what happens when you graft the back of a Forester onto the front of an Aztek and mimic the name of a certain "sport utility wagon"? Answer, you get a Mitsubishi Outlander.
Note: White STI has a different rear wing, than blue STI (and what was shown at Paris), and it also has retractable roof vent. They must be doing some aerodynamic testing, to see which rear wing works best, since Nurburgring is known as a high-speed track.
Speaking of the Traviq, do you think when Subaru introduces their new 7-passenger crossover in a few years, that it will replace the current Traviq? If so, do you think it will be called the Traviq, or have different name altogether?
Answer #1: it should replace the Traviq when it arrives, to keep a consistent range of cars globally, and to stop the embarassing badge engineering that has infiltrated Subaru.
Answer #2: it'll depend on sales. If it's selling well, the big SUW would be risky given large cars don't sell well in Japan. The Traviq and whatever updates it gets is designed for Europe's streets, which are more like Japan's. So not only will it stay, Subaru will sell the next generation too.
At least Opel is one of GM's better divisions. They and Holden are the best IMO.
OK, time for a radical idea. I'm older and wiser now so I can come up with those (LOL, yeah right!).
Bob pointed out there is an H6 base Outback in Oz. I say make the H6 the ONLY engine in the Outback.
Why? To better distinguish it. Gas mileage is almost identical. The SUV image calls for 6 cylinders, period. Heck, the 4Runner and Explorer offer 8. Time to step up.
Also, the L/SE costs a grand less and has the moonroofs, so the OB only offer the AWP and mostly cosmetic goodies. Nothing substantial to distinguish it any more. Enter the H6.
Furthermore, make the H6 exclusive to the Outback line. The Legacy line will get a turbo. The Baja is sort of on the fence, but actually I'd pair it up with the Outback and make it H6 only.
fewer models too, and Subaru always offers too many different flavors. Just look at their Japanese home-market lineup.
I just think they will need an H-4 in the lineup, but I hope you're right. It may take several years for that to evolve, however. Maybe with the new model in '05?
I suspect that VDC will make it into all Subie automatics at some point.
Honestly, you don't think the L/SE is stealing away lots and lots of those base Outback sales? I bet it will - significantly.
I'd love to see the break down of sales once the 2003 model year for Q4. I bet Outback sales drop 10%, and L sales go up by that much. Maybe 20%.
5 speed fans sort of tend towards the GT for sportiness anyway. Or the L, if they are shopping price. So maybe it would be OK for all Outbacks to be auto even.
I agree, I bet more SE's sell in '03 than the base Outbacks. But, most sales figures are reported as TOTAL Legacy/Outback, not by specific model (vdc, limited, se, etc.) So, I'm not sure we'll know for sure how much sales are affected.
I'd rather see VTD across the board than VDC. No need to raise costs on other models with it.
Sounds good Papa Bear, even simpler than my lineup.
Think about it - noone would ever, ever say any of the Subies is underpowered. The Legacy SE is priced so low that it's competing with the 123hp Matrix and Vibe, and the 141hp Aerio AWD. So it would be grossly overpowered for its price.
OK, that's a slight exaggeration. ;-)
They report total Legacy sales (including Outback), and Outbacks sales. I bet we see 10-20% fewer Outback sales, but the same totals, roughly.
Logically it makes very clear sense though. We'll have to remind Patti about these posts when she gets back to browsing the boards, because I'm sure she won't be able to read and catchup on every board.
the more I like juice's idea of making all Outbacks H-6s, and offer it in only 2 trim levels. If you think about it, the Forester and Legacy are now offered in two trim levels; well, actually 2.5 trim levels, if you consider the Legacy L-SE and Forester XS Premium... Perhaps they could do the same with the base cloth-seat Outback, and offer a special package that included a moonroof, that would then give it 2.5 model trims.
I do think, however, if they do offer just H-6s in the Outback, they really will need to come up with a 5-speed manual version, because there are many of us who still prefer to shift for ourselves.
