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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Still looks like poor angles of approach and departure, skinny side walls, wheel travel? it will hit the fenders if they move an inch or 2. Looks like a great stationwagon though. "Both models will be highly capable off-roaders according to engineers from VW and Porsche as they benchmarked the Touareg and Cayenne against all major competitors available including Jeep, Mercedes, BMW, GMC and others.
    " Hmm let's see MB ML isn't an outstanding off-roader, BMW doesn't have one, and GMC was probably the Denali which isn't off-roader either!

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    quote: Towing capacity is 7,716 lbs.

    How very German of them. Americans say it tows 7,500 lb (or even 7,000 if the lawyers are in the room). Subaru of America says they don't know what it will tow and you better not try to put a tow kit on it.

    (just kidding, but it was funny.)

    -Colin
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    paisan, if they say it compared favorably against JEEP, then that means Grand Cherokee... which means that the claim is either BS or that thing has reasonable approach/depart angles, ground clearance, etc.

    -Colin
  • jimmyj1945jimmyj1945 Member Posts: 141
    I posted this before but here it is again. Do I personally know anything about what Subaru is going to do-NO. I have been to two auto shows recently and talked to two different people who work for Subaru (not dealers). Both of them told me the 2004 Forester will get a Turbo with the 2.5L, not 2.0L engine. They even said it would be a low pressure turbo and not have as much HP as the WRX. They also said the engines on the Legacy will not change for the 2003MY, but will get a Turbo for 2004. I don't remember for sure if we discussed which 2.0 or 2.5 for the Legacy. I was mostly interested in the Forester. I remember at least one of them saying the Legacy turbo was for some WRX owners to move up in size. I am not making this up, but how valid this information is, I can not say. We will learn soon if the Legacy gets a different engine of any kind. If it does than I will consider all this B.S. However, if it stays the same, I will have a tendacy to believe them. What you wish to believe is your choice! Just trying to participate and let you know what I have heard.

    Jim J.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    a brochure on the new extended wheelbase TrailBlazer, and boy, when they say extended wheelbase—they're not kidding! It's a whopping 129!"

    Putting this in perspective:

    • The standard TrailBlazer's wheelbase is 113."

    • The 3-row seat Explorer's wheelbase is 113."

    • The 3-row seat full-size Tahoe's wheelbase is 116."

    • The full-size Suburban's wheelbase is 130." 1" more than the TrailBlazer LWB!!

    Pictures of the vehicle in the brochure make the extended wheelbase version look way out of proportion. The breakover angle looks to be terrible, so forget any off-roading. Since the wheelbase is 1" shorter than the Suburban, you can expect a turning circle in the Suburban neighborhood too.

    GMC gets a version (of course) too. I doubt if the Bravada will, since Olds is being phased out. Also, this extended wheelbase model is what the new Isuzu Ascender is being based on.

    Bob
  • jim_loves_carsjim_loves_cars Member Posts: 190
    Don't count the Bravada out yet. I've read (in Automobile?) that the Bravada might be picked up by Cadillac when Olds fades away. They'll re-tweak it to the new corporate look and (my speculation) probably give it a three letter moniker.

    After all, Caddy is on the rise and doesn't have a midsized SUV in the stable.

    -jim
  • artgeckoartgecko Member Posts: 78
    My Ford F-150, which is what I drove for five years proir to the WRX wagon I bought 1056 miles ago, has a 157" wheelbase and 240" overall length! Talk about a drastic change! Of course my '58 MGA has a 94" wheelbase (156" overall), so I was used to the smaller size. Just not as a daily driver. [WRX 99"/173" for comparison]

    Went to the Cleveland auto show last night. No Brat, er, I mean Baja, but there were a lot of people looking at the LLB 3.0H6 and the WRX. First time I'd actuall seen one. I like the two sunroofs!

    Steve

    Steve
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Well we all know that the Grand Cherokee is not as good as toted by Jeep, in order for it to pass the rubicon, they use a sawz-all on the front and rear bumpers, bigger tires, and still got it dinged up a bit. I'm going by the pics I saw, so unless there is some Audi-all-road riser system that makes it rise up a few feet, it taint gonna be a good offroader, low range or not.

