Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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Comments

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    for a 3.0 turbo doesn't sound very impressive. I think the number would have to be higher than that.

    Bob
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    I think the redesigned Legacy will be larger, as is the trend these days, and so they will need 250+ hp to compete effectively. I am also thinking that it will be heavier and possibly even flirt with an all new class of vehicles, size-wise. Over 300 hp, I dunno, at least not in non-STi trim, that would be uncharted territory for any Subaru worldwide. My guess would be lpt in the 260-275 hp range, then maybe 300 hp in factory-tuned mode, read RSK. As an aside, those prices are amazing, aren't they? If those engines go into like vehicles (Liberty to Legacy) aren't a lot of the import hassles reduced greatly? Hmmmmmm. Nope, I love factory stock cars.

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Let's do some math, bare with me for a minute.

    I'm looking at the specific output of LPT engines in the market today:

    * VW's 1.8T has 170hp, 94 hp/liter
    * Volvo's 1.9T gets 170hp now, 89 hp/liter
    * Volvo's 2.4T gets 197hp, 82 hp/liter

    These are reliable engines, too. VW has a ball bearing turbo and 5 valves/cylinder, so let's aim for about 90 hp/liter. With 3.0l, that makes 270 horsepower.

    A nice compromise, reliable and definitely a step above any mainstream sedans.

    At 300hp the beast will cost $35 grand and it's out of my price range.

    -juice
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    2.5l @ 300 hp. Not that it's lpt, but, just for reference. Also, normally 35k would be pushing it for me for a car, too. But, having just witnessed my friend write a check for 46k(!!!!) for a new Audi A6 2.7tt @ 250hp, I start working myself into a comfort zone thinking about 275 hp on tap at 35k. :)

    Jim
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    It was reported a while ago that the next Legacy will be both bigger and lighter than the outgoing model. More aluminum is probably going to be used.

    Subaru needs to shake up the Legacy. The current model, while a fine vehicle, is a bit of a letdown as Subaru's premier vehicle. A 300 HP Legacy will have the same impact, in it's market segment as the 227 HP WRX did in its market segment. I think anything less, will be a letdown.

    Bob
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    And I hadn't heard the lighter news. It must not be MUCH bigger, then.

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Jim: save that for the STi. Limited Edition, small numbers. Then sure, $35k.

    To me it's a psychological limit - $30 grand. Above that is either luxury territory or full size SUV territory.

    The SUW could get a LPT H6 too, 270hp would be plenty for a family car to haul any load up mountains.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If the next legacy is 300+hp H6 Turbo, and it's significantly larger than the current legacy, I might even sell the Trooper to buy it! :)

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But it's gotta be nice and boxy, right? ;-)

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    If it's something like a subie version of an A8 maybe a hair smaller with an H6 turbo :) Big comfy, well handling AWD, all the goodies :)

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    I'm not into all this upscale stuff, to be honest. I'm practical, I guess. Gimme a Forester that is 120% of the current one in every way.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I doubt I'd ever get an (upscale) Legacy turbo either. That doesn't mean I don't want to see Subaru produce one, however. I think it's important for their brand image. I'd probably end up with either a WRX, Forester turbo, or Baja H-6/turbo.

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'd like an A8 or S8 but know I can't afford one. So a slightly upscale version of the legacy that is wider and longer would suit the bill nicely. Kinda like a 4-door version of my SVX :) Did I mention I love that car?

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    in every post you write...

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    My point is let that be an STi model.

    I honestly believe that people WANT 700 hp and 7 speed trannies, but they BUY 200hp and 5 speeds.

    The STi would be limited numbers. If demand is hot, wonderful, you have a halo car. If not, no problem, limit supply to 500 a year just to make them highly desirable.

    But I want to see improvements to the mainstream Subarus, not just the high-priced ones. Hence I ask for more manageable upgrades.

    Like a 6 speed manual, 5 speed auto, or more H6 options. Because I will buy one.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Most people buy mainstream cars.

    Subaru does need a US-spec "halo" Legacy model, be it an STi or whatever.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK then we can agree. I don't even care what the STi costs, $40 grand, sure, shoot the moon.

    Just offer something for me for under $30k that does everything I need and most things I want.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I'd just like to see a H6 Legacy that is wider and longer than the current one with ~250-300hp, preferrably NA. Other than that any "goodies" would be gravy. Price is in the sub $30K range and I'm there.

    -mike
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    wow, you guys have been busy.

    Let me just quickly chime in that I seriously doubt a 3.0L H6 turbo would make 300 horsepower.