I still don't think that if this were to occur, that it wouldn't happen until '05, with the new body style. Offering the Outback with only H-6 engines, would certainly help differentiate it from the Legacy. Those who want 4-cylinder cars would (hopefully) gravitate* over to the Legacy lineup.
• = In order for this to work, the Legacy (lineup) would have to offer some additional sex appeal, that is currently lacking—including base-level models, not just the forthcoming turbo. I don't think just offering it with a 4-cylinder engine is enough of a lure, IMO. There's got to be a reason to *want* a Legacy, and not just because it may be cheaper and more economical.
You have been the experts. So, let me take your advice. I have a 01OB4cly no weather...moved to Boston Area. Am disappointed with power, no weather....thiking of trading-in my OB4cly for used LLbean or vdc....here are my questions:
1. Does H6 need premium gasoline ? 2. Any better cars(with more power on the way ) like Forester Turbo ? 3. I heard a lot of complaint about H6 that it does really feel like 6 due to low torque below 4,000 rpm. 4. Where can i get a good voice activated navigation system for my H6 OB( if buy one ) ?
sweet_subie- I have the Street Pilot III. It's not voice activated, but it has voice guidance. It's neat and am very happy with it. As for messy wiring,... what mess? There's only one set of wiring to plug into the power socket.
The Outback could have the H6 and only be offered in an auto. Anyone who wants a 5 speed could get a GT, the suspension tuning appeals to manual tranny fans anyway.
Those wanting a 5 speed to save money can get the L. That line up makes sense to me.
sweet_subie: run and buy one of the last few 2002 VDC fitzmall.com has left over, they are $25.5k!
You can burn regular fuel, Subaru even stated it makes 208hp on 87 octane, instead of 212hp with premium. The engine has a knock sensor and will basically retard ignition timing to run on whatever fuel you give it. Most people cannot feel a 4hp difference.
I would stick with premium for any turbo, however, so the Forester turbo would likely not be too happy with 87 octane.
The H6 engine is fine. No, it's not neck-snapping quick, but is is velvet-smooth, quiet, and refined. It'll get any job done, too.
I think it's the tranny that isn't smart enough to keep up with the H6, but even then it's adaptive and noone of us have driven one long enough for it to "learn" our driving style.
Since the Outback is "suv-like" aka offroading is in it's future, the AT is fine. Most offroad people will agree that ATs are much more versatile for offroading than MTs unless you have line-locks on the brake lines.
Yes, the auto is easier to use off road because you can left foot brake and modulate the throttle without worrying about the clutch.
Also, it's easier for towing. And remember something important - the Outback has a towing harness all set, just plug-and-play, while other Legacys do not. So Subaru even plans on having only Outback owners tow.
Manuals make more sense in a sporty type of vehicle. The Outback (IMHO) isn't sporty, it just handles well due to the AWD.
I look at it this way: take mini-vans for example. Can you name one CURRENT mini-van sold in the U.S. that is an MT? Honda, Mazda, GM, ChryCo - all AT's in their mv's. Sure, people might complain about the lack of an MT in 'em, but they're in the vast majority. They sell just fine with AT's, many with 5sp AT's.
And along those lines of thinking, Shiftronic should be standard on all Outbacks, along with that H6, and while you're at it make it a 5 speed.
What reminded me of that is that some vans do have manumatics.
And you can't blame Subaru for limiting which cars get which powertrains, they have 1% market share, what can you do? Look at Audi, their new and wonderful CVT only comes with FWD. So you can't combine their two coolest technologies, CVT and Quattro.
Yep, that should be a given now - a 5 speed AT non-manumatic. Manumatic's are nice, but maybe for better reserved for the upscale vehicles, and not an all-around default. Manu-matics probably still have a better place in a sporty vehicle.
Getting in a little late, but give me a H6 OB w/ cloth, VTD and a 5-speed AT (damn Bay Area traffic) for MY 2005. The current 4EAT is smooth, but not adequate for real spirited driving.