    -mike
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    Starts at $65,000 dollars? Another $5,000 will get you the new Range Rover, which has a true off-road heritage. I love how they benchmarked the Cayenne against vehicles that cost 10's of thousands of dollars less. The benchmarks of the new Range Rover were the Mercedes S class for on-road capability, and the current Range Rover for off road capability. My opinion of the wisdom of Porsche producing the Cayenne remains unchanged, especially with the tie-in with VW. The number 914 comes to mind. While there seems to be some interesting 4WD technology being employed, I think the VW version will appeal to me more (depending on styling.) One little secret of the over 7000 lb. tow rating, I will not be surprised if it applies in low range only (we do the same thing on the 4.0 and 4.6 engines) as low end torque is generally lacking in small bore V8's. I certainly admire Porsche sports cars and am not too predjudiced against competing SUV's, there are several I like and respect very much. *I do like the 2003 Forester and hope it gets a power boost eventually.
    *= on topic part of post ;)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    As much as I'm not a huge fan of their past reliability, you have to give it to them for off-road (TRUE off-road) capability. Now if in that Press release I saw on there listed that they put it up against: Toyota and Range Rover and Mitsubishi, then I'd be impressed. Stock for stock you can't beat a TLC and RR for world-class off-road capabilities.

    -mike
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    We agree again, we have to be careful this doesn't become a habit. :)
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    RIP :(
  • allhorizonallhorizon Member Posts: 483
    Cayenne: the 7,716 lbs number is simply a conversion from the round number of 3,500 kilograms.

    Looks like a nice station wagon.


    Electrochromic Windows: http://www.nrel.gov/buildings/windows/how.html

    http://www.sage-ec.com/pages/sgexplained.html


    Forester Turbo: can't … wait … much … longer …


    - D.

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Interesting corporate "flavor of the week theme" quote I've seen tossed around/posted up on bulliten boards here "If we are all thinking alike, no one is thinking at all!" Interesting eah?

    On the towing note, how much do you want to bet that the tow rating is decreased dramatically for the US spec version? You know once those US lawyers get in there it'll be dropped to about 4000-4500lbs.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Interesting link on electrochromatic glass.

    Bob
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Interesting link on the 2002 Legacy in the UK. It looks like the exterior gets the same upgrade as the JDM spec Legacy.

    I wonder what they meant by the improvements to the suspension. Were they refering to the current Legacy platform in general vs. the 2002 upgrade?

    Ken
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    to offer AWD and left-side rear doors on their redesigned full-size van; both industry firsts.

    Bob

    http://just-auto.com/news_detail.asp?art=37429&dm=yes
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bob: there is a chill in Lucipher's den. Porsche sold its soul to the Devil.

    14"x16" limit on the electrochromatic mirrors so far. And they said it has 7 layers. They didn't discuss weight, but to form a large window they'd have to create several panes. They'll improve on the technology, though.

    No surprise on the vans - door wars were declared years ago. Now we got coupes with 3 doors, pickups with 4, and vans with 4. 6 door Suburbans were rumored for a while.

    Ascendor has potential, then. I read it will get the 270hp straight six, so power is there. I hate GM interiors, so to me the question is will Isuzu get to completely re-do it, or will they inherit GM's junky buttons and switches?

    The catch is it will be assembled at a GM plant, too bad it's not SIA.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The poorplacement of critical things like the ECU, and fuse panel (under the 2nd row of seats, poorly sealed) and poor build quality will surely insue. :(

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    We'll see how much influence Isuzu has on the interior. They might just share the platform and engine. If it had TOD and a totally redone interior, it could have a character all its own.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    It won't have TOD, that's been established :(

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Boy, GM has really taken over. :-(

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    may have sold its soul to the devil, only to survive in the marketplace. They're losing customers to other SUV brands, so I can see why they did it.

    Look, I could care less whether Porsche makes an SUV or not. I'll never be able to buy one. If they feel that's what they need to do, so be it. I do think it will be a better SUV than some here claim, however. In any case I'd be much more interested in the VW version that mere mortals have a chance of buying. From that link I posted, they said the VW will probably be the better off-roader anyway.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Just got the new issue of Automobile in the mail today, and much of it's devoted to the new breed of SUVs that are just hitting the road (off road?). Included are: The new Range Rover, Hummer H2, Mercedes G-wagon, a trick Ford dune buggy that was on the show circuit last year, and a number of other interesting articles. Also a discussion on IRS being used off road. It looks like a good read...

    Bob
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    quote: It looks like a good read...

    No offense Bob, but I was actually thinking the opposite when I received my copy yesterday.

    ;-)

    -Colin
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    on SUVs, I guess. If you like SUVs, then it's a good read; if not, then it isn't...

    Bob
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I just wonder how many sales they actually lost, and if the Cayenne will cannibalize sales from the 911 and the Boxter. I personally think a sports sedan or wagon would have been a more natural extension of their existing range. I think too many companies are looking at the SUV numbers from 5 years ago, when there was less competition, and thinking the market has plenty of room left. Auto trends are cyclic, and getting in too late is much worse than not getting in at all. An AWD sport wagon or sedan with killer road handling I could see them doing very well with. They could be looked at as being at the start of a developing trend, as opposed to being perceived as just another company lacking vision and focus by following the crowd and going against their heritage.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    some may see the Cayenne as a killer AWD sport wagon, and not an SUV...

