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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    The laws of physics are absolute. I just don't think all the possibilities have been explored. The more brands that enter the truck or SUV markets, the more new thinking gets interjected. I think that's good. And... I especially welcome the Europeans, because when it comes to suspensions, they are often at the leading edge in terms of engineering and thinking.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I guess my question then would be - what are they really trying to achieve?

    I mean, let's face it, almost no one will take the Cayenne off road. Maybe just to prove a point, or win a bet, but that's not why they'll buy it.

    I would be more impressed if they called it a crossover and didn't even pretend to give it off-road capability. Wagons can be sporty, look at the RS4 Avant, wow!

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I bet we some of these will be raced in off-road or dessert races. A number of Porsche customers race their 911s and Boxsters. I see no reason why these folks wouldn't enter Baja-type races too.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Isn't an off-road event. Those are roads, albeit they aren't exactly a track, but they are not considered true off-road experiences. So yeah if you consider things like sandy roads like the pine barrens and baja stuff to be "off-road" they'll probably be fine, but even there, you want wheel travel, and there is almost no wheel travel on these vehicles.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    SCORE provides many off-road races out west. I'm sure the Cayenne will be found there.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Bob: some of the early ads show older 911 customized for off road racing. They look silly IMHO, 911s belong on a track. I can see them racing the Cayenne, though, they may have to.

    paisan: isn't the Vehicross tuned for that type of driving? Pine Barrens style rallying, I mean?

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The VX is setup for Baja-dune-pine barrens type driving. Special shocks with external resivoirs are one component of it as well as thicker sway bars. Although most of the rest of the suspension is stock trooper stuff.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Cayenne could aim at that type of driving, then. IMHO it should not even attempt to crawl over rocks.

    -juice
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I find it interesting that we have had more posts on the Cayenne in the Subaru boards than there are in the Cayenne board. Not significant, just interesting.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    That is interesting, indeed. Maybe we should recruit some Porsche owners to visit over here, if they're willing to slum it for a while.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Porsche pretty much races everything they build. So to find a factory Cayenne race team is probably quite likely—especially in order to prove (and promote) this controversial new vehicle.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think cause we are "car people" more than the average people subscribed on here we discuss all different makes/models.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    some new Subaru news... Anybody have anything new on the Subaru front?

    I just read that in Australia, Subaru and GMAC have hooked up to do financing of Ozarus.

    Bob
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    well, I've mentioned a few times that I think the H6 isn't big enough at 3.0L. There's a 3.2L twin turbo Impreza for sale on MRT's site!

    I would get excited and say that 3.2L is possible which is good for bigger and better Subies down the road... but then again, 3.2L could be ragged edge stuff so I'm not getting my hopes up too much.

    -Colin
    btw, that 3.2L H6 twin turbo claims 660kW on the dyno = 885 hp SAE
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    "I just read that in Australia, Subaru and GMAC have hooked up to do fnancing of Ozarus."

    Going as planned.
    From a May 2000 press release:
    http://www.fhi.co.jp/english/news/2000/5_29.htm

    "North America
    - Strengthen three mainstay models (full model changes, horizontally opposed six-cylinder engine, introduction of turbo models, etc.)
    - Launch a 4-door pick-up based on Legacy (Starting 2002)
    - Product exchange with GM
    - Subaru dealer development supported by GM
    - Utilization of GM expertise, systems and infrastructures (automobile loans: GMAC, internet: e-GM)"

    -Dennis
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Is that a bored out 3.0l or some other engine? Just curious.

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    Yes, bored and maybe even a little stroked EZ30 3.0L H6. Not an undersized EG33.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If the Cayenee threads are not active, that says a lot to me.

    Look at the G35 threads, they are hard to keep up with! It's unreal. That car is one of the most talked about new launches I've ever seen. People are genuinely exciting to a level I haven't seen since the WRX arrived.

    And look at the product - a back to basics sports sedan. RWD, V6, plain and simple. There isn't even a manual tranny offered (for now). All this from a brand with less than 1/10th the cachet of Porsche.