I just picked up a 79 MG Midget to satisfy my craving for shifting.
-Brett
Edit: Just saw Juice's post: add a supercharger to the H6!
Shortening the gearing would make the H6 feel peppier. Note that Edmunds' H6 outran the 225hp Toyota Highlander, it just doesn't feel that way because Subaru emphasized luxury (quietness + smoothness).
Nothing an extra ratio couldn't address easily.
And let's see Shiftronic spread across the board while we're at it. Subaru automatics are very robust, with shiftronic people like Ed and maybe my wife would have the perfect compromise.
Definitely has to do with the subaru luxury. For instance in the SVX I can be doing 100mph on an interstate and not even notice it if I'm not paying attention to the speedo. This might give an impression that the car is sluggish but you are actually going faster than you think.
Going fast in my 92 Legacy sure does feel like going fast...
But, yeah, my brother drove our aunt's LL Bean Outback, and he thinks it's not any quicker than mine with the EJ22. I drove it, but I drive a little more responsibly than my brother(though he's seven years my senior), but it was under a grand in mileage, so I didn't push it past 4K RPMs. Driving like that, I couldn't tell much difference...
Except that my drivers window button you can tap for it to go up or down automatically. Every other car, including this LL Bean Outback, you could tap it to go down, but you had to hold it to go up. That is why my car is the greatest car ever produced(that I've driven). Any other cars that can do what mine does?
Oh, and back to the subject, yeah, Supercharge the H6 and add a gear to each transmission(6MT and a 5EAT). Or better yet, throw in one of them sequential shifters or clutchless manuals or whatever they're called...
It's like watching a wide receiver and then a linesman run the 40'. If the wide receiver slows down to run at the same pace, he's not huffing and puffing hearly as hard as the lineman.
Same idea - the H6 does the job without breaking a sweat. When idling, you can't even tell it's on without looking at the tach.
My Forester has auto-down only on the power windows, and for the driver only. But my Miata has none, you have to hold it.
Comments
Bob
Bob
http://www.apexjapan.com/
Note: White STI has a different rear wing, than blue STI (and what was shown at Paris), and it also has retractable roof vent. They must be doing some aerodynamic testing, to see which rear wing works best, since Nurburgring is known as a high-speed track.
Bob
Bob
That STi scoop looks like it could ingest small birds, let alone insects!
Ken
I think it could ingest a small plane, or suck in pedestrians if they stand too close.
Bob
-juice
Speaking of the Traviq, do you think when Subaru introduces their new 7-passenger crossover in a few years, that it will replace the current Traviq? If so, do you think it will be called the Traviq, or have different name altogether?
Bob
Answer #2: it'll depend on sales. If it's selling well, the big SUW would be risky given large cars don't sell well in Japan. The Traviq and whatever updates it gets is designed for Europe's streets, which are more like Japan's. So not only will it stay, Subaru will sell the next generation too.
At least Opel is one of GM's better divisions. They and Holden are the best IMO.
-juice
Bob pointed out there is an H6 base Outback in Oz. I say make the H6 the ONLY engine in the Outback.
Why? To better distinguish it. Gas mileage is almost identical. The SUV image calls for 6 cylinders, period. Heck, the 4Runner and Explorer offer 8. Time to step up.
Also, the L/SE costs a grand less and has the moonroofs, so the OB only offer the AWP and mostly cosmetic goodies. Nothing substantial to distinguish it any more. Enter the H6.
Furthermore, make the H6 exclusive to the Outback line. The Legacy line will get a turbo. The Baja is sort of on the fence, but actually I'd pair it up with the Outback and make it H6 only.
What do you think?
-juice
I say, moving from top-to-bottom, market-wise:
• Combine the H-6 VDC & LL Bean into one model.
• Offer H-6 cloth seats (but with leather & moonroof as stand-alone options).
• Offer H-4 cloth seats (but with leather & moonroof as stand-alone options).
Get rid of the current H-4 Limited, as the leather and moonroof would be options on base models, both H-4 & H-6.
