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Comments
..Mike
Bob
http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=252528
It's true that in Japan, auto taxes vary based on engine displacement size. And as necessity breeds invention, Japanese manufacturers have found lots of ways to squeeze out power from tiny engines. Imagine if the US tried to implement that -- all those SUV owners would go bezerk!
Ken
Edmunds likes it, too.
Mike: remember, a Forester could be anywhere from 200-400 lbs lighter than a Legacy. That's a lot of ballast to carry around. If they tune the small turbo just right, to prevent any lag whatsoever, the TT will be the one. If not, a 2.5 turbo on a much lighter vehicle would be my choice, no doubt.
-juice
Make mine dark blue please! ;-)
-Brian
Before the N. America WRX debuted, they said it would get 213 h.p.! ;-)
-Dennis
However, I think the 4EAT needs to be tighter and more responsive.
But, now that I know a MUCH improved Legacy will show up in 2004, I can wait. I only hope they also improve the tranny, and not just add sportshift like the current GT. A sportshift 5EAT or 6MT would have me salivating for 2 whole years!
Again, thanks to all who dug this info up.
-Brett
..Mike
..Mike
-juice
I haven't tried the shiftronic, but do downshift manually with my automatic for quick acceleration, but the gears are a little wide. I do appreciate the MPG the tranny affords me.
-Brett
-Brian
I'm sure it's just a matter of time until we see a 5EAT as it becomes more and more common among the competitors.
Ken
My wife needs the room for the baby gear. Right now we're using the Legacy to haul the baby around, and I use the Forester for Home Depot runs, any "utility" jobs basically.
So you may find that it's convenient for both to be practical in size and shape.
Boxy is better.
-juice
The WRX wasn't just a homerun for Subaru. It was a Mark Meguire-type grand slam! It was a shot clear out of the ballpark. Can we expect similar results from the STi, Forester turbo, and Legacy turbo? Maybe, maybe not...
STi:
This will be a homerun. Will it be a Mequire-type homerun? I doubt it. Why? Simply because so few will be made (and SOLD!). Yes, it will bring more notice to Subaru (as a brand), and will certainly bring people into the showroom. They'll come to see the STi, but will end up buying WRXs. So, that's a good thing, for sure. I don't, however, think it will have the same impact of the original WRX. I call it homerun—with bases empty.
Forester turbo:
I could be wrong, but I suspect this will be the "every man's turbo," much like most Volvo turbos sold. Performance, yes, but more "real-world," day-in, and day-out performance. A homerun? I doubt it; but it will certainly be for extra bases. Double? Triple? We'll just have to wait and see. If it comes as a 2.5, I'd say a triple, otherwise a double.
Legacy turbo:
This could be interesting. We've heard for several years that there will be a Legacy turbo. Most of us have assumed it will be a 2.0, or more recently, a 2.5. Well I wonder? I'd be willing to bet that any Legacy turbo will come Stateside as a $30K+ vehicle. Do you think a 4-cylinder turbo, or 4-cylinder twin-turbo, will fare well with the over $30K sport sedan audience? I'm not so sure. Mercedes has done much better with the 6-cylinder SLK, than with the the supercharged 4-cylinder version. I think to really succeed with a $30K+ sport sedan Subaru will need 6-cylinders. It's just expected in that market. Just like Acura has been struggling (with sales) with the 6-cylinder RL, in a V8 dominated segment, I think Subaru will struggle (a bit) with a 4-cylinder Legacy turbo, amongst 6-cylinder rivals. I say if we get a 2.0 4-cylinder turbo/twin turbo, it will be a double; if it's a 2.5 turbo, a triple with one on base. If we get a 3.0 6-cylinder turbo, it will be a homerun, with two on base!
Bob
While traveling I picked up the current issue of CAR which rated the 2.0XT at 177hp and a 7.9 0-60 IIRC. I don't think that's enough of a jump in power over the N/A EJ25 to justify the expense. I mean, the same drivetrain pumps out 50 more hp in the WRX! At least get it in the 190-200 range - there's a lot more car to move!
Ed (wants power and cargo capacity, is that so wrong?)
Bob
As we discussed over our pints at O'Sheas, North America needs something more than a 2.0 in a Legacy B4-like model. It's that $30K stigma juice was talking about. A 2.5T would certainly close the gap.
A Forester turbo just might be for "every man (or woman)". It would certainly be an engine that would have to have more low-end torque compared to the WRX. That's how they've tuned it in Japan, so let's wait and see.
Ken
I am tired of my OB 4cyl....regret buying it for its lackluster performance though it offers good utility. Don't want to buy WRX becos we have kids need more like an SUV.....OB H6 is again useless that it does not pick up until 4,000 RPM( see edmunds' recent article on the crossover comparison.......compare this with Cross country or audi....gives same torque in 1800 rpm.....need forester turbo !
As we all know, the *premium* Legacy has been neglected way too long. I think in order to reverse that, they will need a turbo vehicle that will have the same impact that the WRX has had, in its market segment. That's why I think an H-6 turbo, not an H-4 turbo, is the better answer.
