down, so not all small crossovers did well.
I gotta be honest, I don't think it will end up looking like that at all.
Not only did they make it look like the Impreza, but the STI model specifically. There's no way they could make it look like that and keep the prices as low as projected.
I see by your name you're an MST3K fan. :shades:
But the article suggests there will be a RWD NA coupe and an AWD turbo coupe. One will be cheap, the other likely not so much. This is opposed to the earlier report I read, which did not confirm the AWD turbo coupe.
I hope they come in short sequence (less than a year from each other) because I'm mostly excitied about the AWD turbo version. Renderings aside, I think its a good idea to go this route as a company.
I see by your name you're an MST3K fan
It was either that or ThickMcRunFast
Personally? I'm not in the market for this vehicle, but would only be interested in an AWD version. Small, cheap, fun, AWD. That'd be the winning combo for me.
(I could never get over Joel being replaced by Mike, who (for me) was funny but just not as likeable. The skits seemed to get more bizarre with time. I watched quite a few episodes, but it's my best bud who is/was really into the show.)
The buyers of the economy brands, when I look on a lot of forums, complain about not being able to disengage the AWD so they could get another 1/10th of an mpg. I don't think the Impreza sedan/wagon will ever grow past its current niche market. And since they aren't willing to go FWD (thank God), they should keep whatever small niche of economy AWD buyers they can hold on to, and also expand into the sport-luxury market, where AWD is welcome and RWD is praised.
I think Subaru has tremendous room to grow in the sport-luxury segment. A top-of-the-line Legacy has handling and comfort no less impressive than a base 328xi for the same price. None of its FWD Nissan, Honda, Toyota, Ford, Chevy, Cerberus competitors can say that.
The Tribeca has one of the nicest interiors on the market, and the Forester has basically become a 90% Tribeca.
The Exiga's theme seems to be a luxury 7-pass wagon. That makes sense since the Outback 3.0R is a semi-luxurious 5-pass wagon, and the former might replace the latter (in the US? don't know).
So we have:
Sport Coupe
Luxury Sedan
Luxury Wagon
5-pass SUV
7-pass SUV
How does this stack up to:
Z4
3-series sedan
5-series wagon
X3
X5
I think they stack up decently. Not quite as presigious as their BMW counterparts, but then they don't cost as much either.
That might also explain a massive 3.7L turbo H-6 in development. They are obviously not prioritizing the gas mileage that the economy brands focus on. Sport-luxury buyers will sacrifice a little coin at the pump for performance. 450hp is more than the M3 or RS4 sedan get, so you can see what they are targeting.
Anyway, just my $.02.
I am still betting that the Subaru version will not be introduced until AWD is at least optional and available.....and maybe standard. Unfortunately, if the only model available from Subaru is a turbo AWD version with gas-guzzling fuel economy like the current STi, then my interest will end, or at least switch back to Toyota. :-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Tribeca and Legacy have upscale touches, but the Forester is pretty par for its class, and that's just fine with me.
Keep prices down and spend the money on powertrain improvements in the future.
I don't need a soft-touch dash. Give me more HP/torque/MPG.
Sport Coupe
Luxury Sedan
Luxury Wagon
5-pass SUV
7-pass SUV
How does this stack up to:
Z4
3-series sedan
5-series wagon
X3
X5
Subaru doesn't have any luxury or near-luxury upscale models. Even the Tribeca flagship doesn't have one ounce of real wood in it. The interiors are not bad, but they are quite cheap in both looks and tactile feel. Noisy too, compared to the luxury brands. And cost-cutting is evident in almost every non-essential part.
CR-V, Forester, and Rogue are hot, basically.
You're kidding right? I think BMW interiors look absolutely awful with that strange half-bathtub dash. The Spec-B seats are just as nice as the leatherette you get in a base Bimmer.
Not quite as presigious as their BMW counterparts, but then they don't cost as much either.
And its sport-luxury. They aren't soft, rich old-man vehicles. The Spec-B is a significantly better buy than a 328xi for roughly the same money. It'll outrun it under any circumstances easily, plus there isn't anything that special that the 328xi offers me.
I explained it quite clearly. Subaru isn't quite economy brand, and they won't really be able to grow there so long as they don't offer FWD. More the better IMO. Too many people think that AWD saps massive amounts of fuel. Actually if you measure cars of similar power and weight to the Impreza and WRX, you'll find the Mazda 3 and Mazdaspeed 3 aren't much better. But its a negative stereotype that I don't think Suby will be able to shake during this fuel crisis.
But matching BMW in performance, but slightly below them in useless gadgets at a lower cost? Works for me.
If they brought the 300hp Legacy STI to the states, I'd say the same of the 335i, not worth the $$$. For now its quite impressive.
A 450hp Legacy? M3 watch out. Sorry, but for 75% of the price, you can keep your real wood for most of these models.
The Forester XT is a bit of a conundrum though, lacking the manual it used to come with. The automatic only prevents it from being nearly as sporty as the outgoing model.
