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Comments
I bet that Blitzen gets the plain H6. Maybe 217hp, tops.
-juice
Bob
After almost 3 years and 46K miles in the Forester, I can see some changes in my own wants/needs. For example:
1. I don't need the ground clearance that I thought I would. Not going into the Pine Barrens or onto rutted rural Southern roads as much as I'd thought.
2. I would always like more acceleration and passing power, especially since most drivers in the Northeast Corridor think the red and white triangular sign means "floor it" and those already in traffic refuse to make room for those ""flooring it" into traffic.
3. I am not towing at all, nor do I foresee towing.
4. Nimble handling at speed trumps all.
5. I think a Forester-sized vehicle has all the cargo capacity I need. I may have to rethink that should we have children, but I would not want anything larger than a Legacy-sized vehicle. The larger question there is "just how much stuff does one family need to carry?"
Just a sampling of my thoughts.
Ed
PS: Bob - I didn't recall it. Short-term memory loss, maybe.
So that means they need to appeal to a broad range of US buyers, who demand displacement and torque.
I don't see the 2.0T Forester fitting that image. An american buyers would walk into the showroom, see a 2.5 X model for $19 grand, then a 2.0 XT model for $25 grand, and buy the bigger 2.5 for less money.
Even if it's a 2.5T, they'd have to change the labels so that it would be more distinguished.
There are precedents here. BMW used the label "Z3 2.3" even when everyone knew it was a 2.5l engine. That was to distinguish the 2.8. When they went to a 3.0, then finally they started using the proper 2.5 label.
So you can't have a 2.5 X and a 2.5 XT with different engines, it'll confuse the heck out of customers.
So maybe they should put a 3.0l turbo in the Forester. Don't you love my twisted logic?
-juice
* ground clearance may not be critical to 90% or more of Forester buyers, but if they lower it any more it'll look even more like a wagon and noone will buy it. Call potential buyers fickle, but it's true
* everyone agrees here, let's see some more power
* I don't tow often enough to argue strongly against that, but again, to be considered an SUV this is a pre-requisite
* nimble handling at speeds => Legacy Turbo, it's just not the Forester's mission
* Forester doesn't need to be any bigger because the SUW can play that role
But I see it as a city/suburb fun-run vehicle, for pointing and squirting, errands to Home Depot, etc. Not an autobahn stormer, which its short wheelbase and tallish height prevent it from being anyway.
-juice
I like the "point and squirt" analogy and find it more appropriate for 75% of my driving. You'd think I'd be more into whitewater than flatwater kayaking based on that, but when I'm in the water taking in the scenery is a big part of the equation. Again, I thought I'd be driving more in the country but I don't know if/when that will happen. It does seem to be the "erranding" car of choice: I went to the grocery store a couple of weekends ago and came out to find six first-gen Foresters, including my own, all parked next to one another in the lot. Felt like being at the dealer.
I have never considered the Forester an SUV and still don't; it's a tall, boxy wagon. It reminds me most of the Subarus of old, when they had they letter designations instead of model names. Subaru has marketed it as an SUV (in North America) and does so even more with the second-gen model. The S turbos, STis and Cross Sports are evidence that the rest of the world doesn't think of it in exactly the same way. Maybe I'm in denial?
Ed
Keep the wheelbase short, tighten the turning radius, add power, keep weight down. That's about it.
I'd be thrilled with 220hp on a Forester Premium, no more no less. Under $25 grand, street price. That's possible because 5 speed Premiums are in the $22k range now.
My wife spends more time on the highway and suburbs, so she'll get a 2009 Legacy H6/H6 turbo next time around.
-juice
Ed
I just printed out the specs on the vehicle. There's really not a whole lot to mention about it other than it's a Blitezn Wagon with the NA H6 engine. Let me know what specifically you need to know.
Ken
-Frank P.
Frank: your point exactly. US and Canadian drivers are apparently more interested in low-end torque than the rest of the world market. I guess I should've modified my statement to say "I don't care if it's 2.0T, 2.5T, 3.0N/A, 3.0T or whatever." Give me 220hp and a healthy amount of torque, but don't upset the Forester's balance.
Ed
Well, it does get:
Porsche design 17" aluminum wheels
Aluminum front lower arms
Rear side performance arm
215/45ZR17 tires
All the Blitzen trimmings
Ken
I'd love to try the 217hp 2.0l from Japan, to see if lag is a problem.