As much as I agree with juice, in wanting to have this as a sub-$30K vehicle, I just don't think it's going to happen. I think when it hits the market, it will be priced right around the Outback VDC, maybe a bit higher since it will be a turbo. I could see it and the STi coming in around the same price.
Bob
-mike
Seriously, Subaru has pretty much said this is a done deal. The question: 2.0 or 2.5?
Bob
On the future turbos, pricing is everything. The WRX proved that. Some mags had prices forecast up to $28 grand. So actual prices were a pleasanat surprise - it was affordable. You can buy one today for $22.3k, and that's a sedan.
So, whether you're talking Forester or Legacy turbo, it has to be relatively affordable. I say make the turbo engine standard on the XS models in the Forester lineup. Bump prices up by $500, maybe. Right now I know a LOT of people that bought the base model because the upgrade model didn't have a different engine. Maybe it should.
In the Legacy line, I think the turbo should replace the 2.5 GT. Again, maybe let prices go up by $500 or so, not much more.
$500 may sound optimistic, but if you look across GM's lineup, that's what they charge, roughly, to upgrade from a 4 banger to a V6. All right, maybe $1000, but that's it.
Stay below the $30 grand limit, or they'll depend on incentives to sell, and resale will erode.
Remember, Altimas offer 240hp for $22.8k at retail. Accords have 240hp now, too. These are not $30k vehicles, these are similarly priced competitors.
-juice
Bob
I think whatever Subaru does with the Forester turbo will also be a good indicator of how the Legacy turbo will be priced. But again, if Subaru does nothing more than drop the Forester turbo into the new Legacy (a year later), I think that will be somewhat of a letdown. I think the Legacy turbo needs to stand out in some fashion from all other turbos, in terms of performance.
Bob
A 2.5GT is $26,220 at MSRP. Street prices right now are in the $24k range. For a grand more, $27,220, you're in accessible pricing territory, safely below a stripped Bimmer. Unless they add more equipment, maybe 17"s, I still can't see it starting at over $28 grand.
Now let's look at the Forester. $24,420 for an XS premium with a manual tranny. I'd just love to see it at $24,999, even $25,500 would make it a deal. But honestly, it's too small to be in the $26k and up price range, it's a compact after all.
I hope Subaru learned its lesson. People were simply not willing to pay $33 grand for the VDC. Even today, with street prices in the $28k range, sales are down vs. before the H6.
-juice
-mike
Ford sells stability control on the Focus for $400. I realize VTD is also added, but the Bean has free maintenance and it's way, way cheaper.
IMO Subaru has the same problem with the 2.5 GT. By itself, it's a nice car, but the L/SE kind of forces you to think twice. Is it worth $4 grand more for VTD and shiftronic vs. a regular auto? No, even with heated leather.
With a turbo it would, though.
-juice
That being the case, the next-generation Legacy could well be a legit competitor* for the 3-Series.
* = When I say competitor, I mean for 3-Series customers—and their $$
Bob
I think the 2.5 GT needs to be "saved", else it'll suffer slow sales and its failure could even bring the shiftronic down with it.
Obviously, I hope that doesn't happen. A turbo is just the ticket, even if it is the same engine in the Forester. It just needs something to stand out from the L/SE.
The next gen is a whole new can 'o worms. How big will it be? Some (not me) consider the current Legacy a compact. And if it gets much bigger, will it gain weight?
Mass is critical to me. The more weight, the slower the car, the harder it is to stop, the more inertia to overcome when you turn. So, toss in more engine, bigger brakes, bigger wheels and tires, and suddenly yeah, you're talking $30 grand or so.
And then I'm buying a Forester turbo for sure.
-juice
-mike
Reportedly it will debut NOT next fall, but the following fall as an '05 model, which is when the Legacy/Outback are supposed to be redone.
If you think about it, it makes sense. They introduce an all-new vehicle, with an all-new turbo, to gain maximum marketing impact.
Bob
I think only the top-of-the-line models (turbos/H-6s) will break the $30K plateau. I'm sure the more mainstream models will be close to what they are now.
Bob
True about the '05s, but what about the '04s? Another carry-over year, when the '03 2.5GT is selling slowly? The salesman at Fitz said they hadn't sold any yet. We're talking about two more years of slow sales.
-juice
Bob
Jon
My plans for a new car a year down the road has been moved up to like.... yesterday.
Patti, have y'all got one hidden in the closet? ;-)
-Dave
-mike
who has that?
Howz 'bout a bolt on SC?
then again, Sarra is getting me the new car for my b'day to replace the OB, and I'm pretty sure she'll frown after what we went thru. ;-)
Maybe I'll settle for the OB VDC to GT convert... but, I'm not enthusiastic about sun/moon roof it has.
I think I'll think a little bit more.
-Dave
I'd definitely be up for the VDC->GT conversion. At the least it would be a unique vehicle.
-mike
Bob
-mike
-Dave
Bob
-mike
Btw, the VDC's come with an off switch now (since it's second year, IIRC).
Is Canada's 30 anniv. model behind the U.S.? We had 30 anniv. models in '99.
edit: paisan and I thinking the same thing. :-)
-Dennis
-mike
Bob
Bob