Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    Suburbans (many of them, like 15+) brand new sitting right next to the Troopers. Not a Chevy dealer sign in sight. Do you suppose that's what'll happen in the transition? Just found it very interesting.

    Jim
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    It isn't uncommon for a dealer to "rent" space at another local dealer if they have extra space. If he is selling them, perhaps he picked up the Chevy franchise and hasn't gotten the signs yet. Although you will see the Assender popping up sometime at the end of the summer/fall in Isuzu dealers, with a V8 option.

    -mike
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    and yes, the signs coming soon is a possibility. It just seemed like I was seeing a sneak peek. This dealership is called McKinsey Bond Isuzu West, and it's all of 6 months old. You'd think there would have been a business plan in the background already when they started building the thing. Maybe there was, and they still view the Isuzu line as being strong enough to warrant stand-alone dealers well into the future, dunno.

    Jim
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    This is Toyota's new youth-oriented brand.

    Bob

    http://www.toyota.com/html/about/news/archive/press_release/product/docs/2002/20020228scion.jsp
  • cyberpiratecyberpirate Member Posts: 28
    On a different note... Why doesn't Subaru adopt Saturn's pricing policy? I have bought two new Subarus (00 Legacy and 02 Forester) thus far. Each time, I felt cheated. Is it just me, or pretty much this how car dealers run the show?

    -cp-
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Saturn's business operation model is quite interesting. They conducted consumer surveys and found that people disliked haggling and high-pressured car-salesmen the most in car buying experiences. To counter this, they used across-the-board no-haggle pricing and hired people from outside of the car industry (usually people who worked with other people -- teachers, social workers, nurses, etc.) to be salespeople.

    For a person who doesn't like to haggle it's great. However, for a person who knows how to haggle, it's a disappointment.

    Interestingly, my local Subaru dealer (Carlsen Subaru in Redwood City, CA) has flat no haggle pricing -- usually a few hundred dollars over invoice. The salespeople are very laid back and will show you invoice price plus their markup without hesitation.

    Ken
  • tenchijintenchijin Member Posts: 16
    I bought two subarus last year, at almost the same time. I believe I got a very good deal. Many dealerships have established 'internet sales' departments.

    While there may be some marketing gimmick involved with the process, I can tell you that it wasn't advertised, and that I simply requested a quote online and got the 'internet sales manager' to reply.

    We went down, looked at cars, and he told me his pricing up front. It was SUBSTANTIALLY better than MSRP, in some cases at invoice depending on the dealer incentives offered.

    I then used the Edmunds 'true market value' feature, found I was paying quite a bit less than that figure, and went ahead. I only dealt with one person the whole time, via email, phone and visits.

    Now, I'm paying two car payments... and I'm pleased about how it worked out. I strongly suggest people ask around for internet sales depts, and ask a few dealers. One was much better than the other locally.

    Oh yeah, one other nice thing... when I first arrived to look at the cars, he was tied up, but told me to look around the lot, and if any salesman approached to tell him "I'm waiting for xxxx". He said that would scare them away. It was hilarious, and it worked. A salesman would approach, and ask "do you need some help" and I said, "I'm waiting for xxxx". The response was "oh. (sigh). He's that internet guy, right?" And he would walk away without another word.
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Most if not all Subaru buyers are pretty educated. They shop around, and do tons of research on their vehicles before buying. I believe this is why they haven't adopted saturn's no haggle pricing. Saturns pricing is for people who hate cars, hate car shopping and don't really get into their cars or want to have to do research etc. At least that is my take on it.

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    I agree with most of the above comments.

    Saturn pricing is interesting in that relative to the market, it assures the dealer of getting MSRP every time. The only way to make a 'deal' is to demand more on your trade-in. And you'd better, because they are looking to make money there too.

    So in my opinion, Subaru's model is better. If you want to pay MSRP that's fine. Subarus typically do not sell for MSRP in my part of the country. In most parts of the country honestly.

