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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    Colin: The lack of engine braking is certainly a factor when slowing down (and I had problems there too), but most of the time I was closing in on other cars too fast was on acceleration from a stop. By the time the throttle would match up to my "intentions" I'd be going too fast and would have to back off or tap the brakes. I seem to have gotten over that problem.

    My major issue now is that I often try to depress the clutch pedal when coming to a stop, but only at toll booths or when I'm going through the security checkpoint on the way into work. Must be due to the fact that I am usually concentrating on getting change together or pulling out my badge at the time.

    What's bad about this is that the "clutch" pedal that my left foot finds is really the left edge of that wide brake pedal you get on auto cars. So, I think I'm depressing the clutch but instead I slam on the brakes! Talk about confusing!

    Patti: sounds familiar! I bet your husband would have been OK with the WRX if you just brought it home, and said "too bad, here it is", go have fun. I can't imagine anyone who would say no to that, especially after it's too late!! I used a similar tactic when I bought an iBook for my wife -- I brought it home, endured about 15 minutes of "I can't believe you spent all that money", and then watched her fall in love with it. Now, she uses it all the time, it's become indispensible in the kitchen for recipes and stuff, and I am the computer hero of the house! Well, that's my warped perception of it anyway . . . . she probably still thinks I am a knucklehead.

    Craig
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    CAFE mandates a fleet average of 27.5 for Subaru (no help from GM), and last I heard they were exactly at that limit. They need to make the 2.5l more efficient, or perhaps offer the 156hp 2.0l engine in the base TS wagon and maybe the Legacy L.

    Another solution: 5 speed automatics. Give them a tall 5th gear for ultra-high mpg on the highway. GM uses that trick, and some 3.8l engines get 31mpg highway EPA (not real world).

    Wife's car just got back from the shop. The whining was not the same axle again, it was the left front wheel hub and wheel bearing. $820 later it's back on the road.

    Gotta say, I'm sort of disappointed in her 626. It was good for about 5 years, then we had the fuel system problem ($500), then the O2 sensor and axle boot at the same time ($720), and now the hub and bearing ($820). That's over $2 grand in repairs in the last 2 years. Not good.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    They're thinking of adding a bottom-feeder FWD to the X-Type line up. Say it ain't so...

    Bob

    http://www.bonforums.com/jaguar/jag_typexeditorial.htm
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    really likes the new Expedition. They call it the new benchmark for its class.

    Bob

    http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/48583/page035.html
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Interesting to see yet another SUV ditching a solid axle for independent rear suspension.

    Ken
  • jimmyj1945jimmyj1945 Member Posts: 141
    They should all be painted yellow! What a bus. Every cowgirl and her sister have one, giving them the right of way to go anywhere they want. You better not be in the way. And, when they park-make it two large spaces please.

    This is of course my opinion only!

    Jim
  • c_hunterc_hunter Member Posts: 4,487
    I just don't understand why people like the Expedition. I know 4 people with them, and only one person has a legitimate need for the vehicle (towing). Everybody else drives them around like some sort of status symbol. And I can't begin to count the number of times I have been bullied by one of these behemoths (or a similar vehicle) in parking lots or on the road. They just take up too much space. Something this big should be taxed for all the inconvenience it causes the rest of us!

    I noticed the how the names Expedition, Excursion, and Escalade are quite similar to "excess", so that's been my nickname for any of these road hogs.

    Craig
  • jimmyj1945jimmyj1945 Member Posts: 141
    I know the forester will be shown next month. Does anyone know when the details for other Subarus will be announced?

    Jim
  • jimmyj1945jimmyj1945 Member Posts: 141
    My point exactly craig. Makes driving and parking more difficult for everyone and those with attitude-really pi** me off.

    Jim
  • wmiller4wmiller4 Member Posts: 97
    I think the H6 has great pull off the line. Now that I am past the break-in point I can drive a little harder. It suprises me sometimes. Once night I was able to stay out front of a Ford Sport Trac with no problems. (I know I know! The Bean is not a race car.) We both started from a stop light and the Ford was unable to get ahead of me. ( I was late for hockey.) In my opinion the H6 runs quieter and smoother than the H4.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The reason I posted this link is because I believe Ford has made a significant breakthrough in this class (full-size SUV) of vehicle. Even with the new IRS, it's still rated to tow 8900 pounds, and the additional IRS benefits of better on-road handling and interior space gains and improved packaging are huge, just like those found in the new redesigned '02 Explorer.

