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Comments
anyways if you want rear seat room. Try a saturn L sedan or wagon.
http://www.audiworld.com/news/00/newa4/content3.shtml
Juice - check out your response to post #57 in Subaru Legacy/Outback VI "VDC and Snow"(Man, did I have to HUNT for this!)
"Subaru says the traction control system is less invasive than most, allowing the AWD to work first, and only then will it interfere."
I hope you're right. Maybe Patti can get some info on VDC performance on sand.
Tom
I like the look of the Passat, though I like the old one just as much. The nose looks a little droopy, but not ugly. The rear lights look odd, but I'll get used to it.
I guess I didn't finish reading Edmunds' coverage, Drew. 180hp sounds good in such a light vehicle. Still has that torsion beam (non-independent) rear end, though.
Tom: that info came from the early press releases. I hope so, too.
-juice
Caroline
The same thing happened to the 2000 Legacy and Outback.
-Colin
The current 2.5l (Phase II) is SOHC, which means it has one camshaft per bank of cylinders, or 2 total with the boxer configuration. That cam controls both intake and exhaust valves.
The turbos and older 2.5l engines (Phase I) are DOHC. They have two camshafts per bank of cylinders, or 4 cams total. One cam controls the intake valves, the other the exhaust valves.
The DOHC design typically allows for more precise valve control, higher redlines, and good peak horsepower.
SOHC is simpler, cheaper, and makes its power lower in the rev range.
Do you need AWD? Well, what kind of weather do you drive in? Any dirt or gravel trails? FWD is adequate for most people, AWD is just sweet, though.
-juice
Re: WMarton Jan 23, 2001 8:47am
> ..my height adjustable rear-view mirror.. Does anyone else have this pet peeve or am I only one?
Bill, its one of my many human factors engineering peeves. Way behind the cup holder though. Seriously, a height adjustable rear-view mirror is a good safety feature and why I made the joke. Automotive ergonomics have much room for improvement. The good news is these features will, once produced in economies of scale, make automobiles more usable for those with some types of disabilities, e.g., range of motion.
The adjustable pedals in the Ford Taurus for those with *gasp* outlier leg dimensions are another good Ford idea. (limit discussion to Ford design, not implementation) Bill, cost accounting [note to Graham: this is your segue] also affects design issues like your height adjustable mirror, as would other adjustable vs. fixed components, e.g., the driver's seat. Don't laugh, the Model T didn't have airbags either. Ergonomics -- think about when we started and where we are.
..Mike
..Mike
I'll let you know how it goes as soon as I try it.
Thanks,
Patti
Tom
I can't seem to find a curb weight for the new OBS, but the WRX wagon weighs 3165 lbs, so let's estimate about 3000 lbs for the OBS.
So we'd have:
2001 OBS = 2835 lbs / 142 hp = 20.0 lbs/hp
2002 OBS = 3000 lbs / 165 hp = 18.2 lbs/hp
Which is about a 10% improvement. Not bad. Other factors like gearing come into play, but let's assume those will be similar.
Even if the OBS weighs as much as the WRX wagon does, it's still only carrying 19 lbs/hp or so, still a 5% improvement in the power/weight ratio.
-juice
However if it is true-- Subaru's wet curb weights are very accurate, unlike some other brands-- then a 2002 2.5RS would handle much better thanks to the vastly improved chassis.
-Colin
"the traction-control system (which limits wheel spin by braking wheels individually or adjusting braking pressure - can't be turned off) didn't allow us to move forward because one of the front wheels kept spinning. The poor salesman didn't even mind helping to push the vehicle out!"
This was in a snow situation.
Tom
That's the 2nd complaint of the Highlander's traction. The other was that review.
Maybe they should hire Subaru engineers!
-juice
I don't doubt it considering it has less accessories compared to the WRX. So 100lbs less is quite believeble.
VTD may be a heavier unit
Less sound deadening material (which is pretty heavy)
no turbo unit and associated piping
lighter seats
lighter suspension components
-mike
-juice
-Frank P.
Remember the Da-da-da commercial? It came out just before the New Beetle did, and brought attention to VW even though its products were ancient and outdated.
I'm not kidding - they won all kinds of awards from Advertising Age, which rarely awards the auto industry at all.
The timing was perfect. The New Beetle came out, drawing crowds to the dealers. Then the new Golf, Jetta, and Passat, once those folks realized the Beetle wasn't very practical.
Note that their prices are much higher than preceeding models, though sales are up (sounds like Subaru, no?).
Those higher prices positioned VW as a higher-priced alternative to the Hondas and Toyotas of the world. So people started seeing VW as upscale - you pay more and get a little more too.
The catch with Subaru is that VW had built a better bridge. Passat V6 GLXs were already priced in the high 20's, so 30k for the 4Motion didn't seem so bad.