One thing I didn't consider is maybe the 1-series is where the Impreza coupe ought to be competing, not the Z4 because that's a 2-seater.
Again, this is only a prediction of where they are headed. They're not there yet and they won't get there overnight. The only way you can come back and say I was wrong is in 2012 when their full lineup-change is complete.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
I'm just saying they are becoming a little more well-appointed than say, Mitsubishi, Nissan, Toyota, Honda. Though not quite so much as BMW, Acura, Audi, Lexus, Infiniti.
They span the gap between affordable and nice, kinda like VW. To be honest, I think Hyundai is trying for that segment as well. They are letting Kia tackle the entry-level brands and shooting for mid-level sport luxury.
And if they go mid-range upscale, they can still sell STI versions of anything. They'll never lose the hardcore crowd. Even versions without carpets and power windows to save weight. BMW has had a few of those.
Nobody else has noticed that they are already getting more expensive on the top end? How much does an STI with sat-nav and leather cost? Nearly $40K by the time you hit the road with it.
All I'm saying Subie is already between in terms of pricing, but not quite in terms of "stuff" (or lets just say it's too close to economy brands). They need to move up it terms of standard equipment to remain relevant and competitive there and break loose from deadly Camcord competition.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Its going to take a while to shake of the image of utilitarian, boxy, off-roaders. And I don't think that describes their mid-size line at all. SOA marketing is a work in progress.
The Infiniti EX is even smaller, though. I swear a Honda Fit is roomier.
Any how, Acura as a whole isn't doing as well as Honda, so I'm not sure Subaru should move in that direction.
What they're doing currently is working, look at sales. If anything, don't change course.
Cars are less boxy. Interiors are nicer. Sales are up. Yes, keep doing it. But grow in the direction that shows the most promise. The Exiga and Impreza coupe are on their way now. That is business as usual. Anything else would be changing course now. They obviously think this is the way to grow. I happen to agree.
By becoming a little more civilized, it has the hardcore fans a little peeved, but its still brings in the money.
All the Luxury brands except Jaguar (new model) and Mercedes (diesel option?) are down. People are holding their wallets tighter, but still want nice cars. If they'd just market their mid-size better... or at all... I think Dino has a point. Cheaper yet better, and I think Suby could sell luxury. I think Hyundai is going to make a killing with the market the way it is. Can't afford Euro/Japanese luxury? Try Korean. Good quality, low price. Plus better marketing.
I explained it quite clearly. Subaru isn't quite economy brand, and they won't really be able to grow there so long as they don't offer FWD. More the better IMO. Too many people think that AWD saps massive amounts of fuel. Actually if you measure cars of similar power and weight to the Impreza and WRX, you'll find the Mazda 3 and Mazdaspeed 3 aren't much better. But its a negative stereotype that I don't think Suby will be able to shake during this fuel crisis.
Subaru can't compete with the luxury brands. Not with its current offerings. It took the likes of Lexus to unseat the Germans from their throne. And Lexus did it by trouncing them with exceptional design, build quality, attention to detail, and customer service, not by just trying to measure up.
A luxo-brand buyer will usually not even look at Subaru unless the Subaru vehicle being compared totally blows the luxo-brand "equivalent" away, not tries to mimick it. And we all know that Subaru simply doesn't have any vehicles up to that task. Subarus appeal to consumers looking for "practical", not "luxury".
Hyundai rolled out the Azera - tried to compete with luxury brands. The only thing they came close to was to compete with Buick, and even in that segment it turned into a flop.
And I agree that Subaru has a negative stereotype as utilitarian that they are trying to shed.
Subaru can't compete with the luxury brands. Not with its current offerings.
If you didn't notice, you're in the FUTURE MODELS forum, and we're talking about a minimum of 3 upcoming models here.
What throne? There's no imaginary throne. Lexus competes, it didn't unseat anything in a political coup d'etat. Hyundia will compete in this segment, with a RWD 350hp sedan. Hyundai has improved themselves drastically in attention to detail, exceptional design, and customer service.
And Subaru has 1 model that isn't just equal to, but better than the base 3-series. What they lack is indeed the 'brand image' of luxury. They have the equipment.
The Mazdaspeed3 gets nearly identical mileage to the Legacy GT, despite being 200lbs lighter.
I think most people that think AWD costs them a ton of fuel are basing it on the old 4-by-4s with heavy transfer cases. Its a stigma people can't forget, like all diesels being dirty.
Most cars' mpgs are based on how much torque you are producing and finding the right gearing for said cars' weight.
How can they do this and still profit?
Remember, you're already starting with the extra cost of AWD. A lot of people don't factor that in. Audi gets $2 grand extra for Quattro.
It's on every Subaru, so that's a cost handicap.
I don't think they can do both AWD and luxury and still come in priced below the competition.
Luxury costs money. It also adds weight and complexity. AWD does the same. Can Subaru compete doubling up these handicaps?
