Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Dan: the lines are blurred. Notice Edmunds stopped separating Cars from Trucks? Now they're all listed together by manufacturer.

    Example: the EPA says the PT Cruiser is a minivan (!), so it's considered a truck, but it won North American CAR of the Year! Confusing, no?

    paisan is right - Durango even uses the old Caravan's tail lights. It's all truck, though, not nearly as refined as the minivan is.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    on the Highlander is just speculation on my part. I have no idea if this will happen.

    Bob
  • dannykadannyka Member Posts: 115
    I just think it's interesting how, as Juice says, "the lines are blurred." I don't know what to call my car/truck/SUV anymore...

    Teaching my 2 & 5-year olds is even more fun. Cars, wagons, and SUVs (like sedans, Outbacks, Pathfinder, Trooper) are "cars", things with beds are "trucks", and minivans/vans (you know, with the "cut-off nose") are vans. Am I scarring my kids for life? :-)

    -Dan

    PS - Mike, I hope you don't mind your Trooper being called a "car."
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I consider anything that isn't a "commercial" vehicle to be a car. Anything shy of a U-haul Box Truck to me is a car. Even pickups and Vans I consider in the "car" areana. What's in a name?

    -mike
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    A few years ago a friend from Switzerland was visiting and I asked if he'd seen the Mercedes SUV. I showed him a passing ML320 and he said, "Oh, the Mercedes mini-van?". A Mercedes SUV to him is the G-Wagen. :-)
    The current Automobile SUV buyer's guide even lists the OB Sport.
    Dennis
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    Found this using yahoo: http://autopedia.com/Acura/97_TypeRPowertrain.html

    Scroll to the bottom and you'll see a blurb on HELICAL LIMITED-SLIP DIFFERENTIAL. (skip the talk about the Acura Integra Type R).

    Here's the concise version: "Compared to viscous coupling-type limited slip differentials, helical limited slip differentials offer a more responsive, proactive torque transfer. This allows improved traction not only when exiting tight corners, but also when on slippery or uneven (undulated) road surfaces."

    -Brian
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Search for "torsen", you'll find even more.

    Its big weakness is that there is NO bias at all if one wheel is in infinite slip (i.e. in the air). Otherwise it is a fantastic differential, particularly for FWD or AWD vehicles.

    -Colin
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    guess what I just got in the mail? A brochure from Subaru on the new WRX! :)

    I must have requested one some time ago.

    I'm not sure if this is a early "teaser" brochure, or not. It appears to be pretty detailed, however.

    Talk to you later, I'm off for a preview of the Baltimore Show!

    Bob
  • j_walkerj_walker Member Posts: 99
    Neither do I mind the location of the gear shifter which coincidentally can also be found in the Honda Avancier (their hybrid suv/wagon). Being a Honda loyalist, I'd seriously consider the Avancier over the Outback only if it was available in the US. :-(

    -John
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    From what I understand, the new Impreza Model line up will be released at the same time as the WRX. We should have more brochure and Subaru.com information soon.

    Thanks!
  • ramonramon Member Posts: 825
    if they are so rugged why are they so darn rattly?!
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    That is interesting. Makes sense considering there are bound to be purchasers who like the look, chassis rigidity, etc. of the WRX but are looking at something less pricey. Or they have something strong against turbo lag, met a few folks like that.

    Thanks Patti!

    -Colin
  • kostamojen2kostamojen2 Member Posts: 284
    ^
    |
    Thats me :) Exept I want an RS but dont want the 8 year old style and pay less :P (Also, the improved interior is rather appealing, along with the possibility of getting the Impreza wagon with the 2.5l)

    I signed up for my brocure like 3 days ago, when should I expect it?

    Oh, and the rest of the impreza line should be introduced next month (Thats what SOA VP said at the WRX intro at NAIS)
  • nailitnailit Member Posts: 14
    If the Highlander is built on the Camry chassis then the drive train is basically a transverse mounted, front driver with a 90 degree jack shaft off of the transmission that drives the rear axle. Not a very smooth power transfer when you think of it in AWD configuration (two 90 degree turns just to turn the rear axle). Beside the noticeable torque steer inherent in this configuration, the power transfer lashup is the main reason why I wouldn't even consider the RX300, the RAV4, the CRV, the Tribute/Escape (besides all the other reasons not to consider these two), the Santa Fe and now I'm adding the Highlander to that list. We do a fair amount of off-road running (packing in for camping, canoeing and fishing trips) and the Forester's proven chassis works well for this. I'm not talking about axle deep, mud-slinging, rock climbing, serious off-roading that I can do in my Jeep. But, I want to know that the power transfer is there at the wheel when the trail leads somewhat off the beaten path. I just don't have the confidence in front-driver/rear addition configuration to stand up and take it... all claims to their reliability aside. And I know that most SUV owners don't buy their SUVs (and these SUVs aren't heavily marketed) to do the kinds of things that we do so it's an individual assessment of need vs. capability and in the end is a mute point for most buyers. IMHO, Dale
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Member Posts: 1,676
    the first shipment should arrive by 1/26. So, early Feb. sounds right.