    -Colin
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    WRX SELLS FOR MSRP !

    did you all see SOA news release....impreza the best in crash testing !
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    True, but Saturn's MSRP is supposed to be relatively lower than other manufacturers since there is a no-haggle policy. In fact, Saturn did very poorly their first year in operation because they priced their vehicles too low! Think of their MSRP as a little more than what you can normally get with a little haggling from traditional dealer.

    I also prefer to roll up my sleeves and haggle the best price. I'm all for efficient markets.

    Ken
  • fibber2fibber2 Member Posts: 3,786
    I thought about a Saturn. Visited the dealer and was so turned off by their 'no haggle, laid back attitude', that I left in a huff! Went to the nearby Toyota dealer and took years off my life dickering over a few hundred $$$!!! But glad I bought the Toyota anyhow...

    Steve
  • jeijei Member Posts: 143
    In the Albany NY region, we have our pick of several Subaru dealers. I checked them out in '99 by dropping in, checking stock in the lots and chatting (that's my "walking around" style). The "largest" offered "no haggle pricing", hundreds above invoice - accompanied by the background push for extended warranties, protection packs etc. Bzzzt....not for me.

    I bought my Forester from one of the smaller dealers staffed by car & truck pros who located the right car (at the other "pro" dealer) showed me its faxed invoice, and set up the deal for $200 over without any nonsense. I agree with comments that the Saturn experience is best for buyers who want more reassurance and are much less into research & haggling - and have lower expectations around vehicle design I might add. Subaru folks are more educated & involved around cars than most, I think.

    John
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    a few weeks ago, when I suggested that Subaru may want to consider offering a long-wheelbase version of the Legacy sedan in addition to the standard wheelbase Legacy; patterned on the formula long used by Audi, BMW and Mercedes for their large sedans?

    Well, it looks like Chevy will be offering both long and short wheelbase versions of the Malabu. If GM does this, how long do you think it will be before we see Ford and Dodge copycats? Hmmm, could this be the start of a new trend?

    http://pc99.detnews.com/autosinsider/sneakpeek/index.hbs?myrec=25

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    regret posting this over here... But, as many of you already know, I'm a glutton for punishment. ;)

    Are you ready for a Chrysler truck? There is a rumor that a Chrysler version of the Dodge Ram may be shown at the NY Auto Show. Hey, if Caddy and Lincoln can do it, why not Chrysler too?

    http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b032102.htm

    Bob (taking cover...)
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    No reason not to. They should offer it, in all fairness. Although I'd like to see a full-sized Ramcharger like they sell in Mexico make it back into the line-up. (2-door Ramchargers based on the Ram Pickup are sold in Mehico)

    -mike
  • goldencouple1goldencouple1 Member Posts: 209
    I've seen those Ram SUV's with Chihuahua plates around El Paso. They look like bigger Durangos. El Paso has many interesting vehicles -- like Ford and Chevy car-based mini-pickups. The Brazilian Ford Courrier, if your familiar with that.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    which is built (and sold) in Mexico, is a 2-door model, and only offered in 2WD! As we all know, it was never imported here. I don't know if they've offered a new Ramcharger off of the new-generation Ram pickup yet?

    Also, offered in Mexico (and not here) is a larger medium-duty Dodge Ram 6500, which is comparable to the Ford F-650 and Chevy/GMC 6500 models.

    Bob
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    No way, I love dealer competition. Even without internet pricing or sending emails, one could easily pick up the phone and get a quote. It's very painless, IMHO.

    In NY and NJ, you can get any Subaru for a few hundred over dealer invoice if you just do a little homework. Even a WRX.

    Wait, you can get set pricing. Just become a member of the IMBA for $20.

    -Dennis
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Hmm the picture of the one I saw was 4wd. I'll have to check out if dodge has a mexican homepage.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not sure a Ramcharger would sell that well any more. The behemoth SUV class took a nose dive, look at the Excursion's rebates. Also, it's decidedly back-to-basics and truck-like in a market where customers want car-like and/or luxury.

