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To me at least, price is a big concern.
Given Legacy sales are weak, I'd like to see them drop the prices a little, instead of relying on the $750 incentive that keeps coming back. Lower the invoice price by $750, and the MSRP by $1000. It'll look good on paper, yet will not cost them anything.
-juice
I could see two scenarios, both with the H-6 automatic:
• 1) A "mainstream" model, aimed at families who like the current Legacy, but would like more rear legroom.
• 2) a "premium" model, with a "Bark-o-Lounger" reclining rear seat similar to that found on the new Maybach. Call it the "SE" using Shaquille O'Neal as the spokesman (Shaq Edition!).
Bob
There was a write up in the magazine that mentioned the rear seats getting 30mm of added legroom.
As for the ground clearance, it's listed as 200mm. You can see the dimensions on the file labeled "engine.jpg". Look on the lower left of the picture. The diagrams on this jpeg are the same as what SOJ showed on their extended advertisement in the magazine.
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/6d29b5cb/bc/Forester/Engine.jpg?bcjVB18AbcQnRicz
Sorry about some of the less-than perfect photos. I didn't have a scanner handy so I had to take the pictures by hand.
Ken
Maybe they could find Paul Hogan's really tall uncle from Australia to sit in that seat, instead of Shaq.
Ken: yep, I noticed the 200mm there, too. That's 7.9", and would make sense for the Forester not to have less clearance than the VDC wagon.
-juice
-Brian
Saw links in there that say DCX will do the PT Cruiser drop-top. They need to - demand in this area has plummeted. They have a $1000 rebate and prices at invoice. It's selling at Neon wagon prices already.
Another link talked about the Phaeton. Bob - did you see the AN article about how dealers were unhappy with VW's choice of names (Tuareg too)? We called it, months ago.
-juice
Bob
They, like us, prefer simply D1 and Colorado.
-juice
Let the Outback chase the family dollars and leave honda, Nissan, toyota, and I guess maybe Ford Taurus to scrap over the family sedan sales. Take Legacy sedan in a different direction, a sporting direction, with a wagon variant ala Avant. The market perception for the next generation of buyers is already built in thanks to Sony.
Bob
The new Car & Driver (April issue I believe) has a quick tidbit on the '03 Forester, and also states that the turbo version will make it over here next year. I believe it stated something like 217 hp, available with the 5-speed manual or 4-speed automatic.
What do you think prices will be? I'm guessing mid-20's, perhaps up to $27k if they offer things like leather and sunroof.
2024 Audi Q8 e-tron - 2017 911 C4S - 2025 BRZ - 2023 A6 Allroad - 2024 Genesis GV60 - 2019 Cayman
-mike
Jim
my guess is they're about the same in terms of costs.
Bob
-mike
H6, absolutely.
The highest cost, save emissions certification, post-engineering is building the dies and other manufacturing capability for a new engine. They will *have* to start making H6s domestically at some point, but currently they use just the one plant in Japan.
Anyway, I would be confident the H4 engine itself is cheaper to make than the H6. Unless an advanced/exotic turbocharger is used, that's not a great cost either. Emissions certification is.
-Colin
that's STOMP, as in the torque below 3k RPM would not even remotely be comparable. even with radical gearing the H6 would be at a disadvantage. and radical gearing = work truck, not an all-arounder like the Forester is.
-Colin
I'm also a bit confused by your emissions comment regarding the H-6 vs. the H-4 turbo? They both have to go through the same process, so why would it be more expensive for the H-6?
Bob
I wasn't trying to say that either engine would be more costly than the other to be emissions certified. I was trying to say that the certification process itself is quite costly no matter what the engine is.
And I don't know about the production capacity, but I do know that if they expand use of the H6 (as they should, what are they waiting for?) they will need to be able to produce them in Indiana at some point.
-Colin
Bob
As to completion, I'm not sure. My guess is sometime this year. If they are going to be offering an H-6 Legacy, as we all expect to be announced at the NY Auto Show a the end of this month, then I would think that new plant is very close to completion.
Bob
b) some people would prefer a nice, smooth H6. if the H6 were only larger displacement it would have some advantages over a LPT 2.5L-- sorry, 3.0L just doesn't cut it. maybe with VVT?
due to ever tightening emissions restrictions, I bet all engines will have VVT within the next decade.
-Colin
-mike
Bob
-mike
Jim J.
