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Comments
Bob
"the 3.0-liter flat-six...is being considered for a future performance-oriented Legacy...may or may not be turbocharged."
-Brian
--dave
-mike
• Everybody (including me) thinks *sharing* a Subie engine/drivetrain with GM is a bad idea—but we know it's going to happen, sooner or later."
Not EVERYONE!
-mike
Bob
-mike
• Like the original SVX, this engine would not be shared with "lesser" Subarus, therefore further enhancing its special status.
• One of the reasons the premium Acura RL has not been the sales hit anticipated, is because it has a V6 engine, whereas all its (main) competitor, Lexus, offers a V8.
• The Ford F-150 and Chevy Silverado have been the best selling vehicles in America for over a decade. That suggests to me that there's plenty of room for even more truck/engine diversity.
• GMC does not share all the negative "image" baggage; that many, if not all, their car divisions have.
Bob
Wait, someone already said that!
Welcome back Dave, it's been ages! Where you been hidin'?
Bob: I do agree with some of your thoughts, especially GM's truck image being worlds ahead of its car image. And the volume thing, to amortize costs. But I see it differently.
We have some new info to digest: Canada is getting a special base Outback with the H6. Think about that for a minute...
-juice
* the H6 will become the base engine in the Outback for 2005 (optional on 2004s though)
* the VDC and LL Bean will get the H8 in 2005, and finally will become the premium upscale models they currently aspire to be
* the SVX shares the H8 and production volume is reasonable
Audi's 2.7T is a great engine, but even those models got V8s for the image. The next S4, too.
What about GM? They might plagiarize a couple of Subies, then again maybe not. The Baja is struggling in terms of sales, that may kill the Borrego idea.
Did you guys see the ads for huge rebates on Saturns now? That's it, GM officially killed what was left of Saturn's uniqueness. Chevy will get a Vue clone, the L series is an Opel and a flop, the Ion doesn't look good (leopard skin pillar stickers?). What's the point?
GM should eliminate Pontiac (which only pretends to be sporty) and phase out Buick (customers are dying off, literally, anyway). I'd even cancel Saturn, just keep the sales model and make all GM divisions sell their cars that way.
-juice
* the SVX shares the H8 and production volume is reasonable >>
Do you really think the VDC/Bean would get/share the H-8 with an SVX-type vehicle? I don't. If the H-8 does occur, I think it will only occur on the "El-Primo" Subie, whatever that is, and some "special" GM truck.
I really think only a full-size, or full-size-lite* "truck" (where 8-cylinder engines are the rule, rather than the exception) can generate the kind of sales volume needed to make such an engine economically feasible.
* = Tundra size
Bob
Let's see how the Passat W8 sells, but the VDC could target that car. Priced lower, it could be the bargain 8 cylinder AWD of the car world, not a bad angle to take if you think about it. The W8 is a little too costly, maybe $35k MSRP would do.
-juice
2) The GT name will finally mean something. The GT will finally be a GT as a result of a fire breathing 2.5L turbo making 275hp and 275 ft/lb of torque by 2006. The GT will be actual top of the line (not the Outback) Subaru and get everything standard. That includes leather, VDC, HID, traction control, heated everyting, fancy stereo and anyting else you can think of. It will only be available totally loaded. You will only have the option of an 5-spd auto or 6-spd manual. It will be able to take over small countries and change the tides too.
I guess if you rely on the Legacy L/SE picking up the slack, that might be OK.
But then you'd have a HUGE gap from the L to the GT. Probably a $10 grand gap, big enough to drive a Kia through.
-juice
Bob
Makes sense to me, Bob. I'm thinking the next Forester should be registered as a truck to get away from the CAFE restrictions, too. Baja did, so now that Subaru started doing that, they might not stop. The 2005 SUW, too.
-juice
"But then you'd have a HUGE gap from the L to the GT"
The L and the GT would be essentially separate "brands". The L is what is it....value. The GT would just be to take customers from Volvo/Audi/Saab. It would the crown jewel of Subaru if I had my way. For example the GT sedan would have the 275hp engine + everything for $38k ($39k for the wagon). It would be a larger WRX with more sedate design. It would be about $6k less than the way overpriced BMW 330xi and about the same price as the Volvo XC70. About $4k less than the Audi A6. If you want Subaru to be a premium brand that can safely crack the $30k barrier you have to offer premium vehicles. I dont consider the VDC premium or upscale. I dont think most people do either.
What is the MSRP for those? $33k? That's a pretty severe erosion in value and resale. Not at all upscale traits.
And I've pointed out before - the year after the H6 arrived, combined sales of the H4+H6 were actually lower than the H4 alone. That's a disaster, higher costs, lower sales.
So, forget premium. VW filled that slot anyway, with the 4Mo and the W8, and soon the Touareg and Phaeton. Instead, go for pure performance. It's worked so far - Impreza sales doubled.
So I say go with Performance and Value. Remove the word "premium" from the vocabulary completely.
-juice
1) The MSRP of the H6 VDC was closer in line with other V6 vehicles that are not premium brands (well under $28k fully loaded). They could have ditched the fancy stereo and the LL Bean variant and just made the OB a better car all around by making the H6 and VDC standard and offering a 5spd (see below).
2) The H6 did not feel like such a dog off line OR a 5spd manual was an option. Something that sparked of a little performance. The H4 is almost too good I guess because even though the H6 is better in every way it just does not translate to every day driving to the tune of $3000-6000 difference.