Even Outback Limiteds like my dad's cost only $25k, and that's about as high as Subaru had gone (since the SVX). So $32k for a VDC seemed like a huge jump, even though in the real world you can get an LL Bean for about $2k more than my dad paid.
-juice
Bob
cliffy1 "TOYOTA HIGHLANDER SUV" Jan 24, 2001 10:44am
Hey Patti, WDYT? Will I be let down or shall we take some video to prove that the VTD works as advertised?
Theo
-juice
The only specs I can find say the 2001 Outbacks have the Limited Slip only in the rear axle. Why and whether this makes a difference I have no idea.
Bob - Thanks for the link.
Theo - Waiting on test results.
Thanks,
Tom
I think it does have a limited slip center diffy, but I think they allow it to act before the traction control kicks in.
-juice
Patti - To really test the VDC in sand, try to take it to the beach. You can go to Island Beach State Park and get a 3 day pass for $25. I'm sure you could convince your management to let you test it. :-) Then again, you're closer to the Pine Barrens.
Dennis
In any vehicle, driving in the sand it messy. Your undercarriage will get filthy with salt and sand, so make sure you wash it thoroughly.
I had to do that twice!
-juice
In the case of the VDC wagon, isn't it the planetary gears of the VTD AWD system that 'act' as the limited slip center differential? Same thing for the Active AWD system with it's clutch pack. With our MT vehicles, it's the viscous coupling that acts as the center LSD.
Ken
-Frank P.
Frank - Soobs already do. Even my '98 Forester has de-powered bags.
-juice
So, there's my opinion. I'll see if I can get a more technical explanation soon!
Thanks.
Patti
Sometimes a real world spin (poor choice of words perhaps?) tells you more than any brochure.
-juice
-mike
Ken—do you have any idea if they differ mechanically? I think(?) this latest version comes only with the automatic(?).
Bob
http://www.subaru.co.jp/
This one's kind of cool! It's a Legacy GT Limited Touring Wagon:
http://202.217.201.209/showroom/leg_gtl/
It's not quite as loaded as the RSK, but it has:
VTD w/rear LSD
4EAT (no manual -- whassup with that?)
2.0 DOHC twin stage Turbo (260ps@6000, 32.5N-m@5000)
Ken
SVX...
-mike
The RX300's and Highlander's viscous coupling is still open and without the traction control system, all of the power could leak out to one axle. MB showed this at their Powertrip event last year on the ramp test (simulating a slippery boat launch or driveway). The AWD RX300 got stuck at the bottom of the ramp since it simply spun its front wheels when they were on the rollers and absolutely no power went to the rear wheels.
To me, It's quite obvious what happened. This particular person who went on the test drive simply ventured to far into the snow. The traction control system did work, braking the slipping wheels. However, the one wheel (that was spinning) simply did not have enough power or traction to pull the vehicle out of the deep snow. THAT is why it was stuck. This is also where the off switch comes in handy. By deactivating the system (or at least most of its functionality), one can spin all four wheels at at least try to power one's way out of the snow by rocking back and forth. On a related note, I still think Subaru should consider adding an off switch for these situations on snow/sand just in case. IMHO, Toyota's 4 wheel traction control system does not seem to be quite as good as the MB/Continental-Teves system.
Drew
Host
Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
..Mike
..Mike
Mike, the sand was about 10"?? inches deep, and soft. After the "mudder" drive and into the sand was when the VDC light came on. We went from a dead stop into a tight turn, dead stop straight, dead stop reverse, etc. We tried every different method we could think of. I was expecting to come across something that bogged it down, but it just didn't happen. The temps. were above freezing so I couldn't take it on some ice or deep snow to compare, but maybe next time we get some foul weather, I'll try that.
Thanks!
Patti
-mike
Mike - excellent questions.
Tom
FrankMc, Thanks, thought WMarton and I were the only ones. How ya been?
Patti, sounds like your job isn't much fun. Sorry to hear that.
Tom, agreed. Patti... ROCKS! (oops)
Drew, I think I can do join tonight. 5-6pm PT = 8-9pm ET. 8pm ET is tight but I'll get the kids to bed on time and join. Getting them to bed is harder than debugging a multi-threaded C++ app. You'll have a Emunds_Moderator handle? If so and possible, please note that you're Drew or something in the profile. Dana forgets/can't do that and it hurts my Lilliputian brain.
..Mike
..Mike
Last night I test drove a Toyota Highlander V6 and immediately went to test drive a Bean-Mobile (no VDC available). My back was killing me. Good time for a test drive.
First, my wife and daughter prefer the HL because of the extra room & seating. It's like a minivan with an SUV body. My wife loved the passenger seat. I thought the driver's seat felt hard. The seats were cloth. The stereo sounded great and the climate control worked well. The moonroof is huge.
The HL pulled out from a stop with plenty of power. It cornered like the tall SUV it is and though it held the road well you could feel it tilt when pushed.