As to the H-6 legacy, one of the SOA chief honchos was quoted (or implied) at the NADA Show a month or so ago as saying the Legacy would be getting the H-6 for '03. We know the '03 Legacy will be updated, so we're all assuming the H-6 will be part of the update.
I guess we'll find out in about three weeks.
Bob
Chief
that's vee-vee-tee. variable valve timing.
-Colin
Here's a picture showing the change in engine performance:
http://us.f1.yahoofs.com/users/6d29b5cb/bc/Forester/__hr_Engine.jpg?bcDLX18Ai_bsUGWU
It's a very big file on a slow server so it may take some time to load. The graphs are on the upper right. Bold lines indicated the 2003 engine and the lighter lines the previous model.
Ken
http://www.glpi.org/expansion/pressreleases/subaru_auto.html
-Dennis
-mike
Why? I would say that the turbo would be far easier to hop up if the mood ever grabbed you, also lets face it, todays turbo is a far cry from the earlier turbo,s in terms of realibility.
As well I would also venture to say that a lot of the realibility issues affecting the earlier turbo were maintenance related, I don,t think a lot of people maintained the turbo,s as they should have.
Cheers Pat.
I wonder if this range includes the rumored turbo, if so we definitely have a winner!
--Bart
Chief
- The 30mm increase in rear legroom was acheived through little tweaks here and there. The rear seat backs were moved back a smidge, the front seat hip point was raised a bit, etc.
- Subaru decided to keep the Forester the same overall size based on feedback from markets around the world including North America (!).
- One area that they concentrated on was the overall look and feel of the interior. Apparently this was a common request. The article mentioned that the quality of some of the interior trim now even surpasses the Legacy.
Ken
If you ask me, the writing is on the wall. Subaru is going out of their way to trumpet the new 2.0l turbo. The graph shows it makes more torque than the old engine from 1800-3600rpm, less at high rpm. That's where Americans want their torque, so the engine was tuned for US tastes.
To me that makes a 2.5l LPT unlikely, despite what the magazines say. The Baja didn't get a supercharger, either.
What costs more? I don't know about production costs, but Subaru charges much more for the turbo. The WRX costs $5 grand more than an RS. The LL Bean costs only $2 grand more than an Outback Limited. Both add some content, but any way you cut it Subaru charges more than double for the turbo vs. the H6. Price point to the H6. At least market pricing does. Subaru cannot charge $30k for a turbo Forester, even loaded.
But the turbo is made in Japan, right next to the Forester, and is now tuned more for US tastes. The H6 is made a couple of thousand miles away. Logistics point to the turbo, then.
I hope I'm wrong. A 2.5l LPT seems to be the perfect compromise, torque and power, and mod friendly.
-juice
Bob
Bob -- I hope so. I'm hoping that the facelift is also mirrored inside. I'm really hoping Subaru comes out with a Legacy GT with a little more oomph. That would probably be my next new car purchase. :-)
Ken
My feeling is that any market that gets a 2.5 engine will also get a 2.5 LPT, not a 2.0 LPT, when a turbo version is released.
Bob
Bob
But that's good to hear. The higher seats, too. More thigh support in the rear seat would be good.
Drove the new MPV, finally. Wife got a $25 offer to go in for a test drive, so I finally got her to try one. No sale, she didn't smile driving it once.
It's a perfectly good van, though. She just enjoys driving, and a van is not a driver's car, even this zoom-zoom van.
Pros: ingenious interior, traction control, 200hp, 5 gear ratios, styling, refined engine, 3rd biggest moonroof I've seen.
Cons: wind noise, indecisive tranny, too-short arm rests, no heated seats, rear drum brakes for $29k?
So no sale, we've basically ruled out minivans altogether. The Ody is even bigger and she already felt this was a little past her comfort zone.
MPV had much better visibility than the Kia Sedona, and a more refined engine by far, but it also costs $6 grand more.
-juice
No Mini-van
Looks like:
Mini-ute
or
Sedan
?
-mike
That did not happen with the minivan. She actually felt a little drowsy during the test drive. So it would be great on road trips because she likes to sleep anyway, but not for daily driving.
So much for zoom-zoom, it was sort of "perfectly boring", and not particularly fast or fun. For a minivan, it was fine, but I guess that rules out vans.
-juice
sounds like you should just give in and buy a big honking SUV if that's what she wants. a new expedition maybe? ;-)
-Colin
-mike
-mike