    I bet it would be under 275, with a heavy emphasis on low-end torque and minimal lag.

    -Colin
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the halo car for the Impreza lineup, at least until the STi arrives. Because it's based on the entry-level Impreza, it doesn't cost an arm and leg.

    Frankly, I hope all next-generation Legacys are H-6s, just like juice wants all next-generation Outbacks to be H-6s. The H-6 turbo would be at the top of the food chain, that's all.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The Legacy does need to get wider. To me that's more important than making it longer, actually.

    Thank you, Colin. Now get a job at Subaru and engineer that bad boy for me.

    I say leave an H4 option on the Legacy, though. My dad and my wife are more than happy with its power.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    if you lop off 2 cylinders off my proposed 300 HP 3.0 H-6, you end up with a 200 HP 2.0 H-4.

    I would think a 200 HP (WRX) would have much better low/mid-end power characteristics than the current 227 HP model. A 300 HP H-6 turbo is not going to have a WRX-type powerband, that only pulls from 3000 rpm and up.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    But Bob, the 2.0l turbo is a smaller bore version of the EJ25, hence the EJ20 name. Those cylinder walls are nice and thick.

    The 3l is compact and part of the new EZ series of engines. It's compact and light, but can't take the same abuse the EJ20 could.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the EZ30 can't grow in size? If that's the case, it seems rather silly to me that Subaru would pose that kind of limitation on any engine family.

    I still don't think a 300 HP 3.0 H-6 is going to be stressed that highly?

    Bob
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I think Juice was saying that the EZ series is already at it's max potential as far as more hp for the same displacement due to the wall thickness of the cylinders. Now maybe a closed deck EZ30 or an EZ35 would surely take more power.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Good question.

    With a wider track, and a wider engine bay, they could stroke it.

    So it that could be done for the 2005 Legacy, to get maybe 3.3 or 3.5 liters or so.

    The same guy who speculated about the engines mentioned that if they stroked the H6 and put it in the Outback, they'd have to pull the entire engine to do heavy-duty maintenance on it.

    But - we're asking for a wider track for the Legacy anyway. I bet it'll get it.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I can see it being stroked. I think the engine is rather over-square as it now stands.

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    the existing H6 be tweaked for more power w/o a turbo? AVCS, bored, etc.?

    -Brian
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    bob,

    all horizontally opposed engines will be significantly oversquare. it's the nature of the beast, to be semi efficient with packaging you've gotta have a large bore. otherwise you have a really wide engine and nothing to show for it.

    over its life, the EJ series increased a whopping 4mm in stroke. add that to the EZ30 and I think you have a fair idea that it couldn't easily be more than 3.3 - 3.5L considering the narrow bore spacing severely limits growth there.

    -Colin
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    I emailed that company that referenced an upcoming H6t about their sources, and here's their reply. Short and simple... this is getting interesting....

    Hi Jim, This information is from the factory.

    Regards,
    Norrie Anderson
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: "Jim Pearson"
    To:
    Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2002 7:28 AM
    Subject: Turbo H6

    > Can you tell me where you are hearing about the Turbo H6?
    >
    > Jim Pearson
    > Houston, Texas USA
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Factory H6 turbo? Oh man, this will be sweet.

    It must be the new GT engine, then. Forester is built in Japan, so could it possibly get it, too? Could you imagine? That would be TOO powerful for that chassis setup.

    I think the current H6 could be tweaked up to 220hp easily, 240hp with some serious massaging.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    This H-6 turbo rumor is intriguing, to say the least...

    Anybody think the H-6 turbo and the 2.5 turbo, are one and the same? We've been hearing about a 2.5 turbo for some time now, and now comes (some) confirmation of an H-6 turbo. We've been assuming all along that the 2.5 turbo was a version of the current 2.5 H-4, but maybe it's not.

    If the 2.5 turbo is indeed an H-6, it would make sense. Juice is concerned that the 3.0 H-6 may not be up to high-output turboing, because there may not be enough metal to maintain a strong engine block. Volvo has reduced engine size when they've gone for high-output turbos. Subaru could do the same. Along that same thinking, maybe the current 2.5 H-4 may also not be strong enough for a high-output turbo.

    If the 2.5 turbo does indeed turn out to be an H-6, I will change my prediction about the Forester turbo. I say it will be a 2.0 detuned WRX engine.

    Bob
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    This is getting interesting.

    Staying tuned,
    -Brian
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Wow, I'm away for a long weekend and I'm already behind.

