Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Had a pow-wow with my dealer this morning.
    The impreza line up in Canada for 2002:

    3 wagons:

    TS Wagon ~ 23000
    Outback Sport ~ 27000
    WRX Wagon ~ 35000

    2 sedans:

    RS Sedan ~ 29000
    WRX ~ 34000

    They have sold 1 WRX already (sight unseen), to a 35-year old accountant, who is a woman. That surprised me a little, because its bringing in a different market than I expected.

    They are expecting delivery of the WRXs in April.

    Other news:
    Outback Sedan (in Canada) will only come with a H6 for the coming model year.
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    are you sure? the WRX sedanis 34k while the wagon is 35k? Check www.subaru.ca please.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Not surprised about the H-6 Outback sedan. I was wondering if they will still offer the H-4 Outback sedan here in the States. I hope not. It would seem rather frivolous to have two Outback sedans. I'm also wondering if the '02 Outback H-6 sedan will get the VDC?? I also hope they drop the word "Limited" from the name.

    Bob
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    ramon: just passing on what the dealer gave me. they are estimate costs - not exact costs

    the models though, are exact. there will be 5 imprezas
  • kostamojen2kostamojen2 Member Posts: 284
    rsholland: Its the same yellow that was on the last gen WRX's in Japan...


    image


    amish: What does that RS sedan and TS wagon convert to in US dollars? target=_blank

  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    The exchange rate is around 1.45, however the prices are obviously fixed to some rate. My 2000 base 5sp Outback MSRP was 31,395. I don't know what the American equivalent was (21?).

    Maybe I should also note that the Canadian OB models also came with the winter package standard.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    of interest...

    Bob

    http://www.autonews.com/html/main/nada/subaru206.htm
  • miksmimiksmi Member Posts: 1,246
    >The company originally expected to sell 10,000 WRX models in the first year. Adcock said that has been raised to 12,000.

    >"There is only a finite number of WRXs," Hicks said. "We got them to take some production away from the Forester and put it into the WRX."

    Re-allocate production from Forester to WRX? Cool.

    ..Mike

    ..Mike

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You guys could just buy a WRX, and move the motor over to your current legacy GTs :) Or better yet, get in good with your dealer and buy the whole motor and associated parts and put it into your legacy :) Then you'd have a legacy w/ the turbo. Personally I'd go for the H6, much easier logistically.

    Or better yet turbo the 2.5l, that would yield more power than a turbo 2.0l :)

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Go with Paisan's suggestion. A 2.5l with a turbo kit ($2k on the group buy) will have more torque down low than the 2 liter. You could have a GT turbo for under $25k.

    Cut Forester production? Bad idea. They still sell every one, and I imagine the profit margin on the Forester is higher than on the WRX (given it's got to be an expensive engine to manufacture).

    Instead, just boost production of the WRX engine and put it in the Forester! Then send me one! :-)

    I don't like that yellow. If I'm buying yellow, I want it to be loud, and fit the car's character. That pastel does not.

    -juice
  • krisb2krisb2 Member Posts: 5
    Impreza prices have just recently shown up on this page:


    http://www.cars101.com/impreza.html#2002%20Impreza


    Scroll down a bit and the prices are at the top of the table that compares the models.


    As many of you know, this site is run by a car salesman, so hopefully its pretty accurate.


    Kris

  • thecatthecat Member Posts: 535
    The prices shown on the link from msg #810 above are a few hundred dollars high. Don't ask how I know ... but my sourse is quite reliable.

    hutch
  • barresa11barresa11 Member Posts: 277
    Cool. This is the site of my salesguy, Joe Spitz. He works for Carter Subaru in Seattle, about 5-miles from my house. Carter has been selling Soobs and only Soobs since 1976. In fact, they have the first Soob they ever sold in the showroom. It's a torquoise DL wagon (God, they were ugly then!). Anyhow, Carter has the second largest parts inventory in the Nation and their svc dept is open 7-days a week w/free loaners (like I'm ever going to need this). :-)

    Stephen
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    More regional pricing, or a dealer's estimate?

    We'll soon find out, anyway.

    -juice
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    I'm surprised that Carter is selling the Rex at MSRP though. In Flemington NJ you can get it for $600 over invoice. There's a dealer in upstate NY selling them at $400 over invoice.

    Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sweet! The best in the DC area is $1000 over or so.

