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Subaru Crew - Future Models II

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    They also said the regular WRX would cost $28 grand, so they tend to guess on the high side.

    True, the Z won't be the new kid on the block by spring, to prices will come back down to earth.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    We had one at auto-x last weekend. I was thoroughly un-impressed with it.

    o Cheap feeling interior for a ~$30K car
    o LOTS AND LOTS of Body roll for a "sports" car
    o Not so fast through the course with an experienced driver

    -mike
  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    the same things said about a 350Z that showed up at an SCCA event here in Houston. I think it was the track version. People just couldn't believe the poor handling in a car that comes advertised as having 50/50 weight distribution.

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Really?

    Too heavy for a tight AutoX course, maybe?

    I'm not crazy about the Z, to be honest. Nissan interiors to leave something to be desired. Plus, it's gotta be the only hatchback in the market with zero utility, that goofy brace kills whatever hopes you may have had to carry anything.

    The G35 coupe is better looking and seats 4 for about the same performance. If the Z is not a good track car, then what's the point?

    I'd even get the G35 4 door, once the manual tranny arrives.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    This one was the Enthusiast Edition.

    It also wasn't a tight course this was a NASA event rather than an SCCA event.

    -mike
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    How does body roll compare to a stock WRX? Same or less?

    I know they offer a nice brake package, but I'm not sure how many suspensions setups are sold on the Z.

    -juice
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    The WRX is very poor as far as body roll (IMHO) and the Z is about the same. On a rally car that is somewhat more acceptable than a sports car.

    -mike
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Colin- You're right, I probably wouldn't buy a used M3. However, in my mind, a used WRX STi will have an additional strike against it because of the turbo. I've owned a couple of turbo-charged cars and IMO, turbos are more susceptible to mechanical failures as a result of abusive driving. Still, I'd wouldn't hesitate to buy another turbo-charged car (Forester please) but it would have to be new.

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    You gotta find the right seller. I bought my 8 year old Miata with 26k pampered miles from a school teacher (which I was able to verify).

    You'd expect a Miata to have been autoXed, or at least for the top to have been abused.

    2 years later it's been 100% reliable. So reliable it's almost boring.

    -juice
  • p0926p0926 Member Posts: 4,423
    Well sure, if you're certain that the used WRX STi was only driven by Granny on weekends to go to church and back then by all means buy it :-) However, the Miata isn't in the same category as the STi. There are plenty of Miatas that were bought by owners who only wanted to do a little open-air touring on weekends. I suspect that the STi owner demographics will be significantly tilted towards the more aggressive male drivers with very few women interested in them (no offense intended ladies).

    -Frank P.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    If there are only 4000 per year, then yeah, that's very likely true.

    But I bet there are more M3 owners that never push their cars to the limit, though.

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    $35K is too rich for my tastes, too. Hopefully the STi will bring in tow, some performance parts that could be used on a plain-jane WRX. I'd be more interested in upgrading the suspension than the engine.

    I've seen a couple 350Zs now. I have to admit, they are head-turners. Looks very good.

    Ken
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    miatae are heavily bought by Empty Nesters, which certainly helps keep the insurance rates down compared to 20-40 year-old testosterone pumping males...

    more M3 owners that [...] than what juice? miata owners or perspective WRX STi owners?

    no way to the former, but you're probably right about the latter. the more *oomph* a car has, the more likely someone used it.

    -Colin
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    STi owners, I meant.

    Yeah, my Miata's insurance is just $500 per year, vs. $800 or so for each of our Subies, even the Legacy wagon driven by momma!

    I guess how much damage could it do, you know? Plus it's a leisure car. But even to commute it would be cheapest.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    SOJ

    http://www.subaru.co.jp/index_h.html


    Big discussion on Impreza changes on I-Club

    http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=268086&perpage=25&pagenumber=2


    More goodies...

    http://www.subaru.co.jp/impreza/sedan/05/05_02.html

  • sweet_subiesweet_subie Member Posts: 1,394
    http://autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=carnews&loc_code=index&content_code=09046798


    did you all see this......many will shun subaru becos there are a lot fo AWD cars which offer awesome styling !

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    I've been following shirokuma's posts (Paul Hansen on the I-Club) very closely. He's an art director who works very closely with STi over in Japan, and clearly has the inside scoop on what's going on with future products. He is constantly being bugged by I-Clubers to let the cat(s) out of the bag, so to speak. So far, he's been loyal to his employer, by saying as little as possible, so as not to getting fired. Even so, his comments have been very enlightening...


    Also loads of new Impreza accessories on this site:


    http://babel.altavista.com/tr


    Bob

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=268942&pagenumber=1
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    The torque curves show similar peak HP, but a far more generous torque curve. The cure for turbo lag?