    Yes, for most people it's (still) too large, but for those who do need a full-size SUV, this should be on their short list of vehicles to look at.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I disagree with one part of that article - the styling on the X-Type is very nice. Look at the complex shape of the hood. Crowds surrounded it at the DC Auto Show; it's a head turner.

    But using FWD in a Jag will be a huge mistake. It's like selling your soul for short-term profits. Just make a bunch of them with no options, at $30k it's a strong value (though a bit tight inside).

    Expeditions are really popular around me. One of my wife's friends has one, and she fits the stereotype perfectly. Soccer mom, 2 kids, never goes off road, never uses 4WD, and has damaged it 3 times while parking by braille.

    But Ford is merely selling what people want to buy. And making it more car-like is what owners want. Power folding side mirrors (a la Trooper) would have prevented 2 of the 3 "accidents" she had.

    -juice
  • goldencouple1goldencouple1 Member Posts: 209
    We live in the rugged Southwest -- housewives go to the supermarket in F350 Superduties to pick up a gallon of milk. Explorers, Expeditions and even a fair number of Excursions populate our roads -- I think I see more Expeditions than Explorers now-a-days. "Ford is the best selling truck in Texas", and Southern NM apparently -- the largest dealer in town is Ford (plus Honda, Hyundai, and Mazda, but they make it plain that what they really want to sell is Fords). Which brings me to my point. Ford probably will not be able to build the new Expedition without mistakes and recalls. My experience with Ford (Mustang and a Mazda pickup (Ranger in disguise)) is one of niggling disappointments, cheap materials, electrical glitches, a few recalls, fairly crude manufacture, and dealer arrogance and incompetence (this being dealership-wide, from Florida to NM). Having observed Ford for the last eight years (some of that time working for a particularly successful dealer in a support capacity) I think that Ford is incapable of ever getting into a postion where it can consistently produce well-made vehicles -- Ford is too taken up with the idea that if they say it is so it is so (even though they have not made it so). Quality has been job #1 for over twenty years now and it still is not the truth.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The bean counters were in control. Jac Nasser spent his energy acquiring money-losing divisions and ignored the product. I think Ford Jr. is more of a product guy, if not quite Mr. Lutz.

    -juice
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    The explanation is quite simple. It's job #1 because they have never been able to achieve it! It's still at the top of their "to-do" list.

    Ross
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    LOL, to-do list!

    -juice
  • kate5000kate5000 Member Posts: 1,271
    Nothing to start my day as Ford-bashing...
    :-) :-) :-) :-)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ford did drop to the bottom of the former Big Three in quality levels, and they know it.

    AN had an article on what Lutz is doing, but lots of it involves cost cutting. He said he'd get rid of things like vanity lights, power outlets in the rear, and nicer carpeting. I'm not sure if that'll do anything besides cut costs.

    I guess if they put that money on better powertrains and stonger structures, OK.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, you thought Phaeton was bad.

    The new VW SUV will be called the "Tuareg", which must be the ugliest name I've ever heard. Half Tuarus, half regular? Are they kidding?

    Apparently it's some nomadic tribe in the Sahara, but Colorado was a much better name.

    -juice

    PS One DCX exec hinted that the Chrysler Crossfire would be under $50 grand. Are they nuts? Try $30 grand. Isn't it supposed to compete with the TT?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Well, so much picking a name with good recognition factor!

    It may be the hottest seller in the Sahara, not so sure how it will fly in Des Moines. VW seems to have a thing for the Sahara; the (VW) Scirocco is the name for a warm gentle desert breeze.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Given Porsche will share the platform, why not bring back the Scirocco name, and market it as a sport wagon?

    Oops, that's right, VWs are supposed to be softer, to compete with M-B, not BMW (Audi does that).

    What a goofy name, though. Check out the Forester topic for a few 2003 sketches that look, um, interesting.

    -juice
  • bblachabblacha Member Posts: 160
    If that article posted on the Forester board is right, the 2003 Forester will have the H4 and H6, with unchanged HP ratings.

    H6 availability is definitely a step in the right direction for Subaru. Maybe they won't mess up like they did with the Baja. There's hope!