    I notice they say turbo models (plural). Legacy turbo, after all?

    3.2l seems doable, but I don't think the 3.0l is the problem - they need 5 ratios, one way or another.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    in general are not very active here at Edmunds. I'm not sure many Porsche owners hang out here.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, but lots of folks hang out in the G35 topic just to talk about it. I mean there is a real buzz surrounding this product, even from people that aren't really planning to buy it.

    Check it out - it's 70 posts per day, hard to keep up with. It's not even on sale here yet!

    -juice
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    It could also be that mortals like us can afford them. There is a similar lack of discussion in the 2003 Range Rover topic. I doubt if many potential Porsche (or Range Rover) owners hit Edmunds for info. Most of them have enough money that all the good advice here doesn't matter to them. Our Marketing people have the median RR owner making $380,000 annually.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Ha ha, I want to be a Range Rover owner, then!

    I'm just impressed at how cars like that can spark up interest. The WRX, too, BTW. I guess I like cult cars, cars that owners get excited about. Cars that NON-owners get excited about.

    Now give the rear end a face lift, that thing is an eye sore. My wife said she liked it and then saw a rear view photos and veto'd it on the spot!

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    is there an echo in here?

    -Colin
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    While you cannot change wheelbase or track 'on the fly', advancements in electronically controlled active suspension will certainly widen the lattitude in design tradeoffs.

    Sensors/actuators applied to shock valving, variable compression rate and travel limiting springs, ride height control, variable roll bar bushings, steering feedback, etc. will transform the entire demeanor of your car at the touch of a switch, or maybe via road reading optical sensors, etc.

    A great handling BMW 540 Sport Wagon becomes an X5 killer. OK, maybe not the best example, but you get the idea. True, I have argued against too much electronic control in cars, but I do see this as our future.

    Steve
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Wheel Travel is pretty much a mechanical thing. I don't think you can get in there and limit the wheel travel etc. But yes you are correct if you have some kind of way to vary the ride-height, firmness, change the lengths of the 1/2 shafts, etc. etc. you can do it, but the cost involved and will never render it practical, not to mention the weight of all these variable things. If money isn't an object it could be done, but if money isn't an object, buy 2 cars a true sports car and a true off-roader. :)

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    fibber, actually active suspension could do just about everything well today if you threw enough money at it.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Thanks interesting Steve, I guess we could look at the Audi allroad quattro as an early example. It sort of "lifts its skirt" in off-road scenarios.

    Still, UK magazines said the Forester handled better off road, so it's still not very capable. And it's a real porker - weight is an issue they have to watch carefully. Even with the twin turbo engine, it's not that quick.

    Another issue is cost. But I guess Porsche won't care much about price, and a huge engine will compensate for the weight somewhat.

    Got my Autoweek, the issue Bob mentioned, and it has a finalized Cayenne photo. The styling really doesn't mate well to such a big car, it looks odd, out of proportion. I'll have to see it on the road, but I agree with Colin on the look.

    Lincoln will soon sell an Aviator, an Explorer clone. It's funny how much the grille changes the overall look.

    The E-class looks gorgeous. What a truly handsome car. I'd seen spy pics from the filming of men in black, but it looks even better in silver, especially with those AMG wheels. It's simply stunning. But $47-50k for starters? Ouch. 5 series start at $10 grand less.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    also has a DOHC 4.6, which is a Lincoln SUV exclusive. I don't know yet as to whether it uses the Mountaineer's AWD, or the Explorer's Control Trac with both a high and low range; I suspect the single range AWD.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    With full-time AWD and that Cobra engine, it could really sell well.

    BTW, I looked closely at the E-class headlights, and they look EXACTLY like the Impreza's new lights, even down to the upper partition line being visible. The resemblance is unmistakable.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Caddy will get the Bravada SUV with a Twin Turbo and viscous center diffy apparently when the Olds finally gets burried.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I feel fairly neutral about the looks. I don't hate it, yet I don't love it either. It's just okay.