    Styling is a tough issue. I remember GM's new boss a few years back said "no more ugly cars", and then promptly launched the ugly Lumina sedan and the even uglier Monte Carlo coupe.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Paul Hansen's (I-Club & apexjapan.com) review from Fuji International speedway.


    http://www.apexjapan.com/


    << <I>Off-the-line response was immediate, a rational-thought-erasing grin generator. Nothing less than a complete rework of the intake, turbo and exhaust system had occurred, creating power way down low - it's making roughly 230ft/lb's of torque at 2400rpm - and continues on to a back-slapping midrange that holds on till about 6500rpm, then eases into it's redline at 7500rpm. Max torque? 286ft/lbs!! Yet still they claim it still only makes 276hp despite the fact that torque has increased dramatically throughout the entire rev-range. Our opinion points at somewhere just north of 300hp. Numbers are impressive, but what really shook my booty was the instant response once you've passed 2000rpm. It felt quite a bit closer to a big NA motor than most turbo's I've sampled, with linear response to the boom-boom pedal instead of the usual rubberband ramp-up of past STi's. >>


    It sounds like the powerband of the STi v.2.0 is much more user-friendly than before, thanks to the new Twin-Scroll turbo. The handling is also much improved.


    Bob

  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    I may have to get on an STi waiting list and trade in my WRX wagon next year. :-D
    Then again, some h.p. loss is to be expected for the N. American model.

    -Dennis
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Found this over on the I-Club. The new WRX-STi (not, however, the new base WRX) employs this feature.

    << For those like me that didn't know how twin scroll turbo' work:

    "Its secret lies in the utilization of a system known as 'twin scroll technology'. Two separate exhaust manifolds, each of which serve two cylinders generate pressure pulses which accelerate the turbine more effectively than the conventional turbo. Combined with relatively low charge-air pressure, the special exhaust manifolds endow the engine with characteristics reminiscent of substantially more powerful conventional engines but with the added benefit of lower fuel consumption."

    It'a explaining the twin scroll setup of a Volvo V40. >>

    Bob
  • barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    I know, I was thinking the same thing. Boy, my Subaru dealership is really going to love me more than they already do, LOL!!

    Stephen
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    now employs variable valve timing, at least the Japanese-spec model does. I hope that feature make it over here. Again, resulting in a broader powerband.

    Bob
  • lucien2lucien2 Member Posts: 2,984
    ....that the US STi will be de-tuned somewhat? Can't remember where I saw that, but I seem to have the number "260hp" in my head....
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    OK, I'll take a 2.0T on a Forester if it has that new twin scroll turbo! :-)

    Autoweek says 261hp. That's a pretty specific number for them to be wrong about it.

    Then again, it may be purely for insurance companies. They are not usually honest about power output.

    -juice
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    Bob - The AVCS is also on the current "base" JDM WRX. It puts out 247 h.p., IIRC.

    I've seen magazine articles that the U.S. STi will get 276 h.p. (that's a good one :-) )

    -Dennis
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    http://www.egarrett.com/technology/tech_twin_scroll.jsp?justlist=1&l1id=1&l2id=2&l3id=2.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Too bad the "TS" in the Impreza TS doesn't stand for Twin Scroll. ;-)

    -juice
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    bob,

    the "new Age Impreza" has always had VVT in Japan.

    -Colin
  • barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    seems to be pretty conservative as some estimates place the real output @ 300hp for the new STi (take a look at the torque #). The Japanese market underplays their HP ratings quite a bit and often.

    Stephen
  • locke2clocke2c Member Posts: 5,038
    there's a gentlemen's agreement for no more than 280PS, so very very few cars claim more than that.

    -Colin
  • bluesubiebluesubie Member Posts: 3,497
    I believe it's been dropped and manufacturers will start stating real numbers. A couple of the latest limited STi's state higher h.p. #'s.

    -Dennis
  • barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    Right, I remembered something about that...

    Stephen
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    on the much improved powerband (from the I-Club).

    << <I>The chart on the subaru site says it all - at around 2300rpm, the new STi is making about 50-60 more ft/lb's of torque than the last 01 Spec C STi. About 220ft/lb's vs. 170ft/lb's. That's an especially large difference at those rpms, and I doubt the american WRX made more torque than the previous Spec C at any rpm. That's roughly 75hp at that rpm for the old vs. 95hp in the new at that point. Want to know why Legacy B4 twin-turbo owners are jealous? It's only making about 65hp at 2300rpm. Only the best twin-turbo legacy, the S401, is close with about 90hp, give or take a few.