    I think they missed the boat by 2-3 years. Plus it would kill their CAFE numbers, which are already bad.

    They need to focus on saving the Grand Cherokee, which is suffering badly in sales despite lower prices. Even the Durango is overdue for an update.

    Should Subaru go no-haggle? Not unless they adjust prices 10% or more downward. Their MSRP is too high. VDCs above $32 grand, and most models $25k and higher would keep customers away.

    We have no-haggle dealers here which sell way below MSRP already, so I'll pass.

    Saturn took a $7-9 billion investment, depending on who you ask, and didn't even turn a profit for a decade. GM felt they had something to prove, and while it succeeded it very likely came at the expense of Olds and many other GM products, which are way past due for updates. Now Saturn is getting Opel clones and sharing Ecotec engines with Chevy. So much for being "different". I say GM blew the billions.

    Scion? That's a whole different can of beans. Echo failed here because, face it, it's totally dorky. Goofy styling with a silly center-mounted speedo noone likes. And the Scion models will share this platform, at least some will. They'd better get the styling right.

    Toyota needs more cars like the Matrix, and fewer like the Echo (not more).

    Bob: that's interesting, GM will use the Epsilon chassis in many sizes. Isn't that what the 2005 SUW from Subaru will share? That may mean we'd see different lengths of that SUW, too, though I bet we get only the long wheelbase.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    was never intended for USA consumption. I just visited Dodge's Mexican site, and can't find that vehicle (or the Ram 6500 either). Both may have been casualties of the recent Ram redesign.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm sure it would get 8 mpg, anyway. The Dodge trucks are generally the least efficient already, imagine that behemoth. They'd have to sell a lot of PT Cruisers to offset those CAFE figures, but PT sales are down. A convertible a turbo may help a little.

    -juice
  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    Someone, please explain this to me. See link below. When I bought my 02 MPV, the sticker says Engine from USA, transmission from Japan.



    This article says MPV's & Jag's X-type transmission are the same ? So, Jag's X type getting the trans. from japan or Am I just fooled ?


    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4707&n=157,182&sid=182

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The X-type is a clone to the 2nd generation Modeno/contour with awd added in. It doesn't suprise me at all that the X-type has a tranny from japan.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It may be the same design, but assembled in a different plant. I believe Subaru builds the 2.5l engine in the US and Japan, for example.

    5 speed autos are more and more common now. Honda and even Kia offer them in their vans. I hope Subaru is working on one, too.

    Nice van, BTW. The wife just couldn't get excited about the idea of owning a van, period, but it drives nicely.

    -juice
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    that we hear more about the Legacy freshening?

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Maybe next week at the NY Auto Show?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    we'll probably hear about this week sometime. Does anybody know when (if?) Subaru has scheduled a NY Auto Show press conference?

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    a subscriber to Wards? There's a link here about future Subarus to be produced in Indiana, but is only available to paid subscribers. :((

    Bob<

    http://industryclick.com/microsites/index.asp?srid=10250&magazineid=1004&siteid=26
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It looks like Buick is bring back their famous (or infamous) front fender portholes, from the 1950s.

    I know a lot of people hated these things, but I've always thought these "portholes" as a "Buick" thing, and welcome them back. I've always had a fond spot in my heart for early Buicks. Maybe it's because the first car I ever remember was my dad's '41 Buick Special, or just growing up in the '50s, when Buicks were highly thought of. I don't know...

    I just hope they're "real" porthole vents, and not phoney vents. The other issue is: Premium Buicks (Roadmasters) always had four portholes. Now this new Park Avenue (the current premium Buick) has only three portholes. In the past, only "lesser" Buicks (Super, Century and Special) had three portholes.

    Bob

    http://www.wieck.com/public/*2PV_036087
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    Not bad, though those pimpy wheels have to go. Isn't this car long overdue a redesign, given the recent (in GM terms) redo of the LeSabre?

