Phase 3 for 2004, that's right. I wonder if that's the AVCS, or it's a different block altogether, based on the H6. Do we have more info on that?
Even then, the 2.5 GT needs to be distinct, I don't think it'll have a different engine than the L will have.
Shiftronic is quicker than VW's Tiptronic, at least the 2.5 GT I drove felt a lot quicker than my buddy's Passat wagon 1.8T Tip. Quicker in both ways, accelerating and shifting. The 1.8T engine really needs the manual tranny.
That 30th Anniversary OB sounds interesting. Lots of folks have been asking for the H6 in a simpler model. The Bean is about $26k, so I'd like to see them try to build it for $2 grand less, at least.
Not that I could read Japanese, but looks like it comes in 6MT and no wagon
I wonder if SoA would put in an order for me for a H6 VDC wagon no sun/moon roof, with all the perks of the Outback VDC but with GT spec.
-Dave (wishful thinking).
p/s: went to service the remaining Subie today and checked out the Baja. Couldn't do much with the sales guy leaching on me. Anyone noticed (maybe my imagination) that the seat on the Baja is higher. I'd lowered the seat as low as it could go but it still felt high. Oh, and he asked what I was looking to buy, and I said a 2.5l Turbo Legacy GT. He promptly took the information down and said that he'll call me when they come in, not when they do come in, when they come in. Hmmm.......
I tried to check out the SOJ site for the Legacy S401, but it's too slow with the dial up modem. I'll check the specs when I get back on my DSL line, but all I can tell is that they're making only 400 of these vehicles.
Subaru in Canada is celebrating 30 years of all wheel drive. Signage in all the dealerships. The OB anniversary special will be monochrome Titanium, H6 and cloth seats. Canada and the US often have different variations ie. the Canadian Legacy SE for '02, no LL Bean in Canada, etc. This year's SE in Canada doesn't have the moonroof, has heated seats and comes in silver, red or black.
Question of 5 speed for the H6 has come up often... latest story from Subaru Japanese engineers is that the H6 has too much torque for the Subaru 5 speed.
<< According to Reuters, the Japanese newspaper said the Indiana-based joint venture, 49% owned by Isuzu, would become a fully owned subsidiary of Fuji from which Isuzu would contract SUV supply. A rebadged Isuzu-designed Rodeo SUV built at the JV plant has previously been supplied to Honda for sale in North America as the Passport. >>
As much as I would love to see a legit Subaru off-roader, I sure hope they aren't thinking about putting a Subaru logo on a Rodeo or Axiom! Many times I've stated my distaste of badge-engineered vehicles. If Subaru is thinking about this, it will come back to haunt them. Guarantied!
If 210 ft.lbs. is too much for the 5-speed, then why does the WRX still get it, when it gets 217? Of course, the boys at i-club do seem to report a lot of tranny failures. Hmmm. Where did this information come from? Because if it's directly from Subaru, it's basically an admission that their transmission is inadequate for use in the WRX.
Did you see the Mazda 6 shown at the Paris show? 280hp and AWD.
If Subaru doesn't offer a Legacy turbo sooner than Bob mentioned, Mazda may just beat them to market. In fact at this point in time, my guess is they will.
OK, anyone spare $2400? Actually, I need the clutch and the JDM hood, too, so it's more like $3500, plus installation.
for an '04 Legacy turbo, but it sounds like, from what I've read lately, it will be an '05 model.
Yeah, that new Mazda AWD looks impressive. Isn't '05 when the AWD version debuts, or did I read that wrong? If so, the new Legacy will also be hitting the streets around the same time.
I dunno, at this point it's probably just a forecast anyway. But Mazda may get here first, and shame on Subaru if they do.
I'm still a little concerned about long-term reliability on the new 6. The 626 was great for the first couple of years, then fell apart. Funny thing is I looked at the CR ratings closely, and they sort of forecast it, pretty darn accurate also.
Interestingly, they rank a little higher than Subies at first, but then don't hold up as well in the long run. I'm comparing the 626 to the Legacy, BTW.
I've learned to care more about reliability after the warranty expires, and the hard way. Hard as in $2500 worth.
I forgot that you had a bad experience with your 626.
Mazda really fell onto hard times, and they've been a while coming back.
Both Mazda and Nissan seem to be on the mend with regard to design and product offerings.
For that matter, the Outback is to Subaru what the iMac is to Apple - Subaru was in a bad way for a while too, although it never impacted quality they way it did with some other makes.
Subaru definately has their work cut out for them, with all the competition in the cross-over space.
no offense but don't project your own experiences too far. there are no driveline problems reported on any year of 626 on Carpoint, and most years are 5/5 on the reliability.
I have two friends with 626s, one is an '88 with 175k and the other is a '92 with 130k. no serious problems on either, nothing but routine maintenance. all mechanical things will wear out with time, and given percentage of them will suffer failures.