    The new JDM WRX makes 220ft/lbs around 2500rpm, though, and actually has just a tad more torque than the STi at 2000rpm. However, it peaks rather soon after that point, then starts running out of breath around 5500-6000rpm.

    All the turbo information I really got was in those photos. I don't think I can put up anything larger - this particular article is already taxing our bandwidth with images at these sizes.

    Cheers,

    Paul Hansen >>

    Bob
  • barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    Okay, I got on the STi list @ my dealership. Unfortunately, they only expect about 5 to 10 (but are working on getting more) cars and I am #17 on the list. :-( The advice given to me was to get on as many dealer lists as possible.

    Stephen
  • strider98strider98 Member Posts: 89
    (he types as he picks up the phone to get on the waiting list ;@)
  • barresa62barresa62 Member Posts: 1,379
    Yeah...kind of crazy but hey I will have kept my WRX a whole year longer than I did my 00'OB Ltd! :-)

    Stephen
  • paisanpaisan Member Posts: 21,181
    I can probably hookup anyone who needs one @ my dealer. They don't sell many performance cars there. I was able to get at least 1 Yellow of the 420 sold the first year. Shouldn't be a problem getting an STi or 2.

    -mike
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    Only 400 being made!


    http://www.apexjapan.com/


    Bob

  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    There's a pix of a blue Impreza RV (aka Outback Sport) on the dock, behind a white Outback wagon. We haven't seen pixs of the Outback Sport yet!


    Bob


    http://forums.i-club.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=2857136#post2857136

  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    I think Subaru is really going for a strong statement, and I love it. That's a bold design, even sitting at the dock, let alone a car show.

    Jim
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    17 on a wait list at one dealer? That's surprising, probably an exception.

    This is funny - the old headlights looked ugly from far away, but better as you got close.

    The new headlights look great from far away, but up close they look too yellow and sort of looks crowded. Still better overall, though.

    They are the exact opposite.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    that's easy to explain.

    From a distance, you see the whole car and how the headlight interacts visually with it. You get the "big picture," so to speak. The headlights are only a small part of the visual landscape.

    Up close, you focus solely on the headlight, and not its surroundings. Up close they may(?) not be attractive, but when you consider the whole vehicle, and all the other elements, it works.

    Remember, the grille/bumper/hood combo are now also much improved. In my opinion, they contribute a whole lot more to the improved looks than do the new headlights.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    Sounds right. I just don't like how much yellow you see close up. How much you wanna bet that some aftermarket clear lens mod is the most popular change on the 2003s?

    -juice
  • kenskens Member Posts: 5,869
    Bob,

    Explained like a true designer! ;-)

    Ken
  • gvmelbrtygvmelbrty Member Posts: 64
    TheCarConnection.com has posted a photo they claim will be the new turbo Forester arriving next year in the US; 2.0, 227hp from the WRX:


        Media leaks from reliable sources

        have confirmed that Subaru will be

        bringing their Forester XT &#151; T as in

        Turbo &#151; to the States.


        The 227-hp intercooled turbo, borrowed

        from the sporty WRX, will power the XT

        Forester, giving it a 62-hp boost over

        the 165-hp Forester wagon of today.


    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=5502&sid=178&n=156


    ---


    This confirms the predictions that Paul Hansen over at apexjapan has been making.


    Like most here, I was hoping the 2.5 litre would get the turbo, but if the boost comes on earlier than the current WRX (as I'm sure it must), then we may not have much to complain about... except decreased low-end torque?

    But the only thing you can tell from this photo is that it's a turbo. Certainly a 2.5l could be sitting under that hood.


    -tom

  • jimmyp1jimmyp1 Member Posts: 640
    and yes, I am up working at 1:45 am Texas time. I guess with all this talk of the twin-scroll turbo in the STi WRX (and possibly regular WRX) eliminating all the low-end problems, the 2.5l might not be so necessary after all.

    Jim
  • rshollandrsholland Member Posts: 19,788
    the Forester XT, as shown here and as it is sold in Japan, looks just like our XS Premium, except for the hood scoop. I'm wondering if the XS Premium will continue next year, or will the XT replace it?

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Member Posts: 72,587
    That spy photo could have been taken in Japan, who knows.

    I hope we don't get the WRX engine. It's too peaky for the heavier Forester. I hope we at least get the less powerful, 217hp version of the EJ20 that's in the JDM Forester.

    I don't think that gets the twin scroll turbo. Wasn't the twin scroll only on the STi, or some special editions of it?

    No more black cars, so I hope that's not the only color. Also, I wish they'd offer a factory window tint. CR-V has it on the EX. And two more small changes - drop the wheels and give us a sporty 5-spoke design, plus a honeycomb grille with no chrome surround.

    Then it's perfect.

    -juice
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