    Ed
  • big_guybig_guy Member Posts: 372
    Just caught up on the last 60 posts or so . . . and I think the problem with the 914 is that is was more VW than Porsche. The still-born successor to the 914 (called the 916) had more Porsche in it . . . including an H6 boxer engine to give it a lot more punch in the engine bay.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    these off-topic/brand (but still Future Models) discussions should move over here? Or, do you still feel they can/should be discussed here?

    I know some feel they shouldn't be discussed, anywhere. Ever! Please don't feel bad if we ignore you. ;))

    Bob

    rsholland "Subaru Crew Cafe" Mar 25, 2002 10:04am
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I think if we're comparing other models to future Subarus, this thread is fair game. If it's completely unrelated to Subaru, let's try to keep it in the Cafe.

    So for example if we compare AWD systems and turbocharged engines, it's on topic, but if we're talking about Buick portholes, the Cafe is the better place.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    if I posted this link before. It's about future ultra-clean Subaru turbos.

    Bob

    http://www.auto-asia.com/viewcontent.asp?pk=6878
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That article is pretty vague, without many specifics to go by.

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    throttle-by-wire and close-coupled catalysts.

    that's what I got out of it. still will need variable valve timing in my opinion to have a chance with cold-start emissions.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yeah, what do they call the Subaru system available in Japan? When will we get it?

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    AVCS.

    active valve control system. if we get an WRX STi it will have it.

    otherwise, I'd guess we'll get it when Subaru needs it to pass emissions and not a moment sooner.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Why wait? This is exactly the type of thing Subaru needs as everyone else start to offer AWD crossovers. Defend your turf, Subaru!

    And give us more tranny ratios while you're at it.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    on what Subaru might be offering that's new at NY. All the preliminary NY Auto Show preview links don't mention anything new coming from Subaru. The Baja and Forester will be there, but what about the earlier Legacy rumors? Kind of makes you wonder...

    Bob
  • bblachabblacha Member Posts: 160
    Wonder if the Baja in NY show might lose the plastic cladding. Even the Avalanche is losing cladding, saving some $700 in costs. Drop the cladding and use the $bucks to buy an extra tranny ratio!

    --Bart
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    man they need to get on the ball, that is old stuff now, almost all the luxo cars use it even my trooper has had it since 00.

    -mike
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    I'm suprised to hear that Subaru hasn't made more noise about the Legacy facelift. It's gotta be based off of what we already see in Japan, right? How hard could it be to just have one ready for a trade show?

    Ken
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I doubt the cladding on the Baja costs that much. My entire rear bumper fascia was just $150 retail. Figure it costs them $80 or so, times four sides, maybe $320 or so.

    Still, lose the cladding and put $320 into the tranny. Paint-in the two-tone if you must, like the Outback has, but only as an option.

    -juice
  • twrxtwrx Member Posts: 647
    OK we have been over these things many a time but here goes: at my local dealership a salesman who is much into Subarus (rather than the Buicks they also sell) told me yesterday that the Subaru rep had been around recently and told them the following things (both supposedly true):
    1. The WRX STI is a go for next year with very limited numbers to be imported.
    2. The Forester turbo is also a go for the second model year and the engine is the 2.0 from the WRX.

    Comments anyone?
    TWRX
  • barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    in Seattle has said the same about the STI WRX. In fact, they have already begun a waiting list and (as they did w/the WRX) are committed to selling at retail and not doing the Adjusted Market Value thing.

    Stephen
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    STI will be 04MY and I've heard around 1700 sold in the US.

    It makes sens to slap the WRX engine, possibly re-tuned for more low end torque into the forester.

    -mike
  • hypovhypov Member Posts: 3,068
    Hmmmm.... I was told that just yesterday (oil change - both cars) by the dealer. Funny. They were quick to mention the turbo'ed Forester and the STi WRX not ever me asking, and zipped lip when asked of the Legacy. What's with it?
    If nothing comes of the Legacy for MY2003, I'm itching towards a '03 WRX wagon, slushbox - so shoot me. :-)
    I'll forgo the MY2004. Don't like the number '4' (a chinese thing: 4 = die/dead/death).

    -Dave
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