I was just reading the article on ApexJapan about a test drive of the STI Turbo Forester. One comment really struck me: the turbo Forester gets 32.5mpg combined. How'd they do that?! On a car that gets 216hp and 227ft lbs. at that. That's better than the NA 2.5l engine.
never touching boost, a turbocharged engine has a much lower Brake Specific Fuel Consumption due to its low compression ratio. in this specific case, the fuel consumption is going to be lower already, all other things being equal, because 2.0L is smaller than 2.5L.
however that said, 32.5mpg overall sounds pretty optimistic. too good to be true, but better MPG than a 2.5L n/a engine when driving cautiously-- sure, I can see that.
What if FHI just took over all of Isuzus SUV line? I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's a marriage made in heaven. Isuzu doesn't sell any cars, and Subaru doesn't sell any trucks. If they merged or FHI took over Isuzus light trucks, Subaru would kick major butt in the niche markets.
The WRX may have 217lbs of torque, but how much of the range is actually 217lbs? My guess is that it's not as large a range as you find in the H6. So you'd be hitting that torque range for longer periods of time in the H6 as opposed to the ej20. Hence the resistance to use the fragile 5MT.
Is that a 4.01l engine? That would be nice. It's a nice car but without an H6 in it, it's still just a 4banger, and will never sell in mass quantities here in the US. Anything legacy sized or larger needs a 6 in it as a matter of perception.
But those are probably factors too, they dial back compression for forced induction. Stock is something like 10:1, right? I bet that turbo is closer to 8:1.
So with the same fuel mix, it's using 20% less fuel at the same pre-boost rpm. Plus, the displacment is 20% smaller, so in theory you could get better mileage.
But once you're in the boost, it's cramming more air and fuel in there, all bets are off.
mike: that's an interesting idea. The only thing is, Subaru has no experience with trucks. They'd have to bring someone in to manage that product line. Better than the current Isuzu marketing team.
But it sure could make them a full-line manufacturer if they're going that way. Big frames, pickups, diesels, TOD, low ranges, etc. There is no overlap.
How do you feel about a 2.5l H6 turbo? In other words, a smaller bore H6, to deal with the cooling better.
2.5L H6 turbo would work. I loved the 2.7l H6 in the XT6. People would focus on the H6turbo, rather than the 2.5L portion of that. Similar to the VR6 models of VWs, even though they are small displacement, people say "look it's got a v6"
My feeling is that Isuzu's marketing screwed them over big time, not the products themselves. If FHI/SOA were to take over the SUV division of Isuzu utilizing the Isuzu engineers/produtction/etc but put a subaru marketing spin on it, they could really turn it into something good. For instance Troopers in the US have had power retractable mirrors since 1992 and still sells the largest moonroof of any manufacturer of SUVs. If Subaru was running the ad campaign they would have had Crocodile dundee getting chased by a big honkin american SUV and then folding in the mirrors to narrowly escape it. Or have like 10 people hanging out the moonroof where only 1 could hang out the opposing SUV's roof.
Yeah, it's strange. My wife's old 626 had a 2.5l V6, and our boxer engines actually produce more torque and more power with 4 cylinders. But lots of people still just want a 6.
The VR6 is 2.8l, not big but not really small, either.
Mazda made a 1.8l (!) V6 that went in the MX-3, remember those? Smooth as silk but just 130hp.
with Subaru taking over Isuzu SUVs and pickups, per say. I do have a problem with them taking over the existing Isuzu vehicles and just sticking Subie badges on them, however.
They may have to do that for the short term, but in time I would expect to see "traditional" Subaru *signature* features such as boxer engines, etc., but in industrial-strength proportions.
Taking over the Isuzu SUV and pickup lineup would certainly allow Subaru to get into this market pretty easily, and cheaply. I've said for a long time that SUVs and pickups would be a logical evolution (direction) for Subaru to pursue. I just don't think the current product mix that Isuzu offers is right for Subaru, just as it wasn't right for Honda or Acura. In order to survive, the products clearly have to have *Subaru* stamped on the engineering to be successful.
I'm not sure that the Boxers would work in trucks, just cause they'd be so wide. Heck there isn't much wrong with the current engines/tranny's in the Isuzu-line. I bet that Subaru could add some nice stuff though, better AWD systems to start.
That would be tricky to keep their consistent image while still selling live axles and non-boxers.
Maybe they could team up and have Isuzu engineer a diesel boxer. The engine bays are pretty roomy. It could be an 4.0l H8 or something. Stretch the engine length-wise, not width-wise. 5.0l H10? :-)
But I do think it would have to have a 4 wheel indy suspension. I know that would be a sticking point with paisan. Maybe some heavy duty struts all around instead of the multilink in the rear.