    As to being pretender, I guess we won't know that until the magazines start testing them.

    With all due respect Chuck, I do sense more than a bit of irritation on your part that Porsche is entering what is considered Land Rover market. Now this could very well be your own opinion,as you've stated, but I can't help but think the folks at Land Rover are none too happy about having another potential "showroom" competitor. Afterall, every Cayenne sold is one Range Rover that isn't sold.

    Bob
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I'm not upset at that at all and I know of no one at Land Rover who is, the new Range Rover is already sold out for months. It will stand on it's own quite well. I would be just as disappointed if Land Rover turned their back on over 50 years of heritage to build a sports car. Some will say that Land Rover is late at getting in the small SUV market, but that is accurate in the US market only, they actually helped pioneer the class (Honda got the idea for the CRV from seeing early Freelander prototypes). We also have kept off-road ability as an area to focus on, while recognizing the need to improve our products on road abilities. It's one thing to adapt your vehicles to a changing market place due to competition, quite another to jump on an already full bandwagon.
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Bob,

    If I gave a rip about SUVs I'd subscribe to Motor Trend instead of Automobile. 'nuff about that though...

    -Colin
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    While we're all pretty much on the same page as far as Subies are concerned (most of the time), it looks like we'll never agree on Porsche's SUV or Automobile magazine's editorial content. That's fine. That's what make this forum interesting. If everybody agreed on everything it would be pretty boring around here.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    on the ever-changing automotive landscape.

    Bob

    http://www.detnews.com/2002/insiders/0203/09/b01-435370.htm
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the March 11 issue of AutoWeek yet? The cover story is on the new Mercedes E-Class which has just been introduced in Europe.

    I've always found the E-Class, while certainly an excellent car, to be among the dullest looking Mercedes products. Maybe it's because it's the "middle" model, and just seems to get lost among its bigger and smaller siblings, much like that of a middle child in some families... I've found this to be especially true of the out-going E-Class; it's styling is especially dull in light of the great looking new C-Class and S-Class which act as "bookends," with the E-Class being in the middle.

    So what's all this go to do with Subaru? Plenty. The current E-Class and the current Impreza, besides both being somewhat awkward looking, share similar headlights and fender contours. The all-new E-Class has retained the oval headlights, yet the visual transformation is incredible. They have softened the harsh angles and contour of the front fender into a much smoother and better flowing design. It's now a great looking car IMO.

    That's exactly what Subaru needs to do with their reportedly "freshened" '04 Impreza. I say keep the oval headlight theme, but re-contour the fender into a more graceful shape, like what Mercedes has done.

    Same with the rear styling: The outgoing E-Class is deadly dull to look at from the rear. The new one is much more exciting to look at with new tailights and revised deck lid. Again, Subaru needs to follow the Mercedes formula here too.

    Really, it's just a matter of taking the existing styling cues and have them "massaged" by a skillful design team, be it Subaru (in-house), ProDrive, or some designer-label design house.

    The "ugly duckling" would then indeed become a "swan."

    Bob
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Bob,

    As you may remember, I got temporary custody of my late Uncle's E-class 4Matic (AWD) this past Fall. Even though a past generation model, driving it for two months gave me a totally new appreciation of what better engineering can provide. It looked very dull, but performed way beyond my expectations.

    Steve
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    My comments pertain strictly to looks. Yes, it is a great car, especially the 4-Matic.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No offense but the VW, BMW, etc are NOT SUVs. They are RSW or SMVs

    RSW= Raised Sport Wagons
    SMV= Soccor Mom Vehicles

    -mike
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    This goes to show that the death of the SUV segment as we know it dovetails nicely with the emergence of new niches that marketers (and Paisan) are struggling to name. PAG won't lose a single sale to Porsche because the Land Rover is an SUV and the Cayenne isn't. It's the X5 and ML that are going to lose sales, vehicles that emphasize performance 1st, style second, and then somewhere down the list traditional "truck" attributes like utility, towing, and off-roadability.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Call them what you will; what counts is that they satisfy or fill the needs of their owners.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bob: the thing is, if Porsche sells out, will people still view them as the premiers sports car manufacturer? In other words, are they making profits in the short-term but hurting the brand in the long run?

    LOL Colin, sorry if this has become "Future SUVs" instead of "Future Models". How 'bout that Blitzen? ;-)

    Interesting editorial. I've said Piech was crazy, going more than a little too far. It's all about getting revenge, after Mercedes hit the Golf market straight on with the A class.