    Trying to include traditional brand (Porsche in this case) styling cues into a vehicle like this is difficult. Cadillac also did a horrible job trying to incorporate their "new edgy" styling cues into the Escalade. It flat out just doesn't work. The styling looks "forced," not natural. I do think, however, Lincoln did a pretty good job with their SUV, as did Mercedes with the ML, and BMW with the X-5, and Volvo with the XC-90.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I disagree, Bob. All monster SUVs look clumsy by default, but the Escalade is so unforgivably in-your-face that I like it. Look at all the rap videos now - this is the featured truck!

    That neo-Bravada ought to be popular. The new caddy styling is growing on me. Each design has its own character, yet they obviously belong to the same family. The ads are cool, too.

    -juice
  • oregonboyoregonboy Member Posts: 1,650
    Didn't Subaru market a special addition legacy a few years back with a height-adjustable suspension? I have long thought that height adjust ability would become a "big thing" because it's both a fashion statement and a means to increase versatility.

    Citroen made height adjustable cars back in the 60s. It was driver controlable at low speeds, but automatically reduced height at high speed to improve handling and stability. A unique side note: the car had NO JACK. Somehow, using the hydraulic suspension, it could lift itself up for tire changing. (I don't remember the details, a jack STAND may have been necessary).

    Anyway, this was only a moderately expensive car. I'm certain that manufacturers could do it better/cheaper now, IF there were no major legal liability issues.

    And I have to agree with Bob. Caddie's styling is too over-the-top. 15 years from now they are going too look really silly.

    -james
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I like the direction Caddy is taking with their styling; it just doesn't integrate well with the Escalade which is a combination of the new sharp-creased Caddy look, and the rounded Tahoe look, which it is based on. It's not a happy mix, IMO.

    Bob
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    they had it on my old 92 LS wagon, it cost over $700 to fix when it leaked!
    not sure I ever needed that extra inch or whatever it was in 6 years of MN winters, it wasn't as dramatic as the Citroens thats for sure!
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I had it in the XT6. It was nice, dropped you 1" over 50mph, in canada it was actually adjustable manually via a controler. Some XT6s owners have tricked the sensors and gotten 7" of lift from the air suspension. The problem was that the rbber boots eventually wear out $300/corner for the shocks, $90/corner for the check valve, $250 for the pump, $300 for the ECU controller for them.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If they could make the components (much) more durable, it would be interesting.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Is gonna dry and crack over time, it's really the only downfall to air-suspensions, but no one from Caddy to Lincoln to any other manufacture made ones that last 10 years or more.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I know, but what about using some poly material instead? Not my area of expertise, I'll admit.

    -juice
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    In industry we use some pretty sophisticated isolation systems to quell vibrations and dampen the motion of rapidly shifting loads, etc. I have a number of "active" (mechanical transducer & electronic controlled feedback) air tables and platforms in my lab that support thousands of pounds of stuff for years on end.

    Sure it is not automotive, but it sets an example for what can be done.

    Steve
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Patti will get a trained on the 2003 Forester today, so hopefully we'll get more complete info.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think it's the environmental variables that kill the automotive systems, mostly UV light breaks em down IIRC alont with salt and variations in temperature.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Can they really do it for that price? $15-22k?

    I look at the Liberty, and how its price creeps up once you get one well equipped, and I'm not so sure. Priced with the equipment I'd want, the Liberty hits $28 grand.

    Autoweek compared the C-pillar to the AMC Gremlin, but I actually think it looks cool.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I thought the new Forester was originally to "debut" at the Geneva Auto Show? Well, as far as I know, Subaru (as a brand) was a no-show at Geneva!

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They may have been present in Geneva, but with no new products. Then the press doesn't cover Subaru.

    Now that's a Duesey. ;-)

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Subaru was indeed at Geneva. They showed the Blitzen wagon, and the rest of the current lineup. However, the all-new Forester was MIA.

    Bob
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    Automotive is only topped by aerospace for environmental variables. But I have great faith in my fellow engineers. Give us enough money and time, and we can solve any problem!!!

    Steve
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