    -juice
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    SUBARU IMPREZA WRX, 2.5 RS, 2.5 TS and Outback Sport
    2002MY MANUFACTURER'S SUGGESTED RETAIL PRICES
    (Current as of February 1, 2001)

    WRX Sedan 2002MY MSRP*
    -- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $23,995
    -- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $24,995

    WRX Sport Wagon
    -- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $23,495
    -- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $24,495

    2.5 RS Sedan
    -- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $18,995
    -- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $19,795

    2.5 TS Sport Wagon
    -- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $17,495
    -- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $18,295

    Outback Sport
    -- 5-Speed Manual Transmission $18,695
    -- 4-Speed Automatic Transmission $19,495
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Those are very competitive.

    The RS sedan is actually DOWN $500.

    The OBS is up $500, but you get the 2.5l engine and more space.

    The TS didn't have an equivalent model. It's $1100 more than the old L model, but it'll have a bigger engine and probably a lot more equipment.

    You guys check out the Chicago Auto Show coverage?

    New Ram: headlights ripped off BMW.
    HCD6: put that engine and tranny in the Santa Fe!
    Toyota RSC: by Pontiac?
    SVT Focus: 170hp, 17" rims, 6sp for $18K!

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The '02 RS lacks last year's sunroof, hence the lower price.

    I like the new Ram—a lot, especially the new Quad-Cab. It's the only 1/2 ton crew cab that's available with both a short and long bed.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Any link to the new ram?

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Mike- Here's a link to DC's media site. Loads of info and pixs. Knock yourself out. :)

    Bob

    http://us.media.daimlerchrysler.com/index_e.htm
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That's right, no sunroof. Still, get an even better power MOONroof for $900, and you're only $400 higher than last year, with all the extras to boot.

    -juice
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    the OBS new price is so dang high! It's the price of the current RS pretty much!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Except in wagon form, with the beefier suspension.

    -mike
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    the IMHO ugly wing.

    Ross
  • brekkebrekke Member Posts: 304
    plus fog lights and alloys are now standard on US OBS, that's over $500 in options right there

    Caroline
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    I am actually a little disappointed that the cheapest Impreza is so highly priced. Once upon-a-time it could actually compete with Civics...

    The other issue is that the 2.5 TS is so closely priced to the OBS ($1000 diff), why would anyone get the TS? (You get significantly more options with the OBS).
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I like the new wagon, wing and all. Then again the current one ain't bad.

    I'm sure they have the TS because not everyone wants that wagon-on-steroids look of the Outback line.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    They tried to compete with Civics, but I disagree that there should be a cheaper Impreza to be directly in that market. They can't beat the Civic, Focus, Corolla, etc. at their game so why waste money trying?

    -Colin
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    hmmm....maybe Q will like the TS wagon. It is cheaper than a WRX.... she still wants to see the Mini.

    She chopped off all her hair yesterday. Zowie, musta been almost 18 inches. I guess that's what turning 30 does to some people! :)

    TURBO a 2.5 for 2K?! Yer dreamin, dude. The 2.5 is a finicky plant for such things, as it is a bored out 2.2. Plus you have to uprate the clutch, fuel delivery, exhaust, and such. According to Rallispec, the real world cost of turbo-ing the 2.5 is around 5K on the low site, 7K on the WAY outside (tranny mounts, flywheel, cold air intake, driveshafts, etc)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Holy Cow!

    Lana always "threatens" to do that. I tell her I'm like Sampson and she's my Dalila.

    Depends on the level of boost you want. You can run 5psi with just the group buy kit. The thing is, people want 12psi, and they you're talking an entire new vehicle, basically.

    Rallispec does things right. I'm sure they over-engineer their mods, and their customers are the type that want lots of boost (that's why they go to them).

    -juice

    PS PiperCub is installing his group buy kit very soon. Parts are in. Let's keep our eyes out and pay a visit one of these days.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think a 2.5 turboed would totally kick a 2.0 turbo's butt. If you did it correctly, the extra cubes would yield far more torque and hp. But what would be real nice...

    3.0L H6 Turbo :) Now we are talkin!

    -mike
  • texsubarutexsubaru Member Posts: 242
    I suppose that you can argue that Civics might not the most logical competitor for Imprezas, but I'd certainly see the sportier versions of the Ford Focus as appealing to the same market as the Impreza, and I'd hope that Subaru would take that into account when calculating the Impreza pricing.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Focus is domestic. I think the Impy's main rivals will be other imports.

