Subaru Crew - Future Models II

ateixeira · July 2001

Aren't some Subarus used in fleets?

Also, I've seen Amigos on SoCal beaches for the life guards to use.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

brands offering AWD at Subie price points, a longer/better warranty would go a long way to keep and gain customers. It says to me that the manufacturer (Subaru) has great confidence in their product. That, in turn, makes me as a customer, feel very reassured and confident that I made a good decision in my purchase.

Bob

paisan · July 2001

Yep, but those vehicles that are sold through fleet sales come with a different set of options (subies with rh drive, trooper "s" models with inglass antenna and in-glass tint) and with these different set of sales also comes a different set of warranties. The fleet sales may also offer the long warranties on them, but it's probably built into the price differently (more expensive) due to the fact that they know the user isn't going to be the owner and hence more likely to have warranty issues.

-mike

qbrozen · July 2001

rsholland - thanks for the link

drew - i'm already on that forum, but that poster on the M board didn't post on the c230 board, so ....

in regards to those spy photos, I think that RSX photo is pretty damned good. That person spent alot of time on that. I think it is doctored, but its pretty tough to tell for most people. The only way I can tell for sure is the screwed up alignment of the pixels near the back of the "rear" door, and I had to take it in Photoshop and zoom in to see that for sure. Why did they flip the photo? I have no idea. Just a screwup, I think.

rsholland · July 2001

If it was scanned from a transparency, and the transparency was flopped (backwards), that could easily be the answer. For whatever reason it was not corrected in Photoshop. This is a common error, and nothing to be concerned aboutunless it had words that could be read, or if there was some other dead give away that it was flopped.

Bob

rsholland · July 2001

The new '02 Outbacks and Legacys have an illuminated ignition key. As you know, this is something the "Crew" had been squawking about for some time. The fact that this feature is now standard, is that because of Edmunds input? Or, merely just a coincidence?

It would be great to know what if any impact we do have on future products. Please keep us posted. Thanks.

Bob

paisan · July 2001

I'm not sure if she can tell us that it was us who influenced it. Or else we might be able to try to collect $ from SOA. You know those whacky Lawyers...

-mike

kens · July 2001

Bob,

I'd like to think that we helped to "influence" their decision. ;-)

Okay gang, let's all start sqwaking: "B4 RSK, B4 RSK, 2.5 Turbo, 2.5 Turbo, 6-speed manual, 5-speed auto..."

Ken

cb70 · July 2001

STX-Brat with midgate=huge success

STX-Brat no midgate=sad failure

PLEASE put in a midgate SOA!

rsholland · July 2001

Just interested to see if we do indeed have an effect on future product. It would be nice/gratifying to know we may have influenced some decisions, and what they were.

A while back, Patti did say that we influenced 8 changes on the new '03 Forester. When it debuts, I'd be interested to know what those changes were.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2001

I wonder if that keyhole illumination can be retrofitted.

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

but I doubt it will happen. Please Subaru, prove me wrong.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2001

I'm noticing a trend in an lot of new SUVs. It started with the RX300, then the Highlander, then the Mitsubishi ASX and the Saturn VUE concepts. They're all getting center console-mounted shifters.

I personally find them a bit goofy looking, but I guess they're trying to offer minivan utility - a walk through to the back seats.

Just thought I'd share my thoughts. What do you think, Bob? Why not just a column shifter? Do they still carry a stigma?

-juice

tincup47 · July 2001

Look at one of the number one complaints about the Escape, the column shifter.

ateixeira · July 2001

Really? Under their problems board, I read a lot about engines dying and tranny hesitations.

-juice

subearu · July 2001

Don't forget about the 'Maliburu' that is rumored to replace the next Chevy Malibu. I kind of wonder if it'll just be a rebadged Legacy....

-Brian

tincup47 · July 2001

In reviews and comments why people wouldn't buy them.

rsholland · July 2001

You and I have talked about this at some length at the car shows we seen together.

I don't mind them at all. In fact I prefer them to column shifters. Why? As with a conventional console shifter, the linkage is more direct. Also it frees up more steering column space for other control "stalks," like what Subaru and others use. Having a column shifter won't allow for that.

Granted, it may take some getting used to, as with anything new, but I think it's an improvement.

I also believe the new '01 Civic Si has such an arrangement, if I'm not mistaken.

Bob

ateixeira · July 2001

I see.