    The brochures should be available around the same time, but demand for them is very high. I think we've started to increase printing quantities now as they are tracking higher than originally expected. Just to be sure, you may want to request them again.

    Patti
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Got mine last night and signed up for it on the 9th.
    Dennis
  • francophilefrancophile Member Posts: 667
    How's this for a simple definition:

    A coil that goes around in a circle.

    HTH,
    -wdb
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thanks Brian. What a resource these boards can be! I asked but really did not expect an answer.

    Colin: so helical=torsen? Care to elaborate on the no bias statement? Does that mean that on ice it does nothing for traction?

    I know that in Miatae, the early viscous LSDs (what mine has) were for bad weather traction, which the later torsens were meant for performance.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Juice, the term helical could potentially describe other differentials besides a torsen, but a torsen definitely is helical.

    By infinite slip I mean infinite. If one tire is on really slippery ice and the other is on dry ground, is it possible with a torsen diff that no torque would be delivered to the tire on dry ground. Repeat the test with one tire in the air (not a pleasant thought, but let's say you're in a ditch) and one on the ground. Now the tire on the ground DEFINITELY does not get torque.

    My wife's torsen-equipped Miata does fantastic on ice and snow with proper winter tires. The torsen locks up very quickly on dry and wet tarmac though-- it is very, very easy to chirp the inside tire exiting corners with lots of throttle input. Keep your foot down though and it plants nicely, but a chirp like that could invite a reckless driving ticket.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Interesting. So that's the torsen's achilles heel.

    I find that my rears tend to break traction at about the same time. In other words, I either drift with both or don't slip at all.

    It's a LOT harder to catch than my Forester, though. SNAP - and you spin. Hard to believe this was a factory suspensoin setup.

    Fun to learn how to control it though.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    The Forester has a load of understeer compared to a Miata, and you (hopefully) aren't trying to drive it nearly as fast.

    The first thing to learn in a Miata is not to lift or brake while turning. Do that, and you've spun.

    -Colin
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    has been updated with photos from the Detroit show. Some very good detail shots, of both the WRX and the new WRC racer!

    Bob

    http://www.new-impreza.com/index.htm
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Colin,

    In your infinite slip example, are the two tires on the same axle or on each end of the vehicle?

    How does that behavior differ from the VC in our Subies?

    Ken
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Same axle. A viscous coupling limited slip would lock to the best of its ability when one tire is in infinite slip, and then if the slip is not reduced in SHORT order it will burn up.

    -Colin
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Here's a good site with diff information plus animation: http://www.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

    Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Colin: I've spun even without lifting! It is tricky...

    The 'ster has the 18mm rear bar and seems more neutral now. I still haven't really been able to try it out the way I'd like to (snowfall has been minimal).

    The Miata almost seems tuned for oversteer in comparison. Maybe I'm just used to severe understeer (especially our nose heavy 626 V6).

    -juice
  • tshadletshadle Member Posts: 38
    almost everyone on this forum believes the VDC AWD system is superior to the VSC on the Highlander?
    Correcto-mundo?
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Hard to say. I haven't read anything about the Highlander's VSC yet. My guess is that they're both good systems.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    OUCH!
    According to new Impreza.com, those georgous new 17" BBS wheels will run about $650.00 each, not including tires. So... four wheels and tires could easily lighten your wallet by $3K, or so.

    Opps!
    An interesting rumor heard at the Baltimore Auto Show, regarding the upcoming ST-X pickup:

    According to one of the Subaru reps, there may be a problem with—of all things—the rear license plate! If you recall, the license plate is located in the middle of the tailgate, and is designed to swing down on a hinge, so that it would be visible when the tailgate is lowered. It turns out Subaru may have forgotten to design a license plate light that works in conjunction with the swing-down feature! When the tailgate is lowered at night, apparently the license plate can't be seen, let alone read—which, I think, is against the law.

    There is some question as to whether this can be redesigned in time for the vehicle's introduction. There is some talk of early owners perhaps signing some sort of a waiver, or something to that effect. Sounds like Murphy may be in charge here!

    Bob
  • tshadletshadle Member Posts: 38
    The writer in the USA Today review pretty much raked the VSC in slippery conditions over the coals. Haven't heard any such report about any Outback to date.
    Tom
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Interesting. I hadn't read that. In fact, I haven't read (or don't remember[?])any road tests on the new Highlander yet.