    We fully aggree on the new E-class, though, the new one is a looker. Maybe Subaru could move the fog lights up, and do something similar, so people would compare them to Mercedes instead of Neons.

    paisan: do we really need even more acronyms? ;-)

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    << Bob: the thing is, if Porsche sells out, will people still view them as the premiers sports car manufacturer? In other words, are they making profits in the short-term but hurting the brand in the long run? >>

    I really don't think that will be a problem, and I don't see them as selling out either. I think it will be by far the sportiest vehicle of that type.

    However, I'm far more interested in the VW version, than the Porsche version. With VW, I have at least a chance of considering purchase.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The thing is I really respect companies with focus. Make the best of one thing, and stay focused on that. There is an aura that surrounds every 911, regardless of age or performance.

    Not so with the front engined 924/944/968 series. Those are huge eye sores in the company's image. I'm sure they'd rather have the history books exclude those.

    They were losing focus. Boxster got them back on track, with a back-to-basics mid-engined roadster.

    Cayenne will have a front engine, and to many that means it's not a real Porsche, myself included.

    The VW version ought to be more interesting. I find that stiffly sprung X5s do not meet my definition of sporty. They are bulky and feel that way. I'd take a 5 series wagon any day, truth is they are much sportier.

    So VW's softer tuning may be more realistic of what a platform of that size can achieve. I bet it'll cost $40 grand, though.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    juice, you don't see many mid- or rear-engined SUVs or SAWs or RSWs or whatever.

    engine configuration seems like a quibbling thing compared to the fact they had the audacity to make the Cayenne look similar to a Boxster / 911.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think the configuration is important. I won't feel like a Porsche. It won't drive like anything else in the lineup. That's what I mean - it doesn't fit in.

    I'll wait to see the final product, but the prototypes look horrible.

    Mid engine? The only thing even remotely close that I can think of was the Previa. They still sell in Japan. And no, I don't think Porsche should try it, I don't think they should be in that class at all.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    what everyone is saying here. I think what intrigues me about the the Cayenne, 1) is to see what Porsche will come up with, and 2) how it will perform. My sense is that it will push the limits on road as to how an SUV will perform, and may very well surprise people as to its off road capability too.

    I see Porsche as a brand that pushes the limit in terms of technology, no matter what they build. I expect to see that here with the Cayenne too.

    IMO, and for far too long, SUV engineering has remained almost Neanderthal. I'm excited by any company that injects new thinking into that segment. So, normally I would agree with you on the "focus" issue. But I'm willing to be more tolerant with Porsche, because I want to see what they come up with.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I see as an oxymoron. A sporty on-road truck. They are heavy, large, and tall by definition. When you try to make them sporty, the results are ugly - a stiff riding gas guzzler that neither carries families in comfort nor handles rock crawling.

    On the track, these are the vehicles that tend to roll over, right?

    So, why did I buy a Forester? Well, it's light. It's small outside, but still practical. The center of gravity is low, yet ground clearance is pretty good for my purposes. Gas mileage is certainly acceptable, even good.

    Can Porsche do that? I'm skeptical. It won't be light. Dimensions may be OK, and it just might offer practical space and size. We'll wait and see about center of gravity and ground clearance, but I'd be surprised if they can do both. I'm sure they'll be paying gas guzzler taxes.

    It's easy to be the critic, so what would I like to see? X5 is the most direct competitor, so I'd use lots of aluminum to lose 500 pounds, and re-package the interior for better use of space. Put in a boxer engine with full-time AWD like the 911 Turbo.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The characteristics that make a good on-road vehicle are directly opposite to what a good off-road vehicle is. The Porsche/VW will be too short/small to be truely utilitarian, and will be on-road oriented, which means it will suffer off-road.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    << I see as an oxymoron. A sporty on-road truck. They are heavy, large, and tall by definition. When you try to make them sporty, the results are ugly - a stiff riding gas guzzler that neither carries families in comfort nor handles rock crawling.

    On the track, these are the vehicles that tend to roll over, right? >>

    I'm hoping brands like Porsche, VW, BMW, Mercedes, etc., with their new and different thinking, will find ways of minimizing these negatives; Detroit certainly has done little on this front, as we all know.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree, paisan. I recall my Jeep buddies actually disconnecting their no-sway bars before heading off road.

    Can Porsche break the laws of physics? Or even bend them?

    I guess I saw BMW try and was so disappointed that I'm not as optimistic about it as Bob is.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Bob long traveling suspensions, with lots of ground clearance, and big open wheel wells with heavy duty skid plates etc. are not going to be good for on-road stuff. As well as aerodynamics coupled with boxy storage areas are pretty much physically impossible to achive unless of course you can break the laws of physics! :) Just my 2 cents, although i'm sure I'll be up to $1 by the end of the day! haaaaa :)

    -mike
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