Imagine the current Trooper, but with a wider stance. Indy suspension for better space efficiency, you could probably add a 3rd row seat right there, with lower lift-over height.
I dunno, though, it would be very hard to remain consistent. Maybe they'd need a seperate division after all.
I don't think width is problem. The bigger problem, as I see it, might be poorer angles of approach, because the engine hangs out in front of the front axle.
There are ways around that. Subaru has experimented with sticking the front axle under the engine. I've seen pictures of that. If you recall, that was rumored to be the Outback H-6 layout, but it never materialized. Another possibility is to do what Honda does with their H-6 Gold Wing motorcycle, and put the whole transmission under the engine, and not behind it. Granted, you lose some of the lower center of gravity that the current boxer engines have, but it is a solution.
My point is simply this, Subaru, like Porsche and a few others, is so clearly defined (in the minds of the public) with very specific engineering charactorisics, that to introduce a Subaru product with conventional engineering could really be counter-productive to the marketing of the Subaru *brand.*
Comments
Someone posted in the tri-state about wanting an aftermarket Legacy turbo.
http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=256317&referrerid=767
-Dennis
http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/s401/
This model reportedly will show up at the Toyko Motor Show, which is coming up shortly. I bet the Forester Cross Sports also debuts then.
Bob
Phase 3 for 2004, that's right. I wonder if that's the AVCS, or it's a different block altogether, based on the H6. Do we have more info on that?
Even then, the 2.5 GT needs to be distinct, I don't think it'll have a different engine than the L will have.
Shiftronic is quicker than VW's Tiptronic, at least the 2.5 GT I drove felt a lot quicker than my buddy's Passat wagon 1.8T Tip. Quicker in both ways, accelerating and shifting. The 1.8T engine really needs the manual tranny.
That 30th Anniversary OB sounds interesting. Lots of folks have been asking for the H6 in a simpler model. The Bean is about $26k, so I'd like to see them try to build it for $2 grand less, at least.
-juice
speaking of celebrations...
it's my birthday; someone buy me a subie
-Dave
Actually, we have more than 365 Daves so I should be more specific:
Happy Birthday Hypov!
-juice
-Dennis
I wonder if SoA would put in an order for me for a H6 VDC wagon no sun/moon roof, with all the perks of the Outback VDC but with GT spec.
-Dave (wishful thinking).
p/s: went to service the remaining Subie today and checked out the Baja. Couldn't do much with the sales guy leaching on me. Anyone noticed (maybe my imagination) that the seat on the Baja is higher. I'd lowered the seat as low as it could go but it still felt high. Oh, and he asked what I was looking to buy, and I said a 2.5l Turbo Legacy GT. He promptly took the information down and said that he'll call me when they come in, not when they do come in, when they come in. Hmmm.......
-juice
-Dave
-mike
Bob
P.S. Anybody got any extra dry towels? Too much drool here (lucky it's hot here, helps in the drying process)
Ed
-juice
Dave -- happy b-day!
Ken
Question of 5 speed for the H6 has come up often... latest story from Subaru Japanese engineers is that the H6 has too much torque for the Subaru 5 speed.
A quote from the site:
<< According to Reuters, the Japanese newspaper said the Indiana-based joint venture, 49% owned by Isuzu, would become a fully owned subsidiary of Fuji from which Isuzu would contract SUV supply.
A rebadged Isuzu-designed Rodeo SUV built at the JV plant has previously been supplied to Honda for sale in North America as the Passport. >>
As much as I would love to see a legit Subaru off-roader, I sure hope they aren't thinking about putting a Subaru logo on a Rodeo or Axiom! Many times I've stated my distaste of badge-engineered vehicles. If Subaru is thinking about this, it will come back to haunt them. Guarantied!
Bob
Too much torque for the 5 speed? Then give us the 6 speed from the STi. We wouldn't object to that.
-juice
Ed
-Dennis
-juice
-Colin
Is the clutch from the STi's 6 speed any different?
-juice
http://wardsauto.com/ar/auto_goodies_await_mazda/index.htm
If Subaru doesn't offer a Legacy turbo sooner than Bob mentioned, Mazda may just beat them to market. In fact at this point in time, my guess is they will.
OK, anyone spare $2400? Actually, I need the clutch and the JDM hood, too, so it's more like $3500, plus installation.
-juice
Yeah, that new Mazda AWD looks impressive. Isn't '05 when the AWD version debuts, or did I read that wrong? If so, the new Legacy will also be hitting the streets around the same time.
Bob
I'm still a little concerned about long-term reliability on the new 6. The 626 was great for the first couple of years, then fell apart. Funny thing is I looked at the CR ratings closely, and they sort of forecast it, pretty darn accurate also.
Interestingly, they rank a little higher than Subies at first, but then don't hold up as well in the long run. I'm comparing the 626 to the Legacy, BTW.
