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Comments
Bob
Interesting, because these will compete with the ST-X. They rated the Sport Trac the highest, not coincidentally the most car-like. Though the only model to have better than average reliability was the so-so rated Tacoma.
That leaves a big opportunity for Subaru. Offer a reliable, car-like Crew Cab and you can win a lot of buyers. The catch?
Payload and towing. Most were in the 1200 pound range for payload and 5000 pound range for towing. Subaru can come close in payload, but not in towing, unless they beef it up a bit.
What I found remarkable was how similar the Crew Cabs were. Not that much to make any one stand out. The Nissan had the bed extender, but my guess is you could get that aftermarket for any one of them.
The ST-X could offer far better ride, handling, fuel economy, and even reliability. But it has to pay the bills - i.e. the utility has to be there.
I still think a Midgate would make it the stand out winner.
-juice
As to the ST-X, I agree; there's a big opportunity here for Subaru. And, as you and I have said many times, the utility has to be there. If they can offer a 1200 lb. payload and a 3500 lb. towing, I think most of us will be happy. I would love to see the midgate too. I would also love to see a tailgate that folds out and drops down to become a ramp to help load ATVs, etc.
Bob
Yeah, 3500# capacity would be adequate. That would satisfy all but the die-hards, and let's fact it - a die hard is just going to get a Dakota with a V8 anyway.
Sometimes I just don't get pickups, though. Yesterday I met this guy that had a new Chevy Extreme pickup. Arrest-me Red, chin spoiler, ground effects, 16" alloys with 55 series tires, tinted windows, graphics and racing strips galore. It was an extended cab with a short bed.
2WD, though, and he was driving his 7 year old kid around in the side-facing rear seat (looked more like a torture chamber to me). Like I said, I just don't get it.
-juice
Bob
Anyway, after driving a 2.0 Turbo Forester over here, um, does anyone have *any* info on the 2003 redesign?
I haven't been able to figure out how to search the boards yet.
cheers, ash
From http://www.mrtrally.com.au/performance/St-Xcar.htm
"Higher in the bed, two indentations on each side can hold 2" x 4"'s on which you can lay 4' x 8' sheets of plywood."
Dennis
I thought I had read that Subaru engineers felt bed extenders put too much weight behind the rear wheel so as to affect the steering (due to no weight on the front tires). That would make a mid gate even more important.
-juice
I'm sure Subaru does not want to encourage owners to add too much extra weight aft the rear axle, because the weight distribution will be easily be thrown way out of wack. Using a bed extender would/could further exacerbate that situation.
I really hope, in the production version, Subaru moves the rear axle further back (increasing the wheelbase) to help offset that possibility.
Bob
...at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!
http://www.edmunds.com/chat/subaruchat.html
-juice
Bob
The real answer is to just give it the mid-gate. No modifications needed to the wheelbase that way (should be the cheaper way to implement this).
-Brian
Patti reported a while ago that they're having safety issues with the mid-gate (after magazine/internet reports saying it won't even get the mid-gate). They're probably frantically trying to come up with a solution because there's not much utility in a 4 1/2 foot bed.
Dennis
Heck - even our current Subies (those with Foresters, Impreza wagons, or Legacy wagons) allow cargo to come forward if you need the space. Just drop the seats down!
-Brian
If the production version of the ST-X is like the concept version, it will have a huge rear overhang. You can bet that some people will put a large heavy load towards the end of the vehicle, and never think twice about it, and then wonder why the vehicle's handling went south. If Subaru moves the rear axle further back (thereby decreasing the rear overhang), that problem will be greatly minimized.
Bob
-Brian
I really hope Subaru doesn't opt for the "easy" way out, and instead, engineers the vehicle properly.
Bob
I wonder if they need to think of anything regarding the drivetrain - with the increased weight on the rear with a 'load', won't the drivetrain be stressed more (the increased weight would make the power shift to the rear wouldn't it?)?
-Brian
Bob
Bob
However, I do suspect that both the '03 Outback and Legacy are due for an upgrade, at least from a performance standpoint. If that's the case, the ST-X I'm sure will also benefit from those upgrades. Hopefully some of those upgrades will also pertain to increased utility/capability of all those models, especially in the area of towing.
If they don't increase the wheelbase of the ST-X, I fear it will have a very low payload capacity rating.
Bob
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
As I mentioned a few posts back, ideally you want to contain the payload "between" the axles, not "behind" the rear axle. If the production ST-X is like the concept vehicle, The vehicle will be extremely tail heavy as in—can you say killer oversteer?
I bet Subaru will post a low payload rating because of handling safety issues.
Bob
I don't think a lower payload will really hurt sales because the target market is probably going to be carrying things such as bikes, or kayaks only. Traditional truck buyers won't be looking for Subaru anyway. Heck, there is still a lot of resistance towards Japanese trucks in general! Most would look at Ford, GM, or Dodge.
