Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Nope! Lose the logo!. Besides, I hate Subaru's logo, always have. I like the grille just the way it is. The stark and (almost) blank grille looks much more aggressive—and mysterious.

    It reminds me somewhat of what some Mercedes owners do, by removing the model/engine ID badge from the rear trunk, and leaving it blank—therefore making one wonder what kind of engine the Benz has under the hood. I like that.

    I can live without the spoiler though.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I don't think the Blitzen and the WRX would compete for sales at all. They're two different markets: The WRX is a bare-fisted street fighter, whereas the Blitzen would offer a bit more in terms of refinement, luxury and comfort, besides the speed; which would justify a $30K price tag.

    To use a BMW analogy, think of the WRX as the M-3, and the Blitzen as the M-5. Similar, yet very different markets.

    Bob
  • hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    in the weekly automotive section of the local fishwrap... a very favorable impression... here's the link - hope it works:

    http://www.spokesmanreview.com/news-story.asp?date=011301&ID=s907715

    It's an abbreviated version of the article, darn it... but the rest of it was equally favorable.

    Cheers!
    Paul
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    You're right. The B4 and WRX serve very different markets. For one, the B4 doesn't have very quick 0-60 times. Click here for a short summary on the B4 from DRIVE in Australia. They talk about how the two vary in their offerings. They also mention "Where you expect the B4's engine to be quicker than that of a WRX and without that car's turbo lag, it isn't.".

    While the spoiler is kind of funky, I still like it's understated look -- just love sleepers!

    Ken
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    Ken can probably verify this...in Germany, most MBzs and BMWs are debadged. It's actually an option directly from the factory. Kind of interesting, isn't it? It's the exact opposite of what we have here! There was a thread on our M-class mailing list as to the reasons why the Europeans do this. If you're interested, click here.

    How about we settle for an H6 GT sedan and wagon with automanuals or true stick shifts for now? :-)

    Ken, the reason why I don't like the rear spoiler for the B4 sedan is because of that strange lowered section in the middle. That just looks too funky for me!


    Drew
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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Thanks for the links.

    Ken- If I'm not mistaken, even though the B4 has twin turbos, I believe it uses a SOHC version of the 2.0 H-4, not the DOHC version that the WRX gets.

    I'm suggesting, however, that they drop the WRX engine in the Blitzen, and not use the twin turbo. Even so, you can still expect the WRX to be quicker, because it will weigh less.

    Drew- I'll settle for anything that will move the Legacy performance envelope forward.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    FYI: I just read in this week's issue of AutoWeek, that later this year, MB will officially begin importing the G-Wagon to the USA. DC is now in the process of buying that company in New Mexico that, to date, has been the sole importer of that vehicle.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    This is an interesting topic. I had read, years ago, something to the effect mentioned in one of those links—regarding "not trying to show how much money you spent on the vehicle," as to being the main motivation behind this.

    I sure wish Subaru would remove (from the factory) some of the badges—like "AWD." To me the more badging you have on a car, the uglier it looks. Keep the badging to an absolute minimum.

    Bob
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    Remove the AWD badge? Not for me! I like it a lot, same with the VDC badges! :-) Heck, I even added a 4-matic badge to my ML's tailgate. That was mainly for symmetry though. The back looked unbalance with only the "ML320" on the left side. Notice that I also added chrome trim around the taillamps for a Jaguar-ish look. Too much Silver looked boring to me and the chrome added something (albeit very subtle) the break up the monotony. I left the black license plate frame as is, for one's eyes to "anchor" on. What would be your professional graphic designer opinion on all this? ;-)

    Yes, Autoweek quoted the head of MB saying that they would start officially selling the G-wagens in the US (they're going to buy GwagenUSA, formerly known as Europa International). No doubt this will significantly reduce the cost of the vehicle, something like $150K right now, I think.

    On another note, I wonder what would happen if they turbocharge or supercharge the H6. Whee!


