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I like the seat armrests too. Saw them on Forester S turbos in the UK. Wish I had those instead of the console armrest extension; it'd free up a cupholder and I'd keep my Leatherman in the dashtop bin in that case. BTW, that dashtop bin is my favorite in the whole car - I keep so much small stuff there that I could never imagine having a gauge cluster in its place. If a had a turbo in my Forester I'd want a boost gauge on the column like the WRXes have, or on the A-pillar like Pat's GT.
Ed
http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/home.xml
Jim
What's important (to Porsche) is what potential "customers" think, not what those of us sitting on the sidelines think.
Bob
Love those seats, and yes, the armrests too. But I'd be fine with the WRX seats. Either way, looks good.
Couple that with A+ crash test scores for the Impreza, and the Forester should do even better than the first one.
Did I notice the tires? Yep, but did you notice those were studded snow tires? I bet we'll get RWL.
72% say no to the Cayenne SUV, myself included. They even had bad timing, missing the big boom in the market.
I disagree with that last statement, Bob. Short term, sure, Porsche just wants folks willing to pay massive cash for that behemoth. But long term, it kills the aura of the name Porsche. To be honest, I'd take the Boxster S off my list if I got that $100k inheritence we had to spend, maybe get an SLK320 instead.
-juice
I still don't think that Porsche cares one way or another as to whether I like the Cayenne, be it long term or short term. I'll never be able to buy one; I'm not their customer. I'd be much more interested as to how current Porsche and other high-end car owners feel.
Bob
An example. Let's say you see two identical roadsters next to each other. Identical in every way, except one has a Kia label, and the other has a Porsche label. You choose the Porsche, even if it costs a few grand more. Hence even the tiny little label carries a value, not insignificant, either.
Porsche is supposed to be the car pre-teens have posters of on their walls. People desire them, that's what it's all about. You never actually use even 80% of its capabilities.
What I'm saying is owners buy them not only because they like them, but because everyone does.
-juice
It was never intended as a rock crawler, but in high-speed and endurance off-road events, I think it will do well.
Once it proves itself (and I think it will), I think people will see it in a different light.
Bob
-juice
We could look at BMW and Mercedes now, even. Not that Mercedes didn't make trucks, of course, but their SUVs were new, and traditional owners didn't shop in those niches. Did BMW ever do trucks? I dunno. Air planes, though.
X5 and the M class have been lucrative, at least. Both still sell well, even with all the competition.
But then again, both have poor reliability. M-class dragged Mercedes below many US makes, and the X5 will surely hurt BMW, given it's 14 recalls so far. Neither brand can brag about reliability any more, that has to hurt.
So, short-term profit is up. Market share was saved by not having people flock to Range Rovers and Navigators and Escalades.
I'm not sure Porsche would have the same problem. I'm sure their owners own BOTH a Range Rover (or whatever truck they want) and a 911 or Boxster.
-juice
It will certainly create interest in the Porsche name, if for no other reason than all the controversy the Cayenne has stirred up. It will probably generate showroom traffic. People may just go to the showroom to look at the Cayenne, and end up buying a Boxster. Who knows...
Bob
Maybe they surveyed existing owners, and I'd be curious to see what they think.
Then there is the ego of the CEO. Look at Piech, coming up with goofy names like Tuareg and Phaeton, almost as if to prove that he could sell an ice maker to eskimos.
-juice
Bob
-juice
I agree, the looks are pretty ordinary.
I'm really looking forward to see how the off-road magazines respond to it.
Bob
The 914 is interesting, because though it was rejected by Porschephiles, it does have a following.
-juice
Right now everybody is just "bench-racing," in making predictions. I'm also not convinced that your 914/VW analogy will hold true. I would think Porsche had learned some lessons from that. For one the 914 was an entry-level Porsche. That, combined with being thought of as a VW, really hurt. The Cayenne is not an entry-level Porsche, and VW is no longer thought of as being an entry-level (only) brand. Their image is much more positive now than it was back in the 1970's.
Bob
They win ever single off-road-rally-suv race there is out there. Are they beating out the competition in sales? Didn't think so.
-mike
Thanks,
Dennis :-p
Bob
Dennis: what are you doing here! Go away, we don't accept mere mortal, plebean Subaru owners here! ;-)
It will be interesting to see where VW goes with theirs. What if it gets the W8? Piech may be playing a smaller role, but I don't see VW sitting around playing 2nd fiddle.
