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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • jeffmcjeffmc Member Posts: 1,742
    Good info, Elliot. Thanks for sharing. (Seen the "brewhaha" elsewhere. Nothing that wouldn't be out of the bag soon anyway, if it's any consolation.)

    FWIW, I had heard it was Outback's body that would differentiate from Legacy more than current models do. Same Legacy chassis/internals, however. Though Outback may not offer an XT to compare with GT, perhaps only 2.5 H4 & 3.6 H6. I think that Legacy design concept will look better as an Outback than a Legacy. :)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Specs sound good, and more importantly the package updates go even further than the updates for the 2009 Forester, which is a hit.

    This bodes very well for the new Outback and Legacy sales...

    Agree with the comment above about Nissan tuning CVTs well. Mitsu does not, so I hope they do perform like Nissans do.
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    My understanding is the CVT was engineered in-house, like the 4EAT

    Subaru has said the 5EAT is 4EAT JATCO guts reworked by Subaru to add a gear. Unless Subaru is being heavily subsidized (by whom?) in-house CVT development seems very unlikely. I presume even Toyota uses JATCO CVTs...Note that Nissan (JATCOs parent) uses Toyotas hybrid system. You scratch my back; I'll scratch yours.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Subaru buys the 5EAT from an outside supplier. Not so with the 4EAT, or the CVT. The 5EAT is very expensive for Subaru to buy, which is why we don't see it on Foresters or Imprezas. I've gotten this info from someone who is in a position to know.

    Bb
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    I've gotten this info from someone who is in a position to know.

    But the 5EAT story came from Automotive Engineering quite some time ago with official Subaru source. That same article noted the costly mods by Subaru and the increased transmission weight that ensued...I recall 56 pounds.

    For those who do not remember the close relationship of Subaru with Nissan there were hand-me-down Nissan body dies and even a Nissan model with Nissan engine and Subaru AWD and body. That Japan-only wagon model was called a Stagea.

    Where ever manufactured a more expensive, heavier trans would be hard to justify for the lower end Subaru models, but eventually pressure to improve corporate CAFE will mean a CVT.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    I was just doing some reading. Didn't realize that Subie was first in US with a CVT, or that FHI made CVTs for Nissan in the past. With a stronger CVT history, the development of a new one may not be as onerous as I initially thought it would be.
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Didn't realize that Subie was first in US with a CVT, or that FHI made CVTs for Nissan in the past. With a stronger CVT history, the development of a new one may not be as onerous as I initially thought it would be.

    Yes, but those trans were for micro cars. More heavy duty shared CVT designs are already in use at Nissan and Toyota; why would Fugi waste the development money? With shared switches, etc already from Toyota, shared purchasing power for transmissions makes sense. Expect to find lots of shared pieces in the future.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Legacy

    http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2347041&postcount=3482

    Outback

    http://www.legacygt.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2347042&postcount=3483

    I think it's safe to say that US-spec models will be similar—but not identical in terms of package content. Interesting that the cars now get an auto-up driver's window (finally!) and a rear camera comes with NAVI.

    Also, it looks like the Legacy GT may be 6-speed only?

    Bob
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    I noticed that it only said AT for the 2.5i. Are we to assume then that it's the CVT. Note the H6 specifies 5eat - as expected, CVT might be overpowered by the bigger powerplant. If they were just dropping in the Jatco unit, it can handle the same power in the Murano without any issues. 5EAT even outsourced might still be cheaper than the CVT?
    FWIW, I still stand by my long ago assertion that outsourcing the CVT seemed more sensible. If FHI is developing the new unit, it just seems less ill-advised if they have a history.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    AT = CVT, I'm sure.

    Bob
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    FWIW, I still stand by my long ago assertion that outsourcing the CVT seemed more sensible. If FHI is developing the new unit, it just seems less ill-advised if they have a history

    If they are using the unit from the mini car, I would worry about trans longevity. Let's see if there is a tow rating for the auto trans models.

    If the fuel economy increase with CVT/3.6 liter is not significant over 5EAT/3.6l , there is no reason to choose a probably more costly CVT.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    A CVT won't be in the H6, at least not yet.