    --Bart
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    Sounds like something the Huns would make!

    Sorry, just couldn't resist.
  • jimmyj1945jimmyj1945 Member Posts: 141
    and just a little bit larger! I'll take one please! Does anyone know when they will go on sale? Did I see June somewhere?

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bart: can you translate more? Any notes on the wheelbase or rear suspension?

    H6 would be cool, I just hope they offer it with a manual tranny. I'd even settle for a 5 speed auto at this point.

    And hurry it up, before the 626 breaks again!

    -juice
  • goldencouple1goldencouple1 Member Posts: 209
    The Tuareg are called the "Blue Men". They dress in turbans and robes dyed indigo, so blue it's almost black; and the men hide their faces most of the time. They have specialized in caravaning for hundreds of years, perhaps more than a thousand years. With camels then -- mostly trucks now. A very romantic image -- but the name will be unpronounceable. Maybe it could just be a symbol and it could be called the SUV formally known as...
  • zorba52zorba52 Member Posts: 5
    GM, Fuji Heavy, Subaru and Hybrids...


      see http://biz.yahoo.com/rf/020115/t76784_1.html


      "Tuesday January 15, 1:27 am Eastern Time


      Fuji Heavy sees 2002 sales up 1.6%, to make hybrids


      TOKYO, Jan 15 (Reuters) - Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd , the maker of Subaru cars, said on

      Tuesday it expected global sales to total 580,000 units in 2002, up 1.6 percent from

      2001, as a revamped model boosts sagging sales in Japan.


      Fuji Heavy, 20 percent owned by General Motors Corp (NYSE:GM - news), also

      said it plans to develop and begin selling environmentally friendly hybrid vehicles

      by March 2006 as part of a new mid-term business plan set to be unveiled this

      May.


      The maker of rugged all-wheel-drive vehicles expects its overall sales, including 660cc

      minivehicles, in Japan to fall 0.9 percent to 287,000 vehicles in 2002. But it forecast

      sales in the more profitable registered vehicle segment, which excludes minivehicles, to

      rise 8.1 percent.


      Fuji Heavy President Kyoji Takenaka said he believed a revamped version of the Forester

      sports utility vehicle set for release in February would help boost sluggish domestic sales

      and push U.S. sales past last year's record-high level.


      ``This year we will be introducing our long-awaited model changes...and despite all the

      tough numbers coming out about the condition of the domestic and foreign markets, we

      are forecasting (around) two percent growth,'' he told a news conference.


      Fuji Heavy expects 2002 U.S. sales to rise 2.2 percent to around 190,000 vehicles from

      2001, when they posted record sales of 185,944 units.


      The maker of Legacy station wagons in November cut its group operating profit forecast

      by 17 percent for the year to March to 70 billion yen ($531 million) due to concerns

      about a price war in the U.S. market.


      The company said Subaru of America, which accounts for about two-thirds of its group

      global auto profits, said it planned to offer sales incentives of around $850 in 2002,

      compared with $784 last year.


      The automaker did not say how many hybrids it would develop and for which

      models, but said it was interested in developing hybrid versions for vehicles of all

      sizes.


      Hybrid cars are powered by a small gasoline engine and an electric motor.


      Fuji Heavy would be following Japanese rivals such as Toyota Motor Corp and Honda

      Motor Co Ltd , which have been aggressively developing the fuel-efficient vehicles as

      demand for them rises worldwide in the face of tighter environmental rules...."


      The Kernel

      GO ENOVA SYSTEMS!!!

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Forester release in February? So I guess we will see it at the Toronto show, or maybe earlier, in Australia or Japan?

    190k sales forecast seems pretty optimistic. The market overall will be way down. Note they said incentives would increase - I had mentioned they would bring back the $750 incentive again, maybe more.

    That bodes well for the LL Bean buyers. I doubt it would apply to the Forester, unless it's left over 2002 models.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I've finally had time to take a closer look at these, and I'll share some thoughts, to spark up discussions here:

    RDX: stands for RiDiculuX. If the 2.4l can make 200hp, why does the CR-V settle for 160? Put the 6 speed clutchless tranny in something.

    Rendezvous Touring: isn't the Buick a raised minivan to begin with? So, you lower it again, and you end up where you started! The engine is coarse and needs more power, but a S/C will only make it more coarse. It needs the smoother 3.8l to replace the 3.4l, not a S/C.