    Civic went soft and gave up the wish bones. So Civic and Integra owners are targets. Former Esclipse turbo owners, too. Maybe Celica owners. Sentra SE-R, too.

    -juice
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    stop at 3.0l? might as well go with a 5l....heck a turbo 7l! there comes a point where you want balance. a 2.0l is design for turbo and for most applications it works well. deliver good power reliably. For the 2.5l, you require alot of tuning to get it run properly. It will ultimately have more power if you do it properly by spending lots of cash and time into it. But not everyone can do that.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Porsche has a 3.0 l TT :)

    Also there is a 3.0l subaru engine already out there. It's a matter of time before it will have an aftermarket turbo. Heck a 3.3L H6 TT would be nice in an SVX...

    -mike
  • kostamojen2kostamojen2 Member Posts: 284
    The 2002 RS has no hood scoop, no alum hood, no spoiler, no moonroof, no foglights and no rear LSD... Personally, I see $1000+ worth of missing items there, not $500! But, aparently the RS will have the WRX's suspension, and thats what I want =) (I dont want, nor can afford a Turbo, and I care more about the handling than the speed)

    The Impreza doesnt really have any compeditors... The new Jetta Wagon would be the TS and OBS main compeditor, along with the Focus wagon, but neither of them are as versitile or as powerful (Dont even mention the Jetta 4motion with v6, thats like $22k+).
    As for sedans, the RS is still the cheapest AWD car on the market. And the new "more normal" styling will attrack Jetta, Civic, Focus, etc. buyers who might want more power or versitility or just a plain old better car ;)

    Personally, not to offend anyone, but, I wouldnt touch an OBS with a 10 foot stick... I CANT STAND that [insert flagrant remark here] gold trimming! Plus, I dont want the extra height and weight, that screws up handling AND speed!!! I'd buy the TS if I cant get an RS.

    The Focus DOES compete with the Import compact cars, thats what it was designed (and has done rather well mind you) to do. Too bad they had this whole reliability smear, or I would have gotten one already :P
  • silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    I owned a 2000 ZX3 that recently went to my fiancee. All of the recall items have dealt with silly things that didn't seem to affect the car one way or the other - mostly it was the nuisance factor of dealing with them that made some people grumble, and of course the media has a field day with any problems related to Ford. I have an order in for a WRX, but I'm starting to cool slightly. I don't really need AWD where I live and the thought of owning a turbo-ed car is giving me second thoughts. I may wait and look at an RS sedan, or possibly wait until later in the fall when the SVT Focus arrives. 170HP and a Getrag six-speed would be big fun in that car - it has a terrific chassis. I'm very much from the school that feels "it's more fun to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow" :)
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    It's not the looks of the OBS that sell it. In terms of specs, it adds a whole load of extras over the TS for just $1000 more. For example: 16" alloys compared to 15" steel rims on the TS. Heated seats. Extra power outlets. Roof rack with crossbars. [and there's more] Btw - the height difference is only 5 mm... not 2 inches, not exactly going to drastically change handling.

    And I would disagree with the remark that Subaru does not need to compete with Civics / Proteges / Focii. The auto business is about market share and making $$$. And the entry-class is an absolutely HUGE market. Subaru doesn't have an affordable entry level vehicle.
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    I have an OBS for it's function, not it's handling or looks. I've taken it through beaches, forests and other places I know the slight height definately helped. Also make frequent use of the rear power outlet. Of course since my wife has an OB, I have my eye on something else for the future.:-)

    I'm also surprised that the TS cost what it does. But how many sub-20K cars with full time AWD are out there?? I'm sure it would be successful even if they kept the 2.2L in there. Everyone is always screaming about horsepower though.

    Silver bullet - once you drive AWD a few times in heavy rain, you will not want to drive anything else. :-)
    Dennis
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You can't compare the civic, or any of those small cars to an impreza:

    2.5l engine
    AWD
    4wheel disc w/Anti-lock

    Those items are either not available or at an extremely high premium on the Civic, Corolla, Focus, neon...

    -mike
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    and we almost run out of the country. They then decided on an all AWD strategy and going upscale and they doubled the number of cars they sold. If you are small you have to have something to distinguish you from the others, if not then the sheer number of TV ad's etc will wear you down. I am also worried that Subaru will get too carried away and go upscale too fast and have problems in case of a recession, but so far they have proven that they know more about auto marketing than I do.