I can see them streamlining some Toyota stuff on Subaru, for instance HVAC, stereo, entertainment, GPS, etc. Offer some of the stuff from Lexus, perhaps. Reduce costs via economies of scale.
This is sport-luxury, it doesn't add any weight. Just make the seats comfortable, get a nice sat-nav, some fine-touch dashes, keep the AWD and call it a day.
Oh wait, that already describes the Legacy, which comes in at 3300lbs.
And better to me means that the LGT/Spec-B can run rings around the TL and 328xi while still being almost as comfortable. Which it is. For less!
The new Impreza, despite being more mature according to many, weighs exactly the same as the old one.
I'm not suggesting any extra handicaps, its just business as usual in the direction they are already headed. They just need to market it that way.
IMO, the Legacy is the best horse in the Subaru stable (could you tell?) and they sold less than 1/3 as many as the Forester, Outback and Impreza. Its not an economy car. They are marketing it to the wrong people. The technical work is done.
I'm looking at the Forester, because I just ordered one and its their hottest selling model right now.
The headliner is a very basic design - cardboard with peach fuzz texture. It has thin carpets, par for the class, but still. All the plastics have a nice texture and look rich but they are all hard. No power passenger seat in any model. No auto up windows, no memory seats, no HIDs, no LED taillights, no fancy transmissions.
Yet right now it's Subaru's most successful model by a long shot.
Why? Because they got all the basics right, and kept prices down.
For the most part, I agree with you, I just cringe a little when people say "add luxury". I guess it depends on what you mean by that.
Adding VDC was a great idea, much needed. Side-curtain air bags, too. They can't talk about safety in their ads and not include those. Fewer people will complain about wind noise now that they have window frames, and the rear suspension isolates the ride a bit better, too.
I just think they have to be careful about what the additions cost, is all.
Look at TRD - you can get a full blown supercharger kit, and even have it dealer installed. Warranty and all.
Meanwhile, SPT is peddline shift knobs with no warranty. Pathetic.
They could sell accessories a-la-carte and really ramp up the offerings - things like HID kits, STI suspension bits, rims, even chips for the powertrain. Keep all the cosmetic stuff they sell now, but expand the offerings for the people craving a-la-carte upgrades.
You want HIDs on an Impreza 2.5i? Ain't ever gonna happen - not direct from Subaru. But selling thru SPT could.
Imagine SPT selling a whole line of that sort of stuff.
Oh I can understand that. I don't think any car needs to be as well appointed as a spa. With a sealskin covered dash and mahogany gas pedal.
My 'rents drive a 2003 Audi A6, and I have a 2006 Legacy GT Limited. Noticeable differences from the ride comfort and interior quality? Negligable. A blindfolded person would be capable of mistaking one for the other.
Yet the LGT is lighter, extremely agile and fast. The Outback vs. Audi Allroad is another example of Subaru getting the exact same level of comfort, albeit 2 years later.
Subaru can be 2 years behind on luxury, because they always charge less, even for the boosted models.
I think the Exiga is just going to be more of the same of this. The Outback still sells like 4x as well as the Legacy in the states, and its a mid-range sport-luxury wagon. As long as it gets decent mpg for a 7-seater, I predict it will do well, if not become the next hottest thing if offered in the US.
And yet, tens of thousands of people buy the A4, 3-series and TSX without even considering the Spec-B or 3.0R. With sunroof, satnav, auto-windows, driver/passenger power 4-way seats, leather... I forget the rest. Any more luxury than that is too much for me. But when do you see Subaru pony up a Spec-B for a TSX or 328 comparo? If it just got some media...
The STI comes with a fair amount of kit as well. And as you say, nobody seems to mind the refinement, because there are a few $40K Suby's leaving the dealerships. Who's have thought that 5 years ago?
Of all the bang/buck brands, Suby and Mitsu treat their enthusiast custsomers like crap.
I wrote a letter to SOA telling them I loved the SPT intake and exhaust for my car, and that they should continue to produce and market their aftermarket branding as much as possible.
Know what they wrote back?
"Please do not modify your car, it may void the warranty."
I was at a loss for words. :confuse:
1. persistence of 4 speed AT even though 5AT w/VTD is available. Actually, dropping VTD from WRX, which is a step backwards.
2. no sunroof/leather on 29K (WRX) and 39K (STI) car upon its introduction
Yes - current Spec-B is excellent product and if it were wagon, I would have already owned it. The problem is in the rest of the lineup - too close to economy to be competitive in terms of price and mileage and too far from luxury in terms of features. If they got lower trims to VW level and upper ones to Acura, they should be allright.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
But you are right, even though they share engine technology it seems there is a noticable schism in the 'luxury' between platforms. Not unlike 'Nissan' in Japan that includes what we know as Infiniti.
I stand half-corrected. Half of the Suby line has moved upscale, the other half has become even more mainstream.
Just order them from any subie dealer, sti headlights plug and play.
-mike
Rumor? True?
Same topic mentioned Forester might get these in 2010.
What I get for buying early....
Bob