    Bob
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    But the CVT done right should get definite FE benefit, especially in city driving.
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    But the CVT done right should get definite FE benefit, especially in city driving

    Agreed, but if the CVT is the old Subaru unit designed for a very small engine and vehicle it probably can't be used with the 3.6l. If the power of the 3.6 has been increased with direct injection to 280-300 HP, the limits of the Murano's trans may even be exceeded.
  • hondaruhondaru Member Posts: 11
    With the cozy relationship with Nissan/Toyota, have any of you heard about a hybrid or diesel for these models? I think they would do very well in the US.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Diesel Forester exists in Europe (?maybe Aus) but it is not a clean diesel so it doesn't meet 50 state emissions and cannot be imported.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FirstDrives/articleId=131970
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Murano is heavier, though. It may be able to handle more power in a lighter vehicle.

    Where did I see 30mpg? That's amazing numbers with the revised EPA rules. 2.5i of course.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Canadian Imprezas already get 32.5mpg highway based on EPA numbers. But so do UK, Aus, NZ, .......;-)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Where did I see 30mpg?

    From the US-spec model.

    Bob
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,706
    My friend who has an '08 Impreza 2.5i has averaged 29.1 mpg since September, which means most miles accumulated have been in sub-freezing temperatures, with some of those being VERY (-50F) sub-freezing!

    I think that is great. I averaged 20.3 in my '08 Outback over a winter (October to February). Other than weight, the only real difference was mine as auto versus his as manual.
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Is that using the on-board mpg computer? My '09 WRX has been averaging a bit under 23 mpg using the on-board computer; and about 1 mpg less using my watch calculator.

    Bob
  • xwesxxwesx Member Posts: 17,706
    I don't know for sure. Knowing him though, it is probably based on the computer. Mine was based on my log. I never even looked at the average MPG on the trip computer except while I was on my initial trip and had not logged any of the receipts in to the spreadsheet.

    Even so, 28 is fantastic for the winter months around here. My Escort is giving me about that over the same winter!
    2018 Subaru Crosstrek, 2014 Audi Q7 TDI, 2013 Subaru Forester, 2013 Ford F250 Lariat D, 1976 Ford F250, 1969 Chevrolet C20, 1969 Ford Econoline 100
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    CR got 24 mpg in a manual Forester and 22 mpg in an auto.

    EPA numbers are similar, but in real-world driving the manual seems to win most of the time.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=26079850&postcount=1893
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    If true, the new GT will be a monster!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    2.5NA 187 hp 195lb-ft (CVT)
    2.5T 291 hp 289 lb-ft (all-new engine)
    3.6NA 252 hp 253 lb-ft

    Sweet, even the base engine should be adequate. Look at the torque...
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Wonder where that new output is coming from? Added to a CVT, it should be more than adequate.
  • samiam_68samiam_68 Member Posts: 775
    Sweet, even the base engine should be adequate. Look at the torque...

    It is very likely the car will gain some serious weight, so the increases in power will keep performance in line with the current models.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's see.

    That's 17% more torque than our 2002 had and I doubt it'll be that much heavier. Probably more like 8-10% heavier (300 lbs or so).
  • tifightertifighter Member Posts: 3,795
    That base four is sounding pretty good; especially of it delivers the rumored 30mpg highway...

    25 NX 450h+ / 24 Sienna Plat AWD / 23 Civic Type-R / 21 Boxster GTS 4.0

  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Oh noooooo, not CVT ONLY, I hope? There will still be a stick shift model?

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    ...a weight gain. If it is heavier than the current car, it won't be by much.

    There will be some "official" news coming next week. How much, I don't know.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://jalopnik.com/5192037/2010-subaru-legacy-bigger-longer-and-taller
  • saedavesaedave Member Posts: 694
    Safety, fuel economy and emissions (turbo) seem noteworthy.