    Frank
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    the TS is not that a good buy if you look closely. No 16 forged alloys. Comes with 15 steelies, no heated seats (front), no extra gauges (males love gauges), no cargo cover, no tray ...no nothing! it's good for a base model. But evne so it is priced too high to compete with entry level sport wagons. It should be <16k IMHO.
    I'm not crazy about the OBS' goldish underside 2 tone either. They should've stayed with the platinum slate on the 99 OBS.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    You can't get jack for less that 16K. Ok, if they take out power windows, door locks, a/c, awd, 2.5l engine, disc brakes, etc you'll get an econobox, but then, people will still buy the hondas, etc.

    Not everyone likes alloy 16" rims and guages. As someone said above, you need to make a niche market or else you will loose when you go head to head with the big guys.

    It's kinda like warfare. You can't be the small guy and just go running into a field expecting to take out the opposing huge army. You need to stratigically place your people, and take pop shots very accurately. When you are a big guy you can go on a rampage in a field loose a few soldiers but win the battle.

    -mike
  • FrankMcFrankMc Member Posts: 228
    I read a book "Marketing Warfare" that made the exact same points, if you are a smaller player out-flanking your opponent works, frontal assults don't. (They used Lite beer from Miller as an example)

    Frank
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    in a press release (Yahoo News) in:

    http://home.earthlink.net/~gndiamant/subaru.htm

    that the OBS will have a raised suspension, roof "cross" rails, and an ambiant temp gauge, and few other goodies.

    Bob
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    you mortals. bwahahahahahaha
  • silver_bulletsilver_bullet Member Posts: 1,339
    Sometimes it works to run your own race, stay true to what you are, and stop trying to be all things to all people - look at Harley-Davidson. Porsche used to be a good automotive icon, but the upcoming Cayenne SUV has lots of diehards grumbling. I hope Subaru doesn't lose sight of what makes them special in a rush for market share.
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    For auto manufacturers that specialize in Niche vehicles is going to be maintaining market share. Isuzu stopped importing cars totally a few years ago to concentrate on trucks and SUV's. At the time there were probably 20-25 SUV's on the market, that number has doubled and is continuing to rise. Isuzu is having to offer large incentives to maintain sales. Other brands will be facing similar problems as more SUV's become available. Some of the new models will spur increased demand, but a lot of dilution of market share will also occur. Market saturation is a real problem. Subaru could face the same problems as more companies offer AWD vehicles.
  • amishraamishra Member Posts: 367
    Let's look at the N.A. Subaru MSRP numbers shall we?

    Organized by price

    Impreza TS - 17,495, compact
    Impreza OBS - 18,695, compact
    Impreza RS - 18,995, compact
    Legacy L Sedan - 19,295, midsize
    Legacy L WGN - 19,995, midsize
    Forester L - 20,295, small SUV
    Forester S - 22,895, small SUV
    Legacy GT - 23,795, midsize
    Outback - 22,885, midsize
    Legacy GT SDN - 22,895, midsize
    Legacy GT WGN - 23,795, midsize
    Impreza WRX WGN - 23,495, compact
    Impreza WRX SDN - 23,995, compact
    Legacy GT Ltd - 24,395, midsize
    Outback LTD SDN - 25,995, midsize
    Outback LTD WGN - 26,295, midsize
    Outback H6 LL-BEAN - 29,495, midsize
    Outback H6 VDC - 31,885, midsize

    I can *clearly* see several problems here.

    1. price differentiation between 1 model and the next is nearly meaningless
    2. same model differentiation by feature throughout the lineup is minor, and mostly consists of "luxury" upgrades, exception: H6 and WRX
    3. market coverage by model is negligible, with the exception of the H6 Outbacks and WRX [which break new ground]. Otherwise they are compacts & midsizes.
    4. market coverage by price is pretty slim, with the exception of the H6 models priced in the stratosphere.
    5. here's the kicker: all of them have a 2.5 L engine, with the exception of the 2 H6 models and the 2 WRX models.

    Mostly, what I see here is alot of overlap and lack of differentation. I see 3 classes of vehicles here. 2.5 L, 2.0 turbos, and H6s, the latter 2 being extremely oriented toward niche markets.

    Model placement (by price) seems to be have some anamolies, but to Subaru's credit is mostly consistent. ie. Imprezas at the low end, Outbacks at the high end.

    Anyway, the point of this exercise: take a look at the lineup for Honda or Toyota. And if you consider Subaru a niche automaker, than compare it to VW's lineup.
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