The best way I can describe the ride is the way Healey of USA Today described it - "busy". As soon as we hit a stretch of road with expansion joints you could feel a series of high frequency bounces or vibrations that in the hard seat really bothered my back. On the highway the HL was smooth & quiet w/plenty of power. It absorbed big bumps well.
The sales people were friendly, courteous & not pushy.
The LLB felt like the sporty car it is with enough room but just enough. The moonroofs are just big enough to see out. I liked the climate control but the stereo seemed chincy when pushed.
The leather seat was comfortable and got so hot after a while I had to turn it off. My wife thought the passenger seat sat too low. There's no reason to have split rear seat backs w/the traditional bench seat. Subaru needs to split that seat as well.
The H6 pulled out with even more power than the HL I guess because of the lighter weight. It handled & cornered beautifully. I liked the gated shifter.
You could feel bumps in the road. In fact our voices would vibrate as we talked but for some reason the LLB absorbed the bumps better & didn't bother my back as much. I think I'd rather have the H6 on a long drive. I know others haven't felt that way but I don't know if they had the leather seats. On the highway it was powerful, quiet & smooth w/no vibrations over expansion joints.
When we got to the Subaru dealer the salesman acted like we were putting him out. He knew I had spoken to another salesman previously so he acted like we were being a pain when we asked for a test drive. He had to go inside a get a jumper kit to get the LLB started. The Subaru salespeople I've dealt with seem like they couldn't care less whether they sell these cars or not. I've had a VDC on order for almost 5 months from the next closest dealer. Time to shop elsewhere.
Bottom line - Neither car was as jarring as the Pathfinder we're driving now. Even though my wife likes the utilitarian HL w/it's extra room I'm ready for the car-like H6 for every day driving. The bouncy hard seats in the HL killed my back.
Tom
Tom -- sorry to hear about your Subaru ordering and dealer test-drive experience. Wish that Subaru could get strong enough that it could take on some of these dumb dealerships. We deal with a suburban St. Louts independent dealer(he has one store, sells primarily Subaru plus Isuzu and Suzuki) and he's been great through the years. Whenever anyone asks why I'm a total Subaru disciple, I tell em simply -- great car and a really good dealership to work with. As I've mentioned before here, I also had a BMW for three years (company lease) and the quality of Subaru service far exceeded the Beemer dealers. Unfortunately, to my knowledge, our Subaru dealer has not launched any kind of serious interned sales effort yet.
Thanks much for your Highlander/H6 compare. I will admit the AL caught my eye when it started popping up on dealer lots. The more I read and hear, the more convinced than ever I am about the choice of the DC. The best news in your comments, from my wife's perspective, is that the bun warmers got so hot you had to turn them off.
Amen. Oddly, Australia and IIRC New Zealand get the split squab/base and split back. Cost cutting for North America? Don't know. Patti, another request?
Tom, Bob, thanks for your reports -- you guys are the trailblazers. Hats off!
Ken, At Thursday's chat, you rekindled my hope for a turbocharged MT Legacy platform so I poked around SoJ. Found this nifty Equipment & Specificatios table; note two pull-downs in upper right. I don't have a specific question for you; just thought I'd toss it out in case you hadn't seen it.
The SoJ site has significantly more accessible information and less content-free eye candy than the SoA site. The New Zealand (thanks WDB) and Australian sites, though in English, also lack the technical depth of SoJ.
/rant on
Seems like each country likes to re-invent the entire website.
/jest on
Never seen the IT group of a large regional company re-invent the wheel or develop fiefdoms, much less an international one; how odd.
/jest off
Yes, I'm ignoring the minor model name differences and feature quirks but much is applicable to all countries. It's a shame it's not re-used.
/rant off
Or translated to English.
So the 2.0l twin-turbo Legacy GT-B E-tune wagon, model GF-BH5, is available with 5MT. Nifty. Any other goodies tucked away in the tables accessible from the pull-downs? Now if this makes it to North America, I'll be one happy camper. Make it so, Number One.
..Mike
..Mike
Mike- Thanks for the SOJ link, but they're... USELESS!
Will we ever get a "English" version of the SOJ site?
As more and more people access the Internet, you would think SOJ would offer a direct English translation of their site—if for no other reason that English is the number one "World" language.
Subaru of Canada offers their site in both English and French. So, come on SOJ—get with the program!
Bob
The webpage you posted is exactly the one I was using to look up specs during the chat. If you could read Japanese ;-) , you'll notice that each of the two pull downs give you subcategories. For example, the "Equipment" pull down translates to:
4WD System
Suspension
Lighting
Controls
Audio
Seats
Interior
Exterior
Saftey Features
Table of options
The "Specifications" pull down shows:
Dimensions & weight
Turning Radius/Fuel Economy
Steering
Suspension
Brakes
Engine
Gearing
Diagrams
Low Emissions Compliance
Happy surfin'!
Ken