    Bob
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Interesting info about the ST-X. I met the owner of a dealership this past Saturday. I told him my idea of a perfect combo is a WRX and the ST-X. He said he just came back from a SoA meeting about it. He believes it will be out in the fall of '02 as an '03 model. Which is pretty much what everyone has been saying. Next time I see him, I'll see if he's heard about the license plate light.
    Dennis
  • drew_drew_ Member Posts: 3,382
    James Healey is a well known hater of traction control assisted AWD/4WD systems in the MB community. It is not the stability control component that he detests, but the traction control component. He prefers the "spin the wheels like heck until you get traction" method, which is why he praised the Acura MDX's part-time full-time AWD system to no end. I'm extremely surprised to hear that the Highlander does not have a VSC off button because I could've sworn seeing one during my test drive.


    Drew
    Host
    Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
  • tshadletshadle Member Posts: 38
    Here is the link to the Highlander test-drive.


    http://www.usatoday.com/money/columns/healey/0044.htm


    Tom

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Thanks for the link.

    The Highlander excites the rational, logical side of my brain. However, the emotional, fun-loving side of the brain is left in a coma.

    At least with Subaru, both sides of my brain get stimulated.

    Bob
  • tshadletshadle Member Posts: 38
    If you've test driven the Highlander, could you compare it to the VDC or Bean Outback please?
    Thanks,
    Tom
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    See my post rsholland Jan 16, 2001 11:59am.

    (Nice! I like that new copy link function. See this week's tip)

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    sounds like a camary. I'm suprised there was so much slippage during their test. That is the whole reason to get AWD, to not have slippage, what was Toyota thinking? or were they just trying to save weight and $?

    -mike
  • dsackmandsackman Member Posts: 145
    The Highlander test reported: "Highlander will carry from 1,105 pounds of people and things (V-6 AWD) to 1,500 pounds (four-cylinder FWD)"

    Is this another candidate for overloading and failing tires? 1,105 pounds is not much more than 5 well fed people. What about their luggage?

    Man, man, man. What are these people thinking?

    Daniel
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Pretty scathing review. Ouch.

    Highlander is FWD and only uses AWD part-time after there has been slippage, and I bet traction control only kicks in after AWD is already engaged and wheels slip again. Reactively reactive.

    I'm surprised the brakes were poor, given the brake assist. Busy ride, too? He also agreed with me on the shifter pod looking kind of silly.

    I found the payload ratings interesting, too. 1105 lbs for the AWD V6 model, and a whopping 1500 lbs for the FWD 4 banger. One hauls cargo, the other just hauls, I guess.

    Still, people will line up. It's a Toyota and it's bargain priced. Also, the RX300 is the class leader and people will know it's based on that.

    Bob: $650 is painful. And that kind of low profile would mean bent rims on the pot-holed streets I drive on.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    No juice, those load ratings to me suggest that the chassis and powertrain --specifically transmission, differential(s) and axles-- are car-based and not sufficiently beefed up to handle a heavier load.

    1100lb is ridiculous!

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My Forester is rated for about that much, and it's a lot smaller. 81 cubic feet of what? Feathers?

    It's funny that AWD and the V6 would reduce the payload by such an extreme amount.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    ?

    Maybe you didn't get the gist of what I was saying. AWD and the V6 could very well be some 400lb heavier than the FWD i4. The total chassis is only able to support a certain amount of weight, which is too low because the vehicle is a CAR with an SUV body.

    -Colin
  • armac13armac13 Member Posts: 1,129
    YAWN!

    Ross
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No, I got it. It's just you'd think they'd beef up the structure a bit or something. I don't know, better chassis bracing?

    My friend has a fleet of F series trucks for construction work, and they get 2WD for the better payload.

    I'm just surprised at how much the difference is!

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Given all the flavors of AWD systems out today, what I'd really like to see is a comparison test under various conditions.

    Edmunds are you listening?

    I'd love to see what VDC can do.

    Ken
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    After reading that USAToday article, I now understand why someone would cross shop an Outback H6 (or for that matter, any Subaru) when shopping the Highlander.

    They'll cross shop 'em because the Sube's are WAAAYYYY better. Subaru should market something like "sure, go look at the Highlander, and we'll have your Outback VDC waiting for you when you get back". Subaru definately has the AWD thing figured out very well, unlike the Highlander.

    -Brian
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    SoA had one for their own people. IIRC, the VDC was up against the X5, XC and ML320. They should make it into a video. I think Patti went to one.
    Dennis
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    One of my favorite vehicles of all time was the Supercharged AWD All-trac Previa. I thought it was a great vehicle. Why hasn't Toyota used the all-trac system in it's current line of awd vehicles?

    -mike
  • dannykadannyka Member Posts: 115
    There was a comparison of some small SUVs including the H6 Outback, Escape, Tribute, Santa Fe, Tracker, & Xterra. I'm doing this from memory (read it at an airport). They ranked the Outback dead last because you couldn't turn off the VDC so it was slow in the slalom, and I think they didn't like the off road performance either, mainly because of the approach/departure angles. Please correct me if I'm wrong on any of this, it's all from memory...

    By the way, the Escape was #1.

    -Dan
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