-juice
Bob
http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=266857
The ST-X had an s/c and there were issues with reliability (I think that company went out of business or something along those lines). There used to be pics on the i-club of the ST-X being pushed into the truck at a car show because it wouldn't start. :-)
I heard from a pretty good source that the '03 Legacy at the NY Auto Show (April '02) had an s/c in it. I heard from another source that it could be true, although an S/C probably wouldn't show up in the Legacy and they were possibly just testing different configurations.
-Dennis
"To be honest, our design has not been so good," said Kiyoshi Sugimoto, chief general manager of Subaru's design department. "If we don't admit this, we could be headed in the wrong direction."
-Dennis
It's a good sign that Subaru has finally recognized this, and is taking strong steps to rectify it. Unfortunately, it will take at least 5 years to get the whole lineup up to snuff. From what the article says, this new design team probably won't be able to overhaul the complete lineup before MY06. MY06 is when the next-generation Impreza is due I believe.
* = The exception to this would be the Legacy sedan. I think most people will agree that of all Subarus, the Legacy sedan, especially the GT, is a quite handsome vehicle. I think the Outbacks are also good looking, but the Legacy GT sedan is the best looking, IMO.
Bob
Subaru is already borderline with the CAFE numbers.
Bob: that is good news. Now people may start buying Subies because of their design, not despite it.
I'd rank styling like this:
Legacy GT
Legacy L/SE
Outback monotone
Outback two-tone
Forester
Impreza
Baja
Though with the new face on the Impreza, it would move all the up to 2nd or 3rd.
Still, only the GT is truly handsome.
-juice
Bob
I just hope that when Subaru starts to implement it's new looks, they don't end up looking like everyone else. Make it look good, but unique.
Ken
-B
Just presenting the other side of the coin.
Maybe Isuzu could engineer it for them. Sell them in Europe first, then, if they succeed, bring them here slowly.
-juice
Yeah, in Europe, 30% of cars are diesels! That's a huge market to ignore. As it now stands Subaru has less than 1% of the European market, according to this link. If they offered a diesel over there, who knows what their sales might be. Even if it becomes only 2%, they've doubled their sales.
Bob
-juice
Perfect option for the Subaru line of cars.
-B
Bob
As far as future models go, GM is offering the Avalanche in 2003 sans cladding, wonder if Subaru will get smart and do the same for the Baja.
Although I really don't agree with bigger is better, a tall wagon/SUV off the Legacy platform would be nice for Subaru sales, along with a higher-output H6.
PS Mercedes has decided to wait until low-sulfur fuel is available.
Ed
Subaru should remain a niche make. It can redefine what the niche is, however. In the past, it was "quirky snow vehicles", now it could be "AWD Performance".
No FWD, AWD only please. All engines should remain boxers. Those two are absolutely essential.
-juice
http://www.premiumdiesel.com
this is informational-- not a sales pitch. but by and large you are correct.
-Colin
-B
Ken
But diesel buys you more range, so even at 20% more cost you'll spend less on your total fuel bill.
-juice
-B
Bob
http://www.car-truck.com/chryed/buzz/b102902.htm
I think he's gone faster than 222mph in his Trooper, though.
-juice
Seth
I wouldn't, so it doesn't matter if I waited. of course with Subaru's depreciation I might pay $20,000 in 2006 for a 3 year-old WRX STi. ;-)
-Colin
nah highest the trooper has been is 120 and that was downhill.
-mike
-Frank P.
http://www.japanvehicles.com/newcars/subaru/WRX2003model/main.htm
People shopping in the $35k range expect no excuses. It would need a moonroof, leather, and upgraded carpet, trim, headliner, etc. But then it would become a botique car, which I'd hate to see.
Smaller turbo on the standard WRX, and quicker? Sounds good.
Look at that, a proper 3 spoke steering wheel. C'mon Subaru, dump the overpriced Momo 4 spoker.
-juice
-Colin
Mustang GT, 350Z. is the WRX STi more capable? surely. but $35,000 is a lot more than those cars cost.
It has to beat those two cars handily plus beat or seriously threaten the performance of more expensive cars like the Mustang Cobra, Corvette and M3.
-Colin
A GT Mustang couldn't hope to keep up, and still doesn't get the Cobra's IRS.
The only direct competitor would be the EVO, so if Subaru prices is at $35k and then Mitsu offers the EVO for $30k, they will sit on dealer lots collecting dust.
I think the problem is there isn't a defined niche yet, and Subaru and Mitsubishi are playing a chess match to see where prices will end up.
If you think about it, they could even be spreading false rumors, hoping that Mitsu matches that false price, so Subaru could come in substantially lower.
-juice
without ADM a 350Z does not hit $35k easily. and all the early ones are optioned to the gills-- you'll see some in dealers come Spring that are below $30k.
anyway...
-Colin
-Dennis