    Drew
    Host
    Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Yeah, I agree, sometimes the car manufacturers overdo the badges. But, the AWD badge on our Sube's are very important. It puts any liability on the towing company if they were to not use a flatbed. It's there for your benefit - even though everyone should know by now that Subaru's are AWD!

    Hmmm, a Legacy sedan with a twin turbo H6 and manumatic.......move over TL type S, you've got company. And it probably could be done for less than $30k! What a bargain! SOA - are you listening?

    -brian/subearu
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Drew -- Haven't heard of a "debadging" option in Japan. Interestingly, the Subarus over there have the model name in large letters (ie. across the rear hatch) and "Subaru" in small letters -- opposite of how the US spec models come.

    H6 GT? I'd love to see one with VDC and a sport suspension package!

    Bob -- Yup, sure enough, the B4 uses a 2.0 DOHC engine.

    Ken
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well iirc the med duty GMC trucks (like box trucks/cube trucks) are basically Isuzu trucks re-badged as GMCs. With the Axiom, the new Isuzu SUV sitting squarely between the Rodeo and the Trooper, and the Trooper's 10 year old body, most Isuzu enthusiasts are pretty sure that the next Trooper will be quite a bit larger. The new trooper will be an Isuzu design, and the new Rodeo will likely be some variation on the blazer/jimmy platform. I've also read that the 6.6 is in fact an Isuzu engine, but no docs to back it up. When they interviewed the Isuzu America Pres, he said by 2003 there will be a diesel Isuzu SUV in the US. They could use the 3.0 or 3.2l Turbo Diesel that is offered on Troopers outside the US. We are figuring the new trooper will be sequoia esque, hopefully with an isuzu DOHC V8 :)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Drew- As a graphic designer, I have to disagree. I prefer subtlety and simplicity in my design. I don't like being hit over the head with extraneous badging. The fewer badges the better, in my opinion.

    I much prefer the look expressed by the Europeans: VW, BMW, MB, Volvo, Saab; all of which maximize the most out of the fewest badges. To me, that's good design.

    Ken- I think you mean SOHC.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    without a doubt, is dealer badging—whether it is some ugly badge/decal, or a license plate frame.

    It's pure free advertising. It is always ugly. I hate it. I have in the past told dealers that I will not accept a new vehicle with that crap on there.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Well it looks like we can now add the Toyota Highlander into the mix when discussing Outback H-6 competitors. They're priced about the same when comparably equipped. The Highlander appears to be much roomier, and can be had with a 3500 # towing package.

    Dealers should be getting them any day now.

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Isn't the Highlander truly an SUV (or marketed as such)? The Outback is not an SUV - it's a wagon. The Outback H6 wouldn't be considered by someone looking at a Highlander, at least I think they wouldn't!

    Maybe if the Forester had the H6, then it could compete with the Highlander. Subaru markets the Forester as an SUV.

    -brian/subearu
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the Highlander is a SUV-hybrid, but I think it's close enough in features and price that many people might cross-shop it with the Outback H-6.

    It's clearly larger than the Forester. In fact, it's quite a bit larger (taller, longer wheelbase, roomier inside) than the Outback too. I still think a lot of H-6 customers will look at it though. My gut feeling is more H-6 customers would look at the Highlander before looking at the Passat 4-Motion. Why? Because it is Japanese, and there is a certain comfort level with Japanese cars, that is missing with European cars.

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Ok, ok; maybe if there was a larger Forester H6, they'd be equals. I don't think the Outback H6 can compete successfully with the Highlander. It's bigger, roomier, more powerful, and can tow more.

    Edmunds has the Highlander listed as a Sport Utility/Wagon (class/bodystyle). The Outback H6's are listed as Wagon/Wagon. The Forester is listed as Mini-Sport Utility/Wagon.

    It also listed the competitors of the Highlander as follows: Ford Escape, Hyundai Santa Fe, Mazda Tribute, Suzuki Grand Viatra XL-7. The Outback VDC has the Escape/Tribute, Grand Viatra, and the Nissan Xterra. The LL Bean has the Escape/Tribute, Honda CRV, and the Toyota RAV4. The Forester has the Chevy Tracker, CRV, RAV4, and Grand Viatra.