I think the ones that poke out of the center console look even dorkier. Maybe I'm in the minority, or it's because I never drove an Alfa.

If you think about it, the column shifter actually leaves you with more room.

-juice

diploid · July 2001

It's not my screen or my eyes. If you look at the "4-door" RSX's rear, you will see (even if you can't make out the lettering on your screen) the raised RSX emblem, which is supposed to be on the right side of the car.

rsholland · July 2001

but it clutters up the steering column.

Our Explorer has a column shift. The wipers and high beam are on the stalk. The headlight switch is on the dash. It's OK, but I would rather have it on the console. With the Subaru, you have your light controls to the left of the column, and your wiper controls to the right of the column, both on stalks. If the Subaru had a column shift (God forbid!), one of those stalks would have to go.

The only difference between a traditional "console" shift, and the new "dash" shift, is that it is a bit further forward, and is on an angle. I think people will readily get used to it.

You're right about the Alfa though. It was a similar design.

rsholland · July 2001

So they flopped the image. It's no big deal. As a graphic designer I can tell you that's done all the time.

Bob

diploid · July 2001

I'm telling you how I could tell that the photo was flipped because you seemed to question how I did it. Maybe it's just me, but I did smell some sarcasm from your post.

ateixeira · July 2001

Just found this on KBB on the Tribute and Escape: "One annoying aspect shared by both SUVs is the automatic transmission's column mounted shift lever. When in drive, the lever sticks out across the center dash controls, partially blocking them."

I didn't sense any sarcasm, but I've met Bob and so I know him better. If anything, it sounded like he was putting down his own eyesight.

Now where's that "Post My Message" button? ;-)

-juice

rsholland · July 2001

Just pointing out that flopping images is done all the time.

Bob

amishra · July 2001

relax, I'm sure bob wasn't trying to be sarcastic

barresa62 · July 2001

Our Bob is one cool dude...I mean he laughs at jokes in my post. :-) I'm sure he wasn't being sarcastic, in fact, I didn't get any of that when I read his post. I even went back and reread.

Stephen

bblacha · July 2001

Most communist-era FWD cars in Europe (e.g. Trabant) had the manual transmission gear shift on the steering column.

I always thought that made a lot of sense - your hand travels less distance between the wheel and the gear shift, so you can faster start steering with both hands (required without power steering!) Also, in a FWD car, it makes the linkage more direct.

--Bart

rsholland · July 2001

with flattery like that I might get a big head... and I don't think the "Crew" is ready for that. >->

Bob

barresa62 · July 2001

drew_ · July 2001

...at 6-7pm Pacific/9-10 pm Eastern. Hope to see you there!

http://www.edmunds.com/chat/subaruchat.html

diploid · July 2001

kostamojen2 · July 2001

Sorry for the late post, i was gone yesterday :P

Anyway, that RSX is a pretty damn good photochop if it even is one. Look at the reflections, they acuratly depict a car being reflected off the side, and its very linear and acurate.

The only evidence that this image has been "altered" (Fliped doesnt count) might be the slight smudge in the indent in the bottom half of the 2nd door, and the odd shape of the window making it look frameless (which Acura doesnt do)

p0926 · July 2001

Juice- You've got my vote. I think they're incredibly dorky looking. But then I'd never buy an auto so why do I care. The sad thing about the console shifter design is that the manufacturer is letting you know up front that they don't plan on offering a manual trans option.

-Frank P.

ateixeira · July 2001

We should care because some manuals are that way! The old Alfas, and the new Civic Si. Hope this Ugly Disease does not affect Subaru.

BTW, I believe Acura does have frameless windows, no?

-juice

miksmi · July 2001

So does a Dodge Neon. That one surprised me.

..Mike

bluesubie · July 2001

comments remind me of old i-club discussions about a certain car.
That on the dock in China(?) picture and the blurry photo from Europe.
..."There's no way that's the WRX!! It's so ugly!" :-)

Dennis

diploid · July 2001

What's with frameless windows? Is that something luxurious? I've never noticed when a car's window had frames or not.

ateixeira · July 2001

They're just different, not necessarily cheap or luxurious. Mercedes uses them on their finest coupes. Neon has them, too.

I like them because the doors are lighter, and they seem to reduce the thickness of the pillars (to lessen blind spots).

-juice

qbrozen · July 2001

you think the old Alfa shifter is ugly? Geez, and here all along I thought my manual Alfa Spider was cool for having that.