My 2 cents,
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
-mike
Bob
For example, a friend of mine is currently shopping around for a 4 door crew cab pickup truck. After extensive research and debating between a pickup, and SUV, and a minivan, he finally decided on a Toyota Tacoma Double Cab 4X4 (not bought yet). He wants the rear bed because he wants to be able to chuck the kids' bikes, hockey and baseball gear, and on occasion the dog in the back without worrying too much about scratches or dirt. He will not be going off-roading at all, with the worse conditions being a logging road to a cabin or fishing spot, not unlike what Ross put Rufus through just recently. They have used the trailer hitch on their current van, but only for towing a light trailer, definitely below 3500lbs.
His wife will be driving it most of the time to shuttle the kids around and it will be the vehicle to take on longer road trips. She wants safety and reasonably good handling, but unfortunately the truck is only available with part-time 4WD and they're unfortunately not even going to get ABS because Toyota Canada forces you to take it with the expensive TRD package which comes with a bunch of unnecessary stuff such as an off-road suspension package.
The Frontier Crew cab was struck off the list because of the lack of space, and the poor offset crash test results. The Ford Explorer Sport Trac was also struck off the list because of reliability issues in addition to the evidence of poor rollover crashworthiness. As for the Chevy S-10 Crew Cab, hah hah ;-). Not even an option. Full-size crew cab pickups would be an overkill for them price-wise and even if we exclude that, the latest round of IIHS crash tests on full-size trucks had appaling results (except for the "good" rated Tundra; rear area too small for the kids).
The Subaru ST-X (or whatever it will be called) would probably be a good choice for them if it was available.
Drew
Host
Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
If Subaru focuses this vehicle at the mountain-bike-type of audience, they are not going to penetrate the typical Harry and Harriet homeowner market—people such as myself and my neighbors. We live in a somewhat rural neighborhood, where many of the homeowners own either a pickup or an SUV in addition to a car. Most of the properties in my neighborhood range from 1 acre up to 3 and more. Many of these homes also have boat trailers or utility trailers. My neighborhood is not that unusual. I'm willing to bet the new ST-X (if it's no more than an Outback with an open bed) will be a no-show here, because it won't be able to cut the mustard. In addition, you're dealing with generally an older more conservative audience, whose perceptions about trucks are going to be hard to change.
You say your friend may be an ideal candidate for the new ST-X. I don't disagree with that. I'm not convinced, however, that if the ST-X were currently available, that they would chose it over the Tacoma. If their loaded trailer is over 2000 lbs., I doubt they would.
Bob
I'm envisioning (brain fart) the ST-X to lay some sort of foundation for a spinoff from the S/G-X project - "Pickup truck tough...car versatility?" (Confidence in GM, that's another matter).
Toyota experienced this same problem with the original T-100. When released, it had an engine that was way too small, and the styling was mediocre at best. The result was dismal sales. When they put the 3.4 DOHC in it, the sales started to improve. My neighbor has one, and loves it. When they introduced the Tundra with the V-8, the sales took off like a skyrocket.
Even though the T-100 was an excellent vehicle—it missed the mark because of certain real (or imagined) marketing missteps. I'm worried that Subaru might do the same.
Bob
Bob
Subaru could surprise us. I wonder if Patti will have any additional comments on all this ST-X talk when she gets back from vacation.
-Brian
Thank you!
-mike
David - IIRC, the 02 OB's will be available in August. The Japanese Legacy's recently had some cosmetic changes but I haven't heard when we're getting any. They're adding a OB VDC sedan but I think other major things remain the same. Maybe we'll be surprised.
paisan - The Taurus seat cushion is split as well as the seat backs? I haven't come across a situation where I needed that. I have folded one rear seat down to carry something with one passenger in the rear seats. What's an example where someone would need to fold one rear seat completely flat?
Dennis
-mike
Dennis
I do work in Mexico, fieldwork that is, and having a vehicle like that would be ideal. If indeed it features an "Avalanche"-like folding mid-gate, to go between pick-up and 4 door crew-cab configuration, that would be ideal.
Are they DEFINITELY putting in the 6 cylinder? Weren't they playing around with the idea of a turbo 4 cylinder?
With some good ground clearance, better than the Forester that is, it will be something I consider for my next vehicle purchase. If it's as low as the outback, forget it, if you've seen some Mexican roads you know why it would be a problem.
perrito
-mike
Bob
Hey, maybe they'll let Patti drive a pre-production model.
Dennis
I love optimism.
-juice
Dennis - do you go to Atco to race? I'm thinking of going there because it is only about 20 minutes from my home - + my eldest son works security there on occasion. He's been wanting me to come by.
That's also where I raced me old Cougar a "few" years ago.
Patti