That could hurt Porsche if they did.
-juice
guess I'm greedy? I can't help it... it's an inch longer and 70lb heavier than the EJ series, which if you're keeping score is a *wash* when you factor in the weight of the turbocharger and plumbing.
would have to have a six speed manual, naturally. and reasonable pricing, i.e. about what a WRX costs.
what do you all think the chances of this happening are? even if it's a zillion to one, as long as Subaru makes a MT flat six of some kind, that leaves the door open for me to build my own later.
-Colin
Odds? 100 to 1. They are already at the CAFE limit, so I doubt we'll be seeing bigger engines, especially on that platform.
I'm sure the Legacy and then the Baja would get it first. I doubt the H6 makes it into the Impreza/Forester, given the turbo is coming.
I'll be curious to see the mileage on the Forester turbo, since it's tuned differently than the WRX.
-juice
Bob
Even AWD competitors, like the upcoming Aerio SX and the Matrix AWD don't even come close in displament or power.
If Subaru isn't challenged, I don't see it happening. Besides, if Colin drove a Matrix, Aerio, and Impreza, and wanted throttle response and torque, he likely buy the Subaru.
OK, I'll admit it, I'm being a bean-counting party pooper. Ignore what I say, Patti, bring on the H6 Impreza! The H8 Forester! The supercharged H8 Legacy! The H12 full size pickup!
I need my medication.
-juice
www.porschecayenne.com
Bob
Boy, do those test mules sure look ugly!
-juice
Bob
-juice
I don't want an H8 Legacy or a big truck/suv and would think it is ridiculous to expect Subaru to build one.
It seems 100x more plausible for a flat six Impreza to ever arrive. I'd like one... It would keep me from buying a used 993 C4 for my next car.
-Colin
-juice
Bring on a Impreza 6!
Ken
EZ30 3.0L 24 valve H6 = 1" longer and 75lb heavier than the EJ series four cylinder.
that's considerably less weight gain over the 2.0L turbo than when the body style changed for the 2002 model year.
In case you're not sure about that either, my car weighs 2840lb soaking wet with a steel hood. (I've had mine on the scales a few times at an autocross and seen mid 2700lb.) The WRX sedan has an aluminum hood and weighs 3085.
3100lb with a flat six and AWD is something no one else can come close to today. 2900 would have been even better, sure, but I wouldn't complain if Subaru delivered.
-Colin
Subaru has designated the Impreza as their "performance" line. Should they consider other performance alternatives for the Impreza? Not everyone loves turbo lag; wouldn't an H-6 Impreza be a good alternative to those folks?
Just raising some questions...
Bob
-mike
It's far more interesting than that-- and no, it wasn't unwitting.
The top-level Subaru, the WRX, is a 2.0L turbo because of *past* World Rally regs, assuming that they care about WRC a whole lot more than Group N. (which they do.) If Subaru ceases to produce a 2.0L turbo, they can still use that block and make it turbocharged --and even add AWD if the car wasn't. This is how the Focus WRC, Accent WRC, and 206 WRC all exist. Notice how there aren't any Group N versions of those? Notice how those 3 manufacturers don't care?
Why get rid of a 2.0L turbo? To make room for an H6 impreza to be the top-level trim. They might exist together... maybe. But that doesn't seem too likely because why do you need one when you have the other?
-Colin
I remember when the Camero Z-28 first appeared, many, many years ago. It was a small block high performance car, with not much power down low. Chevy also offered a big-block Camaro for those who love torque.
Bob
That's not what I'm proposing now... I say an H6 Impreza should cost about the same as a WRX.
-Colin
a flat 6 with a turbo on each bank of cylinders?
Oh, man, that would be a german devourer! I'd trade my 6 month old WRX in TOMORROW for that.
aric
-mike
-Brian
Jim
-mike
The car had an EZ30 H6 bored and stroked to 3.2L and it had twin turbos. It made over 800HP on the dyno, or so the ad claimed. Whole bunch of other custom stuff, suspension, STi six speed manual, you name it.
The owner was asking A$100,000 which is about $50,000 US... reasonable IMO if the car actually existed. A little out of my league!
-Colin
-Dennis