    Cien: looks cool. Only the C-pillar isn't well sorted out, but I like it.

    Bel Air: I don't get it. The front looks exactly like a Suzuki Esteem, especially the headlights. Retro styling is OK, but do people really want a column shifter and a bench seat? Also, the 3.5l would make 224hp scaled down from the Blazer's engine (proportionally), and the turbo boost button is silly. Who wouldn't rig it so that it's down all the time?

    Pacifica: grew on me a little since I first saw it. Still a little bloated. Chrysler has too many big sedans overlapping with each other. Drop the Concorde and LHS (already gone), and sell only the Intrepid, the 300M, and this. 6 seats? Why not 7? And a 4 speed auto is less than expected at this price level.

    Bob - any comments? I'm looking at the next five or so models now.

    -juice
  • bblachabblacha Member Posts: 160
    I don't read German very well, but they talk about it being roomier and more sporty, which I would suspect involves suspension changes. It does say Subaru in principle only has two platforms, but we all know that.

    The Toronto show web site does mention the new Forester, and that starts on February 15th. Is there an earlier show in Japan?

    --Bart
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't think so. Tokyo came and went. I was thinking it might show up on the street. They often get them 6 months before we do.

    More concepts and comments...

    M80: cladding puts the Baja to shame. M80 is to the next Dakota what the Power Wagon was to the new Ram.

    Ram SRT-10: don't those wheels give a white-wall effect? People will buy these ridiculous things, despite the 3mpg they'll get. 24" wheels has got to be a record, though.

    Razor: doesn't it look like the Crossfire, especially from the back? I bet they share a platform, only the Razor has a shorter wheelbase and a 4 banger. So it's a decontented Crossfire.

    Forty-nine (ragtop): not bad. Much nicer than the Bel Air. Ford could build it because all the hardware already exists. Let it replace the Crown Vic.

    GT40: Ford needs a halo car. The Mustang limited editions have been crushed in comparisons. Take a shot at it, in very limited numbers, for racing only.

    Tonka: Power Wagon, part II. Way overdone, I'm sure the real F-350 will be much more mild.

    T-Bird custom: yawn. What, no 6 speed manual?

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Autonomy: interestint concept, but it has about 2" of ground clearance. You know what's funny? Flip it over, then it's perfect. So it's just upside down!

    FX45: bummer for Infiniti that it looks just like the Pacifica, right down to the D-pillar. Seats just 4, who will buy this? Inside it's nice.

    Axiom XSR: like a VX-02 updated with an Axiom front end. Power hardtop? Wow. The space-age styling actually fits better on a 2 door than it does on the 4 door.

    Axiom XST: nice switchgate, but if they put it into production it's probably just a tease. ;-) Diesel hints at the next Rodeo engine. Also, the front looks space-ace, but the rear is boxy and just does not match. Use the Trooper's front end for this boxy vehicle. Integrated bed extender is neat.

    Compass: hey, folks, Jeep re-engineered the 2 door RAV4! Does that not look the same, especially from the rear view? V6 and AWD, no low range, on a Jeep? Will purists accept it? I think it's pretty cool, actually.

    -juice
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    Some people have mentioned putting a 2.5 low pressure turbo in the Legacy rather than the 2.0 biturbo which is already in the WRX and the RSK/GTB etc. Does Subaru already have a 2.5 turbo in other markets??
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    No, there is no 2.5 Turbo at all. Currently Subaru only has the 2.0 Tubro and bi-Turbo available. One big reason why Subaru only has a 2.0 Turbo is due to taxes based on engine sizes in Japan. Under these laws, it's more economical to turbocharge a small displacement engine.

    Many of us here would like to see a 2.5 Turbo since it would offer better low-end power compared to the current 2.0T.

    Ken
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,733
    Did you notice that this 2-door 2-seat convertible has a 4,500 lb. towing capacity? Strange combo.

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I haven't really studied the new models from either Detroit or LA that much. I really didn't see a whole that really excited me. In any case, here are some random thoughts...