Bob
How's this:
Outback H6 (base, cloth, AWP)
Outback H6 Limited (leather, moonroof)
That's it. VDC could be a stand-alone option, that's it. No Momo wheel or Macintosh to run up prices.
Let all models gets VTD, even ones without VDC.
The catch is they have to get a manual tranny to work with VTD, and with the H6. That's all that's missing.
Clear identity, stream lined assembly.
-juice
I just think they will need an H-4 in the lineup, but I hope you're right. It may take several years for that to evolve, however. Maybe with the new model in '05?
I suspect that VDC will make it into all Subie automatics at some point.
Bob
I'd love to see the break down of sales once the 2003 model year for Q4. I bet Outback sales drop 10%, and L sales go up by that much. Maybe 20%.
5 speed fans sort of tend towards the GT for sportiness anyway. Or the L, if they are shopping price. So maybe it would be OK for all Outbacks to be auto even.
I can't BELIEVE I just said that, but I did.
-juice
Limited Outback: H6, AT, VDC, leather
Legacy SE: H4, MT or AT, VTD, cloth
Legacy GT(B): H4 TT, MT, VTD, leather
I agree, I bet more SE's sell in '03 than the base Outbacks. But, most sales figures are reported as TOTAL Legacy/Outback, not by specific model (vdc, limited, se, etc.) So, I'm not sure we'll know for sure how much sales are affected.
I'd rather see VTD across the board than VDC. No need to raise costs on other models with it.
-Brian
Think about it - noone would ever, ever say any of the Subies is underpowered. The Legacy SE is priced so low that it's competing with the 123hp Matrix and Vibe, and the 141hp Aerio AWD. So it would be grossly overpowered for its price.
OK, that's a slight exaggeration. ;-)
They report total Legacy sales (including Outback), and Outbacks sales. I bet we see 10-20% fewer Outback sales, but the same totals, roughly.
-juice
http://autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svwagon.asp
http://autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp
-Brian
-juice
Bob
-Brian
I do think, however, if they do offer just H-6s in the Outback, they really will need to come up with a 5-speed manual version, because there are many of us who still prefer to shift for ourselves.
I still don't think that if this were to occur, that it wouldn't happen until '05, with the new body style. Offering the Outback with only H-6 engines, would certainly help differentiate it from the Legacy. Those who want 4-cylinder cars would (hopefully) gravitate* over to the Legacy lineup.
• = In order for this to work, the Legacy (lineup) would have to offer some additional sex appeal, that is currently lacking—including base-level models, not just the forthcoming turbo. I don't think just offering it with a 4-cylinder engine is enough of a lure, IMO. There's got to be a reason to *want* a Legacy, and not just because it may be cheaper and more economical.
Bob
You have been the experts. So, let me take your advice. I have a 01OB4cly no weather...moved to Boston Area. Am disappointed with power, no weather....thiking of trading-in my OB4cly for used LLbean or vdc....here are my questions:
1. Does H6 need premium gasoline ?
2. Any better cars(with more power on the way ) like Forester Turbo ?
3. I heard a lot of complaint about H6 that it does really feel like 6 due to low torque below 4,000 rpm.
4. Where can i get a good voice activated navigation system for my H6 OB( if buy one ) ?
please help me out !
I think it's recommended, I'm not sure if it's required.
<< 2. Any better cars(with more power on the way ) like Forester Turbo ? >>
Yes, a turbo Forester should be here next summer, and a turbo Legacy a year later.
<< 3. I heard a lot of complaint about H6 that it does really feel like 6 due to low torque below 4,000 rpm. >>
I've driven several, and that's my assessment.
<< 4. Where can i get a good voice activated navigation system for my H6 OB( if buy one ) ? >>
I have no idea, sorry...
Bob
Voice Activated?... or you had meant Voice Guided?