    -Brian
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob,

    The B4 uses a DOHC 2.0. Look on the middle following page under the column "specifications":

    http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/blitzen/b4/b4_f.htm

    Ken
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The B4 has the same 2.0l DOHC engine that goes in the WRX. It gets a Twin Turbo though instead of a Single Turbo IIRC. I personally like DOHC much better. The SVX was a DOHC, and the H6 is a DOHC.

    -mike
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    I'm glad that Subaru is keeping the WRX badge the way it is. I was afraid they would slap a giant
    "T U R B O" badge on it. I go for subtlety as well.
    Dennis
    '97 2.2L Subaru Impreza Outback Sport Wagon :)
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I didn't say they were equals, just that I think there will be many cross-shopping both vehicles. I know I would be.

    Ken, Mike- Opps! Sorry for my mistake. I think the last-generation twin-turbo was a SOHC unit, so I assumed this was still the case. BTW, I can't find "DOHC" listed on that site page. Maybe it's just that the Japanese/English is showing up differently on my screen, than yours??

    I agree. DOHC is better.

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    I think being a Subaru owner might bias one to cross-shop them! We might think that the Subaru is clearly the best choice, but for Joe Consumer, bigger is always better (engine, room, towing, etc.). It's that whole apples to oranges thing again.

    I guess I don't think that someone looking at a Highlander would even consider the H6 Outback. I just can't see it. You could be right though - maybe I just don't want to believe it.

    I'll be heading out to the Chicago Auto Show next month (the Milwaukee show just doesn't compare). I'll make sure I take a look at the Highlander.

    -Brian
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    If you were considering a Highlander, what, if any other vehicles, might you consider?

    The Highlander falls right in between the true SUVs (4Runner, Grand Cherokee, Explorer, etc.) and the the AWD wagons (H-6 Outback and Passat 4-Motion). At the moment, there is no real direct competitor, except for perhaps the pricier RX 300, which it's based upon.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well as most of you know, I cross shopped and went from a 2000 Legacy GT Wagon to an Isuzu Trooper LS w/moonroof. Mostly cause when it came down to it, for $3.5K more, I got a bigger, more powerful, longer warrantied vehicle with a bunch of extra options that weren't even available on the GT. So whoever said that they are gonna cross shop it is probably 100% correct.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    You make my point perfectly. Even though we may have a pretty good idea of what vehicle we want, most of us do look at other alternatives, even if they may not be directly competitive.

    I think that will be the case of the Highlander and H-6 Outback. They offer many similar features, yet they are distinctly different types of vehicles.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    on the Highlander? IIRC Toyotas are usually far more expensive than they are worth.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Roughly $29K to around $33K loaded, for the AWD V6 versions. Again, right in the H-6 ball park.

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Mike: Agreed.

    Bob: Also agreed. As far as comparisons, maybe a Jeep Liberty (when it comes out). I ruled out the Escape/Tribute due to its vast recall history.

    -Brian
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    posed that question (would you consider a H-6 Outback too) over in the Toyota Highlander forum, in the SUV area. The vehicles most often mentioned are the RX 300 and the MDX as also being considered. So far nobody's mentioned Subaru. Maybe now that I've posed that question, that will change? The feedback should be interesting.

    Bob
  • tshadletshadle Member Posts: 38
    Bob,
    I read your posts in both forums.

    Juice, Drew,
    What do you think of this Highlander in comparison to the VDC? It looks like Toyota changed one letter (to VSC).
    Also the Toyota website makes it sound as if it has the fulltime 4WD like the Explorers have. Elsewhere I've read it has AWD like Subarus.
    What is this thing?
    Tom
  • dsackmandsackman Member Posts: 145
    is a RX300 in Toyota clothes. It is a front wheel drive floorpan from the Camry with a higher body and 4/AWD. Not sure whether it has the system from the RAV4 or from the Land Cruiser. Not bad at all for the price. It is well described on the Toyota web site (www.toyota.com). The car is built in Japan and will have Toyota quality.