    Jeep Compass: I like it. It's built off the Liberty platform, and is inspired by rally cars. It needs an IRS though. Interestingly, there are a couple of Jeep boards that I frequent. Most of these folks absolutely hated the Liberty, but don't seem to mind the Compass that much. I guess it's because the Liberty replaced the much-loved Cherokee, whereas the Compass, if it ever gets produced, doesn't replace anything.

    Ford GT 40: Again I like it, even if it is just a new take on a 35+-year old racer.

    Dodge M80: I like this too—especially the fold-out rear fender step, located between the rear of the cab and the rear wheel. I think that's an ingenious idea!

    Expedition & Navigator: Even though the "Crew" is a somewhat "hostile" audience for these types of vehicles, I think Ford did an excellent job with the updates that these two got.

    Chevy BelAir: Enough already! As I've said before, nobody has done a better retro than Chrysler did with the Prowler. IMO, every other retro has been a me too affair.

    Chevy SSR: The best feature about this vehicle—and it is a great feature— is that the folding hard top stacks vertically behind the rear seat. This is a much better solution than that found on the MB SLK and Lexus SC430. Those models have the folding top over the luggage area, which greatly reduces space and limits access. While the SSR is another retro, this top idea is the most advanced folding roof solution that I have seen to date.

    Other than that, I didn't get too excited by what I saw. Maybe I'll go back and really look at some of these cars, and get back with additional comments.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The XSR is built on the axiom/rodeo chassis which can handle 4500lbs towing. The whole Isuzu line is great for towing and are quite tough. Now if they could get their marketingheads out of their butts they'd sell some cars.

    -mike
  • texsubarutexsubaru Member Posts: 242
    Weighing in rather late (been mostly out of pocket for the past month): I don't think the Baja is so bad. Yeah, the cladding is a bit overdone, but otherwise I think it's a pretty cool looking vehicle. Offering an H6 or turbo as an available option would probably be a smart move on Subaru's part, but until I get a chance to actually test drive a Baja, I'll definitely withhold judgment on whether it's really all that important (I've met folks who've never driven a Forester and who mistakenly assume it must be underpowered since it only has a 4-cylinder engine available). Mixed feelings on the "switchback" -- it's clearly not going to be as versatile as the Avalanche midgate, but I'm actually a bit relieved that it has any sort of cabin opening since there had been rumors last year that Subaru was having trouble getting the thing to work. And, who knows, it might prove sturdier than the more-plastic-moving-parts-to-break Chevy midgate? And, yeah, Subaru really ought to bolster the Baja's towing capacity, but I think that's not going to be a crucial selling point anyway; this vehicle is clearly aimed at the young mountain-biking-in-Moab crowd, not to building contractors or to families who need to tow their ski boat. What I think WILL be the make-or-break point for the Baja is the pricing. If the prices are as high as figures I've seen bandied about in this forum ($27K or more), then, yeah, I'd strongly fear mediocre sales at best. But if Subaru can keep the MSRP cleanly under $25K, so that the youth market it's aimed at can actually afford it, then I think it could potentially do pretty well, if the handling and reliability prove solid.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Member Posts: 33,733
    If its built on that chassis, then they must have cut part of that chassis out. Unless its just an optical illussion, that is a short vehicle - much shorter than the axiom or rodeo. I didn't catch the wheelbase number on it. And if they cut part of it out, can it really be considered the same chassis?

    '11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well the Amigo is a SWB version of the Rodeo platform and it tows the same 4500lbs as the Rodeo, same goes for the Vehicross, it is a SWB Trooper and tows 5000lbs. Don't forget these aren't uni-body vehicles, they are full ladder frames (6 or 7 crossmembers depending on model) so yes it is the same chassis. I'd bet that the min is 4500 for the swb and the lwb could probably tow more but they keep it the same as extra safety precautions. I tow 5200lbs semi-regularly with my trooper w/o any problems with it's rating at 5000lbs.

    Happy towing!

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bob: they hinted that the Compass would be the next Jeep to be produced. I thought it was cool, too, but it has to supplement, not replace, the Wrangler.

    A general question, though: what's wrong with retro? Lots of concepts use nostalgic hints but don't want to be labeled as "retro". But look at the hits from the past years - New Beetle, PT Cruiser. Clearly those are retro. So is the T-bird, Forty Nine, Bel Air. Why is retro a bad word?

    paisan: I really think GM took away all of Isuzu's R&D budget and forced them to focus on diesel production instead of the trucks. I read that once again they are increasing production on those (520 lb-ft may explain why).