-Dave
voice activated......what about this one ? I can use it in both cars.......butlooks like a messy wiring & stuff.....
http://www.1st-gps-map-store.com/auto_gps.html
2. Is legacy turbo a year a year later, confirmed news as well ?
Bob
http://www.garmin.com/products/spIII/
Alland
I have the Street Pilot III.
It's not voice activated, but it has voice guidance. It's neat and am very happy with it.
As for messy wiring,... what mess? There's only one set of wiring to plug into the power socket.
-Dave
-Dennis
Those wanting a 5 speed to save money can get the L. That line up makes sense to me.
sweet_subie: run and buy one of the last few 2002 VDC fitzmall.com has left over, they are $25.5k!
You can burn regular fuel, Subaru even stated it makes 208hp on 87 octane, instead of 212hp with premium. The engine has a knock sensor and will basically retard ignition timing to run on whatever fuel you give it. Most people cannot feel a 4hp difference.
I would stick with premium for any turbo, however, so the Forester turbo would likely not be too happy with 87 octane.
The H6 engine is fine. No, it's not neck-snapping quick, but is is velvet-smooth, quiet, and refined. It'll get any job done, too.
I think it's the tranny that isn't smart enough to keep up with the H6, but even then it's adaptive and noone of us have driven one long enough for it to "learn" our driving style.
-juice
-mike
Also, it's easier for towing. And remember something important - the Outback has a towing harness all set, just plug-and-play, while other Legacys do not. So Subaru even plans on having only Outback owners tow.
-juice
I look at it this way: take mini-vans for example. Can you name one CURRENT mini-van sold in the U.S. that is an MT? Honda, Mazda, GM, ChryCo - all AT's in their mv's. Sure, people might complain about the lack of an MT in 'em, but they're in the vast majority. They sell just fine with AT's, many with 5sp AT's.
-Brian
What reminded me of that is that some vans do have manumatics.
And you can't blame Subaru for limiting which cars get which powertrains, they have 1% market share, what can you do? Look at Audi, their new and wonderful CVT only comes with FWD. So you can't combine their two coolest technologies, CVT and Quattro.
-juice
-Brian
But those are still technically manuals (no torque converter).
-juice
by the way, I'm new... I've got a '92 Legacy L, I lover her and her mighty EJ22... Ha, ha.
Bob
We hope it will be similar. It's fun to speculate, no?
Will we get a twin turbo 2.0l engine?
Maybe a light pressure turbo 2.5l H4?
Or maybe a forced induction H6, 2.5-3.0l or so?
-juicer
I just picked up a 79 MG Midget to satisfy my craving for shifting.
-Brett
Edit: Just saw Juice's post: add a supercharger to the H6!
same problem with H4 OB as well !
-mike
Nothing an extra ratio couldn't address easily.
And let's see Shiftronic spread across the board while we're at it. Subaru automatics are very robust, with shiftronic people like Ed and maybe my wife would have the perfect compromise.
-juice
-mike
The same speed in our Forester feels tame. In the Legacy, with the long wheelbase and less NVH, it feels down right slow.
-juice
But, yeah, my brother drove our aunt's LL Bean Outback, and he thinks it's not any quicker than mine with the EJ22. I drove it, but I drive a little more responsibly than my brother(though he's seven years my senior), but it was under a grand in mileage, so I didn't push it past 4K RPMs. Driving like that, I couldn't tell much difference...
Except that my drivers window button you can tap for it to go up or down automatically. Every other car, including this LL Bean Outback, you could tap it to go down, but you had to hold it to go up. That is why my car is the greatest car ever produced(that I've driven). Any other cars that can do what mine does?
Oh, and back to the subject, yeah, Supercharge the H6 and add a gear to each transmission(6MT and a 5EAT). Or better yet, throw in one of them sequential shifters or clutchless manuals or whatever they're called...
JPM
Same idea - the H6 does the job without breaking a sweat. When idling, you can't even tell it's on without looking at the tach.
My Forester has auto-down only on the power windows, and for the driver only. But my Miata has none, you have to hold it.
-juice