    It seems as if Toyota is not fleecing everybody with "upgrades". You can actually get a reasonable car for $30,000. It is however still a high tipety-rollover car.

    Some of the features I like are the front captains chairs and the ability to walk through between the seats. It is however a big car, about the size of a Jeep Grand "Cherrykee" or the "Exploder". It does not seem to be meant for serious off-roading. That is still left to the 4-Runner.
    This could be a contender to the VDC and more.

    Daniel
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    has the same V6 (opt.) and AWD (again, opt.) as does the RX 300. From what I've read, it seems early AWD models are packed with upgrades, and are priced anywhere from $30K all the way to near $35K.

    Bob
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    No comparison. The Highlander is an immortal and carries a big [non-permissible content removed] sword which can chop the head of the VDC in one clean swipe. After killing the VDC, the Highlander will absorb it's energy while lightning crackles around it. No comparison guys. There Can Only Be One!!! ;-)
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Ah, but in the series, there are many immortals...
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The Highlander always wins, or else the show would end!

    -mike
  • theobtheob Member Posts: 148
    Just to weigh in a little on this discussion. I've ordered a VDC. 4+ more weeks to delivery. I wanted a more car-like behavior. We have an '86 4Runner for serious off-roading and it has been one of the best vehicles ever built.

    I just checked the "build-your-own" feature on the Toyota web site. For a comparably equipped (if you can compare the stereos and the stability / dynamics control???), the Highlander comes out at about $1k more MSRP.

    FWIW,
    Theo
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I just drove a new Highlander... and I gotta tell ya'—I'm impressed!

    The one I drove was a Limited (no leather—which I prefer), 3.0, and AWD. It also had a 3500# tow-prep package; full-size, alloy-wheel mounted spare; and a pretty large (not large as the Forester's; but larger than most) moonroof. It stickered a bit over $32K. It was equipped just about the way I would order one.

    Compared to the Outback H-6:

    Performance
    Both have 3.0 6-cylinder engines, with the Highlander having a bit more horsepower, at 220. The Highlander V-6 felt much more responsive, right off the bat. The somewhat sluggish low-speed response of the Outback H-6, was made even more apparent by the "spunky" nature of the Highlander engine.

    Handling
    The Outback has an edge here. Being closer to the ground, it feels a bit sportier. The Highlander feels every bit as tall as it is, although it too is a good handler.

    Interior
    From a practical standpoint, the Highlander is the hands-down winner here. It's much roomier, has reclining rear backs, and a roomier trunk. It has 4 rear cupholders—2 in each rear door—an excellent feature.

    The Highlander's moonroof has an auto-open feature (like my Explorer), and is not at all like that goofy dual-moonroof found on Outbacks.

    I don't like the Highlander's foot operated emergency brake. I much prefer the Outback's centered "hand" brake.

    The controls and instruments on both the Highlander and Outback are excellent. I'd call this draw.

    Important details for me
    The Highlander has a full-size spare, and a 3500# towing capacity.

    Good news (hopefully) for H-6 fans
    Once word gets out about the Highlander, and supplies begin to meet the demand, I would think (hope) H-6 prices will drop.

    Bottom Line
    If I were in the market right now (which I'm not), the Highlander would be my clear choice. Although, be prepared to pay full sticker for some time to come. This is going to be a huge seller for Toyota.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The one thing I hate, absolutely detest, about the RX, and which the Highlander inherited, is the goofy looking shifter sticking out of the dash. As fine a vehicle as it is, I just could not get over that. Call me fickle, it just looks STOOPID!

    Other than that, it looks like a winner. The RAV4 won't get a V6, and the 4Runner isn't as car-like, so people are going to line up to buy these and it will quickly become Toyota's best selling SUV. Isn't it supposed to get 3 rows later?

    I think people will cross-shop the 4Runner, Montero Sport (especially the upcoming one), Pathfinder, Axiom, Trooper, high-end Rodeos, MDX and the Honda version of that. In other words, other Japanese mid-size SUVs.

