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Comments
Again, we don't know that it's EJ-based. That's the easy assumption, but you know what they say about "assuming."
Bob
-mike
A 4 cylinder EZ would work out to 2.0 liters with the same bore and stroke of the H6. That would be OK for the TS, I think, and might boost CAFE numbers. Maybe even bring back the Legacy Brighton? Remember those?
The L is basically gone, so there is a slot in the market below the L/SE for a Brighton.
paisan: actually, the driver's cup last year was won by a Subaru driver. And the new body style WRX won the first and last race it competed in, at least. Tommi was sort of disappointing this year, though.
-juice
-mike
-juice
-mike
* = I got a PDF of the SIA newsletter, and sure enough, a Baja turbo is mentioned for next summer.
Bob
My big hangup with all this is that if they pop a 2.5 LPT in some form of the Impreza, then I fear that the Legacy won't have a turbo in it's future - or at least it'd be dumb to have the same engine. Maybe then they'd do a AVCS version or something for a turbo, but I'm beginning to wager that the Legacy just gets an H6 of some sort instead.
Boy, the auto shows can't come quick enough, eh? Can't wait for the Chicago show in February!
-Brian
mmmmm....B4...Blitzen...dark blue
-Brian
Bob
So what does that mean? Chain cam drive, and not belt cam drive? Same bore centers? Would that be the Phase III?
this is no secret, several times since the EZ30 arrived japanese FHI spokespeople have commented publicly that a revised four cylinder based on the narrow bore-spaced six cylinder was on the way.
timing chain? who knows. I don't see an advantage honestly, and it's such a huge (and heavy) thing for a horizontally opposed engine. but since the EZ30 uses one, then yeah probably.
shrinking below 2.5L? I doubt it. that's what makes me think the EZ30 can be poked to over 3.5L... it would make sense if the design spec allowed for the current 2.5L's 99.5x79 bore & stroke.
-Colin
-Brian
-mike
Quote: All this 2.5L STI rumor stuff is coming out of Canada. Latest is that CSI (Canadian Subaru) reps went to Japan and DROVE the Canadian/US STI. It had a 2.5L motor and was described as "Unbelievable" (which, of course, may also be the adjective appropriate for this thread). It was also said to be considerably more expensive than $32K US. Of course, it's all hearsay. Nobody is saying first hand they drove one!
So, bottom line: Subaru has at least been "entertaining" the idea of a 2.5 STi. Now, as to whether it makes it into production, who knows?
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=283316
Bob
WRX-STi gets 2.5 HPT
WRX gets 2.0 HPT
Baja gets opt. 2.5 LPT
Forester gets opt. 2.5 LPT
Legacy GT gets 2.5 LPT
2005
All-new Legacy GT gets opt. 3.0 LPT
2006
7-passenger crossover gets 3.0 LPT
2007
Legacy GT-STi 3.0 HPT
Bring it on!
Bob
Like I've said here before, the '03 Legacy GT at the NY auto show had a supercharger. :-)
I really doubt they'll give N. America the only 2.5 STi.
-Dennis
-mike
Face it, the 2.5GT is a sales dud. It's not a bad value by itself, but the L/SE is just too close in features, and WAY lower in price, and that kills sales for the GT. It needs more power to differentiate itself and justify the $4 grand jump in price.
I bet we'll see a bigger EZ, probably 3.5l or so, when the next Legacy arrives, in 2005. Why? Because they'll make it wider, and allow room for them to stroke the engine a bit. Anyone want to bet? It'll take a wider track for a bigger EZ H6.
So my list:
2004
WRX-STi gets 2.0 twin-scroll/AVCS turbo
WRX gets 2.0 HPT w/new tuning
Baja gets opt. 2.5 LPT
Forester gets opt. 2.5 LPT
Legacy GT gets 2.5 LPT
2005
All-new Legacy GT keeps 2.5 LPT
All-new Outback gets 3.5l H6 standard
EZ 2.0l appears on TS wagon and Legacy Brigthon
new EZ 2.2l or 2.5l on Legacy L
2006
7-passenger crossover gets 3.5 H6
Bob is calling for turbos everywhere!
-juice
-mike
-Frank P.
-mike
Maybe if they certify the next Forester and the big SUW as trucks, like they did with the Baja, then those could get 3.0-3.5 liters and turbos.
But the car lineup has to meet the 27.5mpg CAFE standard.
-juice
I also don't think they'd surprise us and go all turbo. It would be pretty schweet though.
-Brian
Why should a car-based Pilot or Highlander be allowed to get 20.7mpg when a Subie has to get 27.5? Let's even the playing field.
I recall Subaru was at the very limit of CAFE, with exactly 27.5 CAFE. So they can't add a high volume of turbo cars without something to offset it, hence my thinking of the new EZ20 in the TS and L.
-juice
But it will allow them to put whatever engine they want in the Baja and Forester, which would then only need to average 20.7 mpg. So we might see the H6, turbos, or better yet, both. On those cars. Maybe the next Outback, too.
So they can beef up those without hurting their car CAFE numbers.
The EZ20 would offset the Legacy and Impreza upgrades, like you suggested.
-juice
Bob
Taken from the January 2003 C&D:
"This year, the company will introduce a higher-powered WRX called the WRX STi, not to mention a turbocharged Forester soon after that"
"Legacy owners are forgiven for thinking they've been forgotten....the Legacy B4 is finally headed our way and could appear in showrooms in 2004 as a 2005 model for about $30,000...In place of the current B4's 280-hp, 2.0 liter twin-turbo boxer engine, we'll see a new 2.5 liter boxer four with a single turbo...will make between 260 and 270 horsepower...will have beefier low- and highrange torque than the twin-turbo...the 3.0-liter flat-six...is being considered for a future performance-oriented Legacy...may or may not be turbocharged."