    Now that Legacy is 72 inches wide I'll have to consider an Impreza or Forester for next time. :) The improved back seat room is long overdue and should improve sales. The Forester has more space than my Outback 3.0R.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Firsties on "So the base Legacy gets a 6 speed and the WRX still only has a 5???"
    So much for the rumoured extra ponies in the 2.5i. Hopefully the modest weight gain will be offset by the CVT's efficiencies.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think it's good that the Legacy always seems to get more gears, but c'mon, Subaru, spread the wealth. Let's see those on the Forester and Impreza, too.
  • samiam_68samiam_68 Member Posts: 775
    Ugh.... ugly looking thing in those pics. Wider, longer, and taller - Subaru made an AWD Ford Five Hundred. But I will reserve final judgement until I see it in person.
  • dbtdbt Member Posts: 298
    Looks like frames on those door windows to me.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Yep.

    Bob
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    Current Legacy still gets my vote as prettiest, followed by the BD. Anyhoo, I'm not a fan, but not a hater either. Just sorta bland. could be a 500, could be a Maxima. Looking forward to wagon pics....oh, wait, no manual in wagons anymore. :-(
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.pr.subaru.ca/WebPage.aspx?ArticleID=5676&WebPageId=4955&WebSiteId=278-
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    I'm not bitter, but I really don't see the sense of an M6 in the 2.5i. Given the demographic for the manual 2.5 (most of whom are represented here), has anyone ever complained about just a 5sp? On the contrary I could see some that find it an overcomplication and it must mean extra cost. Maybe it could be their new direction and possibly will become their standard for all base manuals including the diesel once it gets clean with the old M5 being retired?
    Now maybe they've just slapped on a highway overdrive a la Corvette but guess we'll have to see. I'd certainly like that in my WRX - I do find 5th a little short. AND I'm not bitter.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    I just remembered too, that if it's the same 6 that is in the diesel, that may not be a good thing given reviews weren't particularly favourable. Then again, other than the STi 6, I don't think they ever really like Subie manuals.
  • movedormovedor Member Posts: 65
    Well, we have 2006 Outback 2.5 limited manual 5speed and both me and my wife think 5th is too short and feel there should be a 6th gear there when going highway speeds. Not sure if it would save more fuel, but noise at 2500 rpm is more bearable than at 3500 rpm, at least for long road trips.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You both bring up a good point, but we should not assume that just because there is a 6th ratio that it's any taller overall.

    I have a 6MT Miata and 6th gear is actually slightly SHORTER than 5th gear on the 5 speed Miata.

    Basically the ratios are all much closer together, and 1st and 2nd especially are much shorter for acceleration.

    I'm getting used to it, 1-3 is fine, but 4-5-6 are so close I sometimes wonder if it's worth the extra effort for the extra shift. Go from 4th to 5th and RPM only drops about ~500 or so, same for 5->6. I end up skipping gears once in a while.

    How they gear it is what matters most. Keep the 5 ratios where they are now and add a tall 6th, maybe, for cruising only.
  • volkovvolkov Member Posts: 1,306
    Yes, my point is probably better expressed by saying: gear it like a Miata 6sp and they've missed their audience. Hopefully they won't and have the sense to stretch things out.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    My guess is that when you're "winding through the gears" (or at the track), the 6 gears will be better appreciated; for commuting and around town driving, probably less so.

    Keep in mind—it is a sports car; and as such, Mazda geared it thusly.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Pretty cool.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/04/04/v...o-from-iphone/

    http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2...oth-audio.html

    This works with the iPhone 3.0 upgrade that's coming this summer, and will work with Bluetoooth-equipped (meaning NAVI-equipped) 2010 Legacys and Outbacks.

    Bob
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    I think this gives reason for hope that it will finally have a tall cruising gear:

    The new 6MT provides excellent fuel economy and
    improved driveability, as well as quieter rides in high-speed ranges, thanks to its wider ratio coverage.

    (from the press release in the jalopnik article)

    And I also eagerly await the introduction of the 6MT to the Impreza (and Forester) line.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    And I also eagerly await the introduction of the 6MT to the Impreza (and Forester) line.

    My guess is you won't see this before 2011—but I'm sure it's coming.

    Bob
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