    I believe it uses a center viscous coupling, so it's similar to the LL Bean 5 speed's AWD. The VDC aims higher.

    Love that Blitzen wagon. My biggest problem would be justifying getting rid of something we own now. They're all reliable and paid off!

    Another problem - the only way I could justify a new vehicle would be to get more seats, and that would point me to the MDX, Sequioa, XL7, Tahoe, Expedition, etc. An Isuzu option would be nice, paisan, given the others are high-priced and the Suzuki is underpowered.

    Hey, that front helical LSD sounds cool. What does "helical" mean?

    I debadged my Forester a bit too. The AWD stickers from the windows are gone (there is still one on the tailgate), as is the dealer label.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I really don't mind the gear shift location on the Highlander/RX 300. In fact, I kind of like it. I certainly prefer it to a column shifter, like that found on my Explorer, and MDX; and... it allows a walk-through; that would be difficult, if not impossible with a floor mounted unit. It may look a bit silly at first, but it does makes sense from a functional standpoint. Like many "new" things, it will take some getting used to.

    Not sure if a third seat will be coming. It would be nice if it did.

    It does use a viscous coupling, but I think(?) a VDC-type of control is also available as an option.

    I've been lurking over at the Highlander forum recently, and so far the Subaru H-6 has not part of the discussion, even though a few of us Subies have mentioned it. I do think anybody considering a Highlander (or H-6) would be doing themselves a disservice not to consider the other.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the walk-through is over-rated.

    When would you really use it? While the vehicle is in motion? Dangerous. When you stop? Just get out, then. And I have a child, too.

    I think some Alfas had that, and I didn't like it then either.

    Give me a floor mounted MANUAL shifter, with a normal hand brake, any day.

    Yup, LSD or traction/stability control. Guess the RX just got that option, too.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I too think it's overrated, but I guess some folks like it. When you're sitting in the driver's seat, the shifter does fall pretty much into hand, just like that of a good floor shifter. I do wish it had a hand brake however.

    I believe stability control is now standard on the RX 300. Speaking of which... when the RX 300 first came out, I wasn't at all impressed with its power. The new Highlander, is bigger, has the same engine, yet feels quicker. Go figure.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe lower expectations?

    The Highlander costs $10 grand less. I'm sure that lets you grade it on a curve.

    -juice
  • hammersleyhammersley Member Posts: 684
    Helical: of or shaped like a helix. Okay, fine....

    Helix: A three-dimensional curve that lies on a cylinder or cone and cuts the elements at a constant angle.

    So... short answer is still...
    "Beats the heck outta me"...

    Saved you a trip to the dictionary, anyway... :)

    Cheers!
    Paul
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Just a cool name to your basic LSD?

    -juice
  • dannykadannyka Member Posts: 115
    Late October of '99, when my son was still a wee baby, my family was driving through Utah on the way to California (about 10pm). Well, as babies do, this one became "odoriferous". So we had to stop to change diapers. Unfortunately, since it was a rear facing seat, I had to get out of the nice warm car to get to the baby seat in the back. And of course, being late at night, in the mountains, in October -- IT WAS COLD! I think that right there makes a case for walk-throughs -- at least for me. Also, if it happens to be raining or snowing, and for some reason you need something out of the back, instead of getting out to open the hatch...

    Just my $.02.

    -Dan
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting. We schedule stops every 2 hours to stretch and change her, so we've never needed to make an unscheduled, uh, diaper break.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    to some people, as every mini-van still has a walk-through feature. I guess, if they weren't a worthwhile feature, they would have disappeared from the mini-van scene long ago.

    Bob
  • dannykadannyka Member Posts: 115
    does it then become a jacked-up-AWD-minivan? If I "lift" an AWD Caravan, does it become a(n) SUV?

    Just wonderin'... :-)

    -Dan
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If you look at the back of a Durango, it basically looks like a lifted AWD Caravan!

    -mike
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