Sorry if it's choppy, just quoting the important stuff. ;-)
-Brian
-mike
-Brian
Holy cow, if the street price is $26 grand or so, that'll be hard to resist.
And if they have a 265hp 2.5l turbo, maybe Bob is right after all about the STi?
Wow, that would be huge.
-juice
It should be interesting as we get more details about all this in the next few months or so.
Now if only they'd confirm a dark blue for the blitzen...
-Brian
-juice
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284860
More/new confirmation of 2.5 STi
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284752
And... Justy when you thought you've heard every possible rumor...
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284733
Bob
-mike
I took the survey and the most common answer was that the rumor was false. I answered maybe, but it would be a surprise.
Subaru should not bring a mini car to the US. It'll kill any hope they might have of truly going upscale.
-juice
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=284860
Consider the following:
• It's well known Subaru is planning on a a "flagship" to debut around 2005.
• There have been a number of rumors stating that Subaru is working on a "sporty" car, some of which are suggesting an SVX reincarnation.
• I recently read, from one of the legit automotive news sources (not the I-Club) that Subaru and GM were (now) working on a sporty vehicle together.
Well, if this latest rumor is true, it meets all of the above criteria. To me, one of the big questions is: Which GM vehicle is this powerplant/drivetrain, is Subaru going to share this with? Saab? Pontiac? Cadillac? Chevy? Saturn? ...Buick!?
I don't know about you guys, but none of those choices makes me feel very comfortable...
There is one, perhaps two GM brands, that I *DO* feel could be a good match, however: GMC, and possibly HUMMER.
"What, are you nuts," you say. "Here's Bob going off on a Subie truck tangent again...?"
Think about it for a moment...
• Everyone here (except me) thinks a *true* Subie truck is just wrong.
• Everybody (including me) thinks *sharing* a Subie engine/drivetrain with GM is a bad idea—but we know it's going to happen, sooner or later.
That being the case, what are the best options? What GM brand do you think should get in bed with Subaru? I say share it with a truck brand, and not a car brand. Consider the following:
• GM is highly regarded in terms of trucks, much more so than in cars.
• GM has shown some real creativity (and courage) in the truck arena: Avalanche, Aztek, Chevy SSR, Quadra-steer, Auto-Trac, Chevy/GMC 1500 HD, DuraMax, Denali, GMC Envoy XUV (ala the Studebaker Wagonaire), etc.
• GM has shown some wild concept pickups (Chevy Borrego, with the Subie 2.5 H-4*), with many great ideas, so they've got good people working in the truck product-planning area.
• GM has been trying to position GMC as the premium truck brand (the "Professional Grade" truck).
• GMC could really use a unique vehicle, that shares nothing with its Chevy cousin, to set it apart, and to truly position it as a "premium" brand.
And, if you think the H-8 is a bad idea for a truck engine, consider the following:
• The (alloy) Viper V-10 and the (iron) Ram V-10 share much in common.
• The Tundra 4.7 V8 evolved from the Lexus 4.0/4.3 V8.
• The upcoming Nissan full-size pickup will have a V8 that evolved from the Infiniti Q45.
I also mentioned HUMMER as a possibility. Here, however, I could see the 2.5 H-4 being used in a mini- Hummer H4, as a Wrangler competitor, rather than the H-8. Although, the H1 is getting rather long-in-the-tooth, and could be due for a replacement. It's been around for almost 20 years, and I know the military is looking at other options. I know for a fact that the military is looking at production-based pickups as a possible H1 replacement. Dodge, Ford and GM have shown publicly such vehicles recently. The H-8 could possibly work there...
So, the idea of a Subie H-8, being used in a truck may not be such a goofy idea afterall. I really do think it would be the *least offensive* to Subie folks. And, if done properly, could knock the socks off the truck world.
It would not surprise me one bit, if we see an H-8 concept vehicle on the auto show circuit in the next couple of years, wearing a GMC badge, as the H-8 nears production.
* = http://www.automotive-technology.com/projects/chevy_borrego/chevy_borrego3.html
Bob
Bob
Think about a flat eight's layout and why it really would be any advantage over an inline six of the same displacement. There is a reason boxer engines are like hen's teeth in the industry-- bad packaging for practical cars. Anyway, the inline six could be low too, because it could be mounted laying to one side (as BMW does, about 35 degrees to the driver's side). It requires a longer hood than the flat eight, but could fit a lot more accessories on either side and fit between much narrower fenders. plus it would make far better low-end torque, having a significantly longer stroke with fewer cylinders and not being a flat layout. highly oversquare engines are the name of the game with the flat layout-- it's the only way to get reasonable displacement for an engine of a given physical size (width).
anyway-- that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
-Colin
My thoughts exactly!!!!
-Frank P.
-Colin
Bob
-Colin
To me, the Subaru/GMC solution makes the most sense so far. I sure don't want to see a Pontiac or Buick with Subie running gear...
Bob
that type of relationship between some GM domestic brand and Subaru might not be in the cards for some time-- the new Saab 9-3 is the first GM powerplant in a Saab, and it still gets unique cylinder heads, a displacement not previously used by other GMs, and a turbo (no other GM version of the engine currently has that).
-Colin