I've learned to care more about reliability after the warranty expires, and the hard way. Hard as in $2500 worth.
-juice
Mazda really fell onto hard times, and they've been a while coming back.
Both Mazda and Nissan seem to be on the mend with regard to design and product offerings.
For that matter, the Outback is to Subaru what the iMac is to Apple - Subaru was in a bad way for a while too, although it never impacted quality they way it did with some other makes.
Subaru definately has their work cut out for them, with all the competition in the cross-over space.
no offense but don't project your own experiences too far. there are no driveline problems reported on any year of 626 on Carpoint, and most years are 5/5 on the reliability.
I have two friends with 626s, one is an '88 with 175k and the other is a '92 with 130k. no serious problems on either, nothing but routine maintenance. all mechanical things will wear out with time, and given percentage of them will suffer failures.
-Colin
The '88 and '92 were the previous gen, before the V6 came along in '93.
Still, was it a coincidence that the things started going at about the time CR reported lower ratings in reliability? Could be, dunno.
-juice
however that said, 32.5mpg overall sounds pretty optimistic. too good to be true, but better MPG than a 2.5L n/a engine when driving cautiously-- sure, I can see that.
-Colin
That would make it 26 mpg U.S.
-Colin
I'm not a fan of rebadged engineering myself.
-mike
-mike
-mike
Just give us some power!
-Dennis
So with the same fuel mix, it's using 20% less fuel at the same pre-boost rpm. Plus, the displacment is 20% smaller, so in theory you could get better mileage.
But once you're in the boost, it's cramming more air and fuel in there, all bets are off.
mike: that's an interesting idea. The only thing is, Subaru has no experience with trucks. They'd have to bring someone in to manage that product line. Better than the current Isuzu marketing team.
But it sure could make them a full-line manufacturer if they're going that way. Big frames, pickups, diesels, TOD, low ranges, etc. There is no overlap.
How do you feel about a 2.5l H6 turbo? In other words, a smaller bore H6, to deal with the cooling better.
-juice
My feeling is that Isuzu's marketing screwed them over big time, not the products themselves. If FHI/SOA were to take over the SUV division of Isuzu utilizing the Isuzu engineers/produtction/etc but put a subaru marketing spin on it, they could really turn it into something good. For instance Troopers in the US have had power retractable mirrors since 1992 and still sells the largest moonroof of any manufacturer of SUVs. If Subaru was running the ad campaign they would have had Crocodile dundee getting chased by a big honkin american SUV and then folding in the mirrors to narrowly escape it. Or have like 10 people hanging out the moonroof where only 1 could hang out the opposing SUV's roof.
I'd have no problem buying a subazu.
-mike
The VR6 is 2.8l, not big but not really small, either.
Mazda made a 1.8l (!) V6 that went in the MX-3, remember those? Smooth as silk but just 130hp.
Isuzubaru? :-)
-juice
They may have to do that for the short term, but in time I would expect to see "traditional" Subaru *signature* features such as boxer engines, etc., but in industrial-strength proportions.
Taking over the Isuzu SUV and pickup lineup would certainly allow Subaru to get into this market pretty easily, and cheaply. I've said for a long time that SUVs and pickups would be a logical evolution (direction) for Subaru to pursue. I just don't think the current product mix that Isuzu offers is right for Subaru, just as it wasn't right for Honda or Acura. In order to survive, the products clearly have to have *Subaru* stamped on the engineering to be successful.
I do admit, it has tantalizing possibilities.
Bob
-mike
Maybe they could team up and have Isuzu engineer a diesel boxer. The engine bays are pretty roomy. It could be an 4.0l H8 or something. Stretch the engine length-wise, not width-wise. 5.0l H10? :-)
But I do think it would have to have a 4 wheel indy suspension. I know that would be a sticking point with paisan. Maybe some heavy duty struts all around instead of the multilink in the rear.
Imagine the current Trooper, but with a wider stance. Indy suspension for better space efficiency, you could probably add a 3rd row seat right there, with lower lift-over height.
I dunno, though, it would be very hard to remain consistent. Maybe they'd need a seperate division after all.
-juice
There are ways around that. Subaru has experimented with sticking the front axle under the engine. I've seen pictures of that. If you recall, that was rumored to be the Outback H-6 layout, but it never materialized. Another possibility is to do what Honda does with their H-6 Gold Wing motorcycle, and put the whole transmission under the engine, and not behind it. Granted, you lose some of the lower center of gravity that the current boxer engines have, but it is a solution.
My point is simply this, Subaru, like Porsche and a few others, is so clearly defined (in the minds of the public) with very specific engineering charactorisics, that to introduce a Subaru product with conventional engineering could really be counter-productive to the marketing of the Subaru *brand.*
Bob