Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If subaru wanted to go full-line, they'd have to be open to other suggestions and various different configurations. You simply can't expect the same type of system that works well in a sports car to work in a truck. If you think that all the subaru systems would work on a larger scale that is a bit narrow minded no? I dunno I just take the good from all different aspects and use em what they are good at.

    The boxer engines should work fine in a truck actually now that I think of it. The reason they are pushed so far forward is that the front diffy is incorporated into the tranny. If they put a boxer with a traditional tranny and transfercase they could build em just like current SUVs are built, no?

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But to keep a consistent marketing strategy, they'd have to keep the center of gravity low.

    But really, if the H6 fits in a Legacy, a Trooper could probably fit an H10 easily.

    Maybe a gas 4l H8, and a diesel 5l H10 for heavy duty applications. Can you imagine?

    VTD AWD, beefed up of course. Keep the TOD power split display and maybe even add the ability to lock the axles together. Better yet, let the driver adjust the settings manually, anywhere from 20/80 to 80/20. Set it to 50/50 and they lock together.

    Sound good?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Again, because the Subaru brand image is so closely tied to *unique* engineering (and marketing) solutions, offering just another *me-too* vehicle will work against them, IMO.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I agree that is has to be unique, a niche SUV.

    Noone has a boxer engine in an SUV, right? Even Porsche is using a front mounted V8.

    Sacreligious, but I digress...

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    if you add 2 cylinders, becomes a 3.8L H-6; if you add 4 cylinders, it becomes a 5.0L H-8, both of which would be ideal truck engines.

    Bob
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    Not the best fit IMO. See Bob's rationales.

    Ed
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Here we're talking about Subie trucks/SUVs, and I didn't bring up the subject?! The stars must not be in proper alignment... ;)

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    But I'd still argue that using a traditional tranny-T-case would be the way to go or your angles of approach and departure will be messed up. The Boxer will already have a lower CG than a V design so you are covered there. I'd also consider using GM ATs since they are relatively bulletproof and modular in design which would save a lot of $.

    Also they'd need to tune the engines for much more low-end grunt. Even the 3.0H6 doesn't have a low-enough torque curve, IMHO.

    I'd see more of the styling cues of the subarus ported over to the Subazu truck line, AWD/TOD on all the SUVs with the TOD Low-range, and on the Axiom an Indy rear. Rodeo I'd convert back to 2-door with soft and hard tops, and solid front axle with lockers front and rear. Subizu could make it into a Jeep Rubicon Killer. Subizu could make a wider longer version of the late 2002 Trooper and set that up as a TLC killer.

    I'd conceed the V-engines for H-engines if they'd conceed the all-in-one transfercase and solid axles. :)

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But the EJ engines series is being phased out. They may be gone by 2005.

    So by the time any SUV came out, we'd be talking EZ series. That's why I scaled up from the 3.0l H6, to H8 and H10 configurations.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    No give no the solid axle, eh?

    Maybe for the HD line. At least one "mainstream" model (I guess Axiom) would have to go soft, to pay the bills.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    won't fly either; not for Subie buyers.

    Just as Toyota, Honda and Nissan has done, they draw their core buyers from existing customers within their respective brands. In order for Subaru to be successful, they would have to do the same thing. They wouldn't count on many (if any) solid axle Dodge Ram customers to come aboard the Subaru truck-train.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The idea is not to sell to current subie owners. The whole idea is to reel in fresh new customers, expand their base of owners. The "traditional" owners of subies would not want leather in their cars either, but they offer it.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Would help the Rodoe take on the Rubicon. With Japanese reliability! :) Remember Subaru always goes for the niche market, so going after the traditional off-roaders and back-to-basics buyers would definitely be a plus.

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    quote: How do you feel about a 2.5l H6 turbo? In other words, a smaller bore H6, to deal with the cooling better.

    sounds like you read the thread Bob linked to last week on the iClub where "Jon [in CT]" presented his own theories in such a way that they might have seemed like fact.

    I seriously doubt 2.5L H6 is in the works. I doubt even more that if a >2.0L turbo is in Subaru's immediate future that a 2.5L H6 would be the choice. I suspect he is basing his ideas on the fact that VW/Audi's "inline vee" 18-degree 2.8L V6 used a few millimeters smaller pistons for the 2.7L biturbo version. While it is definitely a narrow bore-spaced block just as Subaru's 3.0L EZ30, I hardly think it wise to assume Subaru would *NEED* to reduce displacement to make that engine viable for turbocharging.