Personally, I love it. It LOOKED strange at first, but once I started driving it for the first time, I found it very natural and comfortable to use. I think it has a lot to do with the low seating position in the Spider. It puts the shifter right around elbow height and doesn't make you stretch or retract your arm any further once in position. Its more up and down rather than back and forth. I find it more intuitive than a floor shifter. But, of course, everybody has an opinion. Mine just happens to be based on function rather than looks.

(did that last comment sound snotty? hehe)

ateixeira · July 2001

I like it when I can reach the shifter with my elbow still on the arm rest. I can do this with both my Miata and Forester. Our 626 is lacking an arm rest so it's less comfortable to me.

Wow, up and down? I guess it sounds more odd than it feels.

-juice

qbrozen · July 2001

no arm rest in the alfa, either. I'd probably notice that more if I drove it more than 30 miles at a time, but i'm just too busy having fun with it. Come to think of it ... where the heck do I rest my elbows?

So, let me get this straight, you have a 626, Forester, and a Miata? I have a 626, Forester, and an Alfa Spider. Methinks that is very odd ..... in a coincidental sort of way.

locke2c · July 2001

I owned a first generation Neon (a '97 ACR) and those frameless windows lived every bit up to the reputation frameless windows have for being noisy and poor sealing.

My Impreza is incomparably better, even comparing both when new. I would expect Mercedes to be the same way.

Anyway, a frameless window allows the cockpit to be more structurally sound... it actually has to be because the top of the door no longer bears load.

I like 'em when done right!

-Colin

ateixeira · July 2001

Amazing coincidence, I guess. You have good taste! :-)

The Benz' windows actually move up just a tad after you close the door, for a better seal. It's pretty trick. When you open the door, the window lower itself quickly enough that you don't even notice.

Of course, for the price of a house you get trick features like that.

Look up close and Subies use a double-seal. The window rests against the main seal, and there is another lip that creates a channel for water to drain, just in case it managed to pass the first seal.

So long as the window is properly lined up, it won't leak.

-juice

miksmi · July 2001

Re: qbrozen Jul 20, 2001 7:31am

qbrozen> Mine just happens to be based on function rather than looks.

Wrong! This is correct:

Mine just happens to be based on function rather than form.

There. That's how to be snotty.

I'm just kidding with you, Rob. I haven't been here in a while so let me say WELCOME to the Crew! BTW I'm also a function over form person myself; you've got plenty of company here.

Cheers,

..Mike

miksmi · July 2001

Colin, These seem contradictory:

reputation frameless windows have for being noisy and poor sealing and

a frameless window allows the cockpit to be more structurally sound

Are you saying it's easier/more common to design/assemble a noisy, poor sealing door using a frameless window than a framed window? Or that a frameless window allows a cockpit with more structural integrity. Maybe I should keep quiet long enough for you to answer. (btw I'm not parsing words, I'm being dense)

..Mike

yetiracer · July 2001

In 89', I was riding my bike (So.Cal Roadie) about 24 mph. when a guy opened his door on me. I hit the end of the door, flew over the top of the door, landed on my head and shoulder which broke my collar bone. If this car would have had a frame, it probably would have killed me or seriously injured my chest area, instead I was home that evening. luckily the window was down also. So, it can be a good thing. Just my $.02

p0926 · July 2001

Now there's a testimonial for the value of frameless windows!

p0926 · July 2001

I fail to see how having the shifter mounted in the console is more functional than being mounted on the floor. Maybe I'm dense but it would seem to me that the reverse would be true. Can somebody enlighten me?

-Frank P.

P.S. I've driven a car with a column mounted manual shifter and as far as I'm concerned, it has neither form nor function!

qbrozen · July 2001

Just so we're clear, Frank, we are talking about a shifter that's base is simply position more "vertically" than your standard floor shifter, right? You just kinda threw me when you added the comment about the column shifter.

Maybe more "functional" is a bit confusing of a term to use. I should have avoided it. Anyway, what i mean is that, personally, I find it rather comfortable and natural to use in relation to my body position when driving said Spider. It doesn't technically "function" any better than a floor mounted shifter.

Also, just to be picky, the shifter is technically "mounted" in the same place on the tranny as in a floor shifter instance. The designers just put a severe angle in the shifter arm and then built a console around it so that it looks like the shifter is coming almost straight out of the dashboard.

Mike - ah. I see. Thanks for the clarification. I will try harder next time.

Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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