3) It had other things that could provide more value other than AWD....like HID, navigation, more power (like in the 250-275 range like an Envoy). I dont count the sound system (which is excellent) as content because to most value minded customers its not really a selling point and you could do much better in the aftermarket for the price difference (if it really matters that much to you). Perhaps in the $60k range one would pay more for the Levenson system but not at $30k.
Even the price we got for my wifes OB Ltd. was on the high end of where I thought fair market value was for that car. If other cars in at $25k from brands on par with Subaru have V6s then the OB should have the H6 standard + AWD + one more thing (price, even more content) to attact customers.
Premium, performance, and value all go together. I would not separate them. I think that VW filled the niche because Subaru dropped the ball. They totally misread what the makret would would tolerate. They could have sold a $32+k car but it need to have what other $32+k cars (Acura/Lexus/Audi) have like close to 250hp, HID, manual transmission and so on. BUT what Subaru did was add an anemic H6 (with the auto), fancy stereo, and VDC (which about 23 people care about even though its really cool) to the OB Ltd which was selling at $25k (street) and raise the MSRP to $33k. Thats an $8000 bad idea. Not in retrospect either because I said it way way back then too. They could have just asked me and I would have told them. Well, I told them anyway but nobody listened.
For #2, I think a 5 speed auto is what's needed. A 5 speed manual would have brought it more good press, but not sales. I think 93% of cars are bought with automatics, plus autos fit the character of that car.
Not sure I agree with your 3rd point. The price was too high. They should have offered just the H6 at first, then slowly introduce VDC, Macintosh, and maybe HIDs and a Nav system later, as stand-alone, low volume options.
Reviews basically went like this: competent overall but THIRTY THREE GRAND? They simply could not get over the price.
So I sort of disagree with the whole concept of taking Subaru, a traditionally value-conscious brand, upscale. It's an oxymoron.
What if you could choose 2 out of these 3:
Performance
Value
Luxury
What would you choose? To me it's easy, value and performance.
-juice
I dunno about the SE trim staying around too long either. Subaru also had the "30th Anniversary Edition" on the previous generation L 1-2 years before they switched the line. It's the same thing Honda does before they do a model change.
Yes, the H6 VDC was priced above what the market would bear but I do think it has strategic significance in trying to make the impression of a "premium" Subaru model. VW certainly didn't get there overnight with their Passat line. Remeber when it was a clunky, middle of the road kind of vehicle? Perceptions take a while to change.
Ken
I still say they should bring back a Brighton with a 2.0l to help CAFE numbers.
-juice
I really like your idea of stand alone options. Things like nav, stereo, and HID could even be installed at the dealer if needed in a matter of 20 minutes by a tech. The offering of stand lone options appeals to me because they could then test what people wanted and then make the popular options standard. It would have been cool if the H6 was a $1000 on any Legacy. Or standard on the LSE. I would have sold it as follows: Why on earth would anyone get a Camry or Accord when you could get AWD, better dynamics, H6 AND similar reliability for the same price!!!.
By the way we would have LOVED the VDC for $26k. Even $27k and perhaps given it a look at $28k. My wife drove it again a few weeks ago since he car is basically paid off (next week) just to make sure we were not too harsh on it. Nope, the first impression was correct. Nice car but not worth the upgrade over her H4 OB Ltd. I pretty sure she is going to hand on to her H4 for a while.
Bob
Ken
:-D
-Colin
They have OnStar, and that uses satellite signals, so in some models the equipment might even be in place (I know little about the technology so feel free to correct me if I'm way off).
Same with HIDs, sell it as a stand-alone kit, along with other accessories. It would be no different than a bike rack. And you could use the Chase Visa bucks, so it would sell well, I bet.
-juice
I'll take a 540i 6 speed, any day, but the wagon only comes with auto! :-(
-juice
:-D
-someone must be watching ? !
GM has a great 5EAT tranny that is used in the CTS and the BMW 3 series including the AWD 3 series. It might be worth it for FHI to harness some of that GM influence to use this as an in-expensive way to get a 5EAT tranny in their vehicles. Here is a link to the tranny.
http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/hydra/apps/5l40.htm
-mike
-Brian
5EAT - I seem to recall 5EAT mentioned in an article on apexjapan.com that had an interview with an FHI exec. I think he said they were working on one.
-Dennis
Bob
-mike
Bob
-Brian
Bob
Just some food for thought especially for subaru to save some $$$$
-mike
I'm not sure it would be less expensive, or as efficient. With a Subie trans-axle, you don't have the additional driveshaft, and associated hardware.
I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
Bob
Not sure about fit, but at least Bimmers use a longitudinal layout as well.
-juice
You may be correct about the transaxle though, but there may be a version of the tranny that has transverse outputs, kinda like the H2 using the same transmission as the corvette, the vette one has a lightly different output method IIRC.
-mike
but I don't know that switching to that style would be more expensive than developing to a 5 speed automatic transaxle...
transaxle is only an advantage when you have a lower-equipped FWD model. if you don't have one of those, as Subaru does not in the US and may never have at all for vehicles using the 5spd AT, then there's no problem adapting the chassis & suspension to a tranny with a separate front differential.
-Colin
The photos aren't great, and they're white cars in the snow! Notice that there appears to be tape over the Forester's "model/engine size" badge on the rear hatch. Hmmm...
Bob
-mike
Ed
Bob