    I could go on but I've got work to do, apparently. *sigh*

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I don't know about that, they can afford leather as they get better jobs and need something to move up to.

    The car that busted Subaru out of its niche was the WRX. That's good and bad, of course, our community isn't as tight nit as before, IMO. Plus lots of young punks are crashing and increasing insurance rates, not to mention eating transmissions for lunch with high rpm launches at the track.

    But the WRX follows all the Subaru characterisitcs - boxer, AWD, full indy suspension.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Yes, I read that thread, and found the theories intersting. Subaru has always been conservative about offering doses of power, so I did sort of agree with most of the logic there.

    Questions is, how will they get more torque out of a 2.0l EZ series engine? Twin turbos, maybe?

    The EZ series is very compact, the H6 is about the same length as the old H4. That might limit displacment in future models.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    slowly. You're not going to get Detroit pickup owners to convert at first. Any good salesman knows your best (easiest) customers to win over, are existing clients. Sooner or later, others will too see the wisdom, and come aboard.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Our Legacy has a 104.3" wheelbase. They'll stretch it for the SUW, but you have to wonder how big that will go.

    The current Rodeo is 106.4", the Troopa 108.7". Those are more capable of underpinning a large truck. Again, no overlap.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    is definitely interested in the truck market, otherwise the Baja wouldn't exist. Being as conservative (and cautious) as they are, they are just tippy-towing into the market. I'd love to see their product portfolio 10 years from now. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the Baja evolves (or spins off) a legit truck—but something completely different from what is considered a traditional truck.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Traditional now is few and far between! Unfortunately there are very few back-to-basics trucks. I think that subaru could really catch something good by producing a back-to-basics with some new technology thrown in for good measure and a dose of great marketing.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    *traditional* in terms of engineering, and truck building, not luxury content. So-called *work trucks* exist. However, only contractors want them.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think subaru could capitalize on their "rugged" "outdoorsy" "hunting/fishing" background and work in some really tough offroaders into their market. A truck of the burly fisherman/hunter that kicks the pants off the Jeeps/Yukons/etc would work in nicely.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I take issue with the new subaru commercial that stereotypes all Off-road SUV drivers and "wild and crazy" plowing down trees and what not. This simply isn't true most off-roaders treat the forest with much respect. Any thoughts on that bob? (the picture your favorite explorer ;) )

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I've said for a long time, that I'd like to see Subaru build a "Wrangler-Eater,"

    It may(?) happen when Hummer offers their H4*, a few years down the road. Could it use some Subaru running running gear? I wouldn't rule it out.

    * = the next Hummer is to be the H3, which will use some Trailblazer stuff. It's rumored that a smaller still (Wrangler-like) H4 will follow.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    << I take issue with the new subaru commercial that stereotypes all Off-road SUV drivers and "wild and crazy" plowing down trees and what not. This simply isn't true most off-roaders treat the forest with much respect. Any thoughts on that bob? (the picture your favorite explorer ;) ) >>

    the driver looks remarkably like you. ;)

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    haaa!

    But anyone who knows me knows I wouldn't be caught dead in an exploder! ;)

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that's like rubbing salt in the wound. ;)

    The first time I saw that commercial, I screamed: "PAISAN!" Then I realized it was a Ford, and said "Nah..."

    I think Subie marketing folks have been hanging out here at Edmunds...

    Bob
  • tincup47tincup47 Member Posts: 1,508
    I had the same initial reaction ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Nissan is doing the back-to-basics thing, look at the XTerra and Frontier. But I don't find either of those particularly appealing, despite good reliability.

    Dodge and GM trucks are still traditional. Only Ford has gone indy, and even then it's still full-framed. Toyota is mostly traditional, too, except for the DOHC iForce engines.

    So really, Subaru wouldn't have much competition. They could capture the entire import segment for non-traditional trucks.

    I find that commercial hilarious. They're really only arguing that the Outback rides smoother and is quieter than SUVs. They exxagerated a little for effect.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    They are making a bold statement about off-road SUVs. It's just that no one is going to go out and start whining like other groups would about it. Kinda like bashing men, you can get away with it :( Shame on Subaru.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I was talking more in terms of SUVs not pickups. The Xterra is pretty much it, even that though is pretty poor performance. I'm thinking like Wrangler/Suburban/Bronco/Jimmy type qualities, where they could be ordered w/o rear seats and with vinyl interior etc.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    It falls in line with their "tread lightly" partnership.