    I think they said they took 10" off the Axiom wheelbase to do the concept.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    There is a significant shortage of the Duramax Diesel engines. Apparently Isuzu is selling em off the shelf! Especially with the upcoming 5.0 and 4.0l versions of the duramax slated to go into the toyota SUVs and Pickups.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    << A general question, though: what's wrong with retro? Lots of concepts use nostalgic hints but don't want to be labeled as "retro". But look at the hits from the past years - New Beetle, PT Cruiser. Clearly those are retro. So is the T-bird, Forty Nine, Bel Air. Why is retro a bad word? >>

    It's not bad per say. In fact, I strongly believe that "heritage" is vitally important to the success of any brand. Look at Mercedes for example, or the Chevy Suburban. There's a direct link between the current models, and those produced 60 years ago. That I think is good.

    My problem with it is that it has become the "trendy" thing to do. Most of these vehicles do not advance the automotive "state-of-art" as I interpret it. The Prowler, was the first&#151;and it was fun. Most likely, none of the other retro concepts would even exist, if the Prowler wasn't such a hit. I think the Ford '49 was dumb. I think the Chevy BelAir is dumb. I think the new Thunderbird is dumb. I think the Chevy SSR is dumb, except for its vertical folding hard top&#151;which is brilliant. Another big problem (for me) is that many of these cars celebrate an automotive era (the 50's -'80s) that I would just as soon forget.

    The only other retros other than the Prowler, that I like, is the PT Cruiser, because&#151;even though it looks like a '37 Ford bread van&#151;it has moved the automotive state-of-the-art forward a notch or two. besides looking cool, it's a very practical and useful vehicle, unlike most of the others I've mentioned. I also like the the Audi TT and the Beatle, only because they are so neat looking. The styling is so outrageously good, that in my mind, it overrides whatever other faults they may have.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I tend to disagree. Ford needed a "feel good" car, and the T-bird provides that. The ads are very clever, the one where the Lotus races past and the T-bird driver offers the girl a ride (i.e. 0-60 is not everything, grow up). It was the quickest sell-out in the Neimun-Marcus catalog ever.

    Not that I would buy one. The seats are really spongy and it's not my type of car.

    The Forty Nine could be produced for very little cost, since it's mostly parts-bin. Why not? Are Crown Victoria owner passionate? Hardly. Make it practical and roomy inside, but keep the retro styling outside.

    The SSR would sell in small numbers, like the Prowler did, and draw people into showrooms.

    I guess I allow a little leeway for stylish, trendy cars that might be seen as collectible later. It's something for the faithful fans of the marque to celebrate.

    It may not bring in new buyers, and that may be the point you are making. But I think that's OK for low volume niche cars.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Gotta disagree, the neon hatchback is useless! It can't tow, it can barely hold 4 adults...and these people paying over MSRP are all on crack!

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Not any more, now I've seen them advertised for $16k. I bet the guy that paid $25k feels pretty stupid right now, with $10k or more deprecitation in the first year.

    But they are functional for small families, and CR actually rates them as reliable (I think the only Chrysler product that is).

    Give is the SRT turbo 205hp engine, and AWD, and price it at $20k max, and it's a good value.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Perhaps, but I was never real fond of the original T-bird either. To me it screams all the wrong signals. It's a classic '50s way-too-long-2-seater; not something I would want to celebrate. With few exceptions, there is little of the 1950's I want to remember, in terms of cars. The new T-bird invokes bad automotive memories for me.

    Mike, the PT Cruiser was never mean to tow. Have you sat in one? There's plenty of room for four people. I just think it's a neat "twist" on the traditional small automobile.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Yep and give me an awd caddy at 30k and it's a good value! :)

    I dunno, I've sat in the PTcrapper, and it's not that roomy. I'm all for function, not "neat" :) And FWD in a vanish type vehicle is ridiculous

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    it's very roomy, and boxy&#151;a feature you've always liked.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Surely you jest. It's an egg, there is almost no room behind the rear seats, and it's built on a neon platform. :) Hey if people like it that's ok, but it is neither functional nor performance oriented IMHO. For nearly the same $ I'd buy a chrysler mini-van over the PT. It gives you far more functionality at the same price.

    -mike
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