    A H-6 turbo would be sweet indeed, but I agree with Bob that the Forester will get the re-tuned (not de-tuned since it's designed more for low end torque) WRX engine. I can't imagine Subaru creating a turbo engine just for the North American Forester.

    Ken
  • cptpltcptplt Member Posts: 1,075
    I think at i-club or somewhere, they had a discussion on the tech side of things and felt that a 2.5 turbo maybe based on the H6 engine and not the older H4 design, or something like that!!
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    that iClub discussion is here.

    my response to the article is here: locke2c Oct 10, 2002 10:12am

    even with these latest tidbits, I still would be very surprised if a turbo 2.5L H6 was the next new engine from Subaru.

    -Colin
  • subearusubearu Member Posts: 3,613
    what about this 2.5 H6? How would it differ from the 2.5 H4 and the 3.0 H6? I'm use to seeing different Chevy V8 sizes, but not the boxer.

    -Brian
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    H6 turbo Forester? Yummy...

    Volvo uses a 2.3l for their high-pressure turbo, instead of 2.4l. Audi made their 2.8l a 2.7l for their twin turbo. So it's common industry practice.

    All they need are new pistons and cylinder sleeves, that's it. The stroke could remain the same.

    One thought - Subaru has been using the displacement in the names of the cars, so maybe it is more than 2.5l.

    Think about it - they have a 2.5 GT, would it make sense to come out with a new engine and not change the name of the model? They must've known this in advance.

    So following my conspiracy theory, maybe it'll be a 2.7T or 2.8T.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I too e-mailed the firm below, and asked the following questions: What size? What vehicle applications? How much power, and how soon is "soon?"


    http://www.noztune.com.au/engines01.htm


    Their response:


    << Hi Bob, I don't have allot of information on this engine at the moment only that is is a 6cyl 3.0lt engine based on the H6, I was in Japan at Subaru 3 weeks ago & the guys told me that the engines will be available within a month. I haven't heard anything at the moment but I will enquire again when I place my next order for engines in 1 weeks time.


    Regards,

    Norrie Anderson >>


    So... there may still be a 2.5 H-4 turbo in the works, if this is true...


    Bob

  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    Is my guess, and if it's high enough HP I may swap one into an SVX if my engine dies! :)

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Holy cow.

    I bet Subaru actually developed both, and is trying to decide which ones to use. Just because they tried a 2.5T doesn't mean we'll get it.

    Remember, the ST-X has a 2.5SC, but that never made it, either.

    But I cannot see them using 3 different turbos, could they? There's the 2.0l from Japan, in at least 4 different states of tune (Forester, WRX, STi, twin turbo Blitzen), then the 2.5l turbo rumored for the Forester, then the 3.0l turbo for the (I guess) US Legacy.

    Another thought - the EJ25 engine is being phased out, does it make sense to develop a whole new engine for just a couple of years in the market?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Subaru has developed a whole lot of engines that we're not aware of. That's part of the normal development process. It sounds like the 2.5 H-4 turbo and the 3.0 H-6 turbo made their short list, as to what to put into production.

    In any event, we should know something more definite in a month or so. If the H-6 turbo "engine" is released then (to noztune), I'm sure a "vehicle" will also accompany it to Subie dealers. ;)

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Agreed, and that's just the type of engine that american consumers would want, as opposed to a small turbo engine in a mid-size car.

    -juice
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    You guys are pathetic. You're like kids in a candy store, drooling all over the counter! I for one plan to remain calm until such time as an actual turbo-charged Subaru shows up at the local dealer. :-p

    -Frank P.
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Mmmmmm...poor man's S6 Avant...mmmmmm!

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Scroll down to shirokuma's (Paul Hansen) comment, about 1/2 way down.


    Bob


    http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=264943&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    So he thinks the Forester will get the 2.0l turbo after all.

    He also mentions they likely have a 2.5Ti, 2.2Ti, and 3.0T on the shelf.

    Finally, he's predicting a 2.5T Baja.

    I dunno. Baja would be better off with the H6 IMO, and the Forester could use more displacement. I hope he's wrong.

    -juice
  • lark6lark6 Member Posts: 2,565
    While it is all very interesting, I am doing my best to refrain from speculating on drivetrains. I know what I'd like to see and am willing to wait to see if FHI/Subaru can provide it here.


    Speaking of which, what is the story with this Blitzen 6 touring wagon? Ken, can you please interpret?


    http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/blitzen6/


    Surprised to see it hasn't been discussed here yet. The Porsche influence (pre-Cayenne, anyway) is evident; that "Blitzen 6" script is so reminiscent of Carreras of old.


    Ed

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