    Looks at how many truck commercials show mud slinging and basically tearing up whatever trail they're using. I think it's a clever counter punch.

    Kind of like the CR-V commercial that shows extreme sports guys wiping out, hinting that they are XTerra owners.

    XTerra is not the only truck SUV, it's just that most trucky SUVs are failing miseraby in the market - Vitara, Tracker, Sportage, etc.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    and quite in-capable off-road.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    All the manufacturers are part of Tread Lightly. I thought that subaru was above stereotypes, having marked to the alternate lifestyle and all, but I guess they too can't help it.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Are they? I doubt it, some of the Built Ford Tough ads have mud spraying all over the place. GM's too.

    They are basically saying, look, you're not going rock hopping, so why not get a comfy ride that can still get you where you need to go, quietly and comfortably?

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Isn't necessarily not Treading Lightly, so long as you stay on the trails you are "treading lightly" The Tread Lightly campaign is based on staying on the trails and NOT MOWING DOWN TREES like the people opposed to offroading think that everyone who goes out on the trails does. Most people on the trails pick up trash, PLANT TREES, and in general do not impact the enviroment.

    -mike
  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    I dislike that commercial because it involves repugnant stereotyping, but I wonder if Paisan's characterization of off-roaders holds up outside your region. In the Upper Midwest we think of your Pine Barrens trails as "roads" and we drive them frequently. Off-roading here involves driving where there is virtually no road at all, just driving all over the land, and I don't think many of the people who do that are much concerned about "treading lightly."

    Actually, this isn't a hot issue because the rise of All-Terrain Vehicles has attracted almost all those guys who genuinely enjoy bombing around off roads, throwing mud. Now it is the ATVs that are doing most of the damage and attracting the most controversy.

    Steve (in MN)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You mean like Tree Killah? ;-)

    -juice
  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    They've tried to set up trails in some state forests where these ATVs could run without chewing up the environment, but it has been a disaster so far: horrible ruts, flattened foilage, general ugliness. The machines continue to be terribly popular and just as controversial. You loves 'em or you hates 'em.

    Steve
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Actually is quite the opposite. When he whacked a tree down in Uwharrie, NC, the next time he came down, he brought a new tree to plant.

    I can't speak for MN, but in NC, VA, UT, CO, NY, NJ, PA, etc it's highly illegal and un-called for to be off the trails. If offroaders see you pulling stunts like that they generally will call you out on it.

    -mike
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    in PA there is a great Offroad Vehicle Park. An old strip-mine owner rents out his property and had trails put in. They have guides and everything. It's great to go there for the day.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Glad to hear Doug did that. My bad.

    Around here, there's nothing left that isn't paved or developed. Old motocross sites in College Park have become Home Depots. The beach is about the only place left.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I don't know if you've ever met Paisan, but at quick glance, that driver looks a lot like Mike. ;)

    Bob
  • lilbluewgn02lilbluewgn02 Member Posts: 1,089
    "I'm a Lumberjack and I'm OK...."

    -Pining for the fjords in Florida!-
  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    Things are more wild and free here, and much wilder again in the Great Plains. A lot of folks just drive where they want to go, road or no. I completely believe that the folks you offroad with are ethical. I'm just saying in this region "off-roading" would be understood to be running off gravel roads, and it happens a lot. Again, the ones with the bad name for that now are not in trucks or SUVs, they use ATVs.

    Steve
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Wouldn't that be tresspassing? Shouldn't the people being tresspassed on be pressing charges?

    -mike
  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    We have a ton of public land, and much of this happens on it. State forests. State parks. National forests. National parks. BLM land. USFWS land. Bureau of Rec land. State wildlife areas. There's just a whole lot of land nobody can watch very closely. And then, sometimes people run amok on private land, too, but that is very hard to police.

    Steve
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    ATVs suck. Motorcycle touring on backroads is the way!


    http://www.adport.com/backroads/


    -Colin

  • storytellerstoryteller Member Posts: 476
    And this is all fairly OT. We got here by talking about that Subie ad with the motorhead in the Explorer. My original point was that the ad--which I find too smug--makes more sense here than it does in NJ, MD, NY, MA et al because so many guys here use vehicles to boldy go where no man nor road has gone before. I'd love to go "off-roading" with Paisan's friends.

    Steve
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Two wheels are fun. I think when we retire we'll ride across the country. Or at least all the way down the east coast.

    -juice
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