Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

shipo · November 2007

Yeah, I found that too after I wrote you that previous post. Hmmm, I have a fairly accurate memory for stuff like this and I'm quite positive that when the RDX was first being released, Honda and/or Acura issued a press release in conjunction with Mobil Oil that specifically stated that 0W-20 was the only approved oil for that car.

Now it seems that 5W-30 is the only approved oil. Hmmm, I smell a rat. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

roadburner · November 2007

Now it seems that 5W-30 is the only approved oil.

The same thing happened with the Mazda 2.3 DISI Turbo; the early owners manuals call for 5W-20, but the newer ones call for 5W-30. The only oil specs mentioned are the API Starburst and API Service SM. In any event, I'm getting a UOA at 3000 miles to see how the Mobil 1 is holding up.

shipo · November 2007

..., I cannot find any references that connect Honda's HTO-06 test with Mobil 0W-20. Annoying as I'm absolutely positive that I saw a joint Honda/Mobil press release from late 2005 or early 2006 that specifically stated 0W-20. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

krzyss · November 2007

they found that 0W20 is too thin for their turbo application and quietly changed the spec.

Subaru is not changing its oil specification but all turbo engines are now on "severe duty" schedule. It means 3750 OCI instead of 7500.

One of the reasons I bought 05 Legacy GT was long OCI.

Krzys

PS It seems that other manufacturers are following VW mistakes. Let's introduce advanced engines and forget about proper lubricants.

tired_old_dave · November 2007

"Why don't you just throw a stick of dynamite......
Here we go on Amsoil again."
See, nothing bad happened. Sometimes my fingers just type things.

If you trace my posts you will see my fingers on the keyboard told Z to go home (good for both continents and came true many months later), mentioned we (don't include this old veteran in that group) spent our treasury and we now see how it has contributed to the cost of oil including the work done by speculators-who throughout history seem to be precursors of recessions. Slick 50 had dealers, then they were dismissed by the direct markerting program. I don't know but maybe we should watch for a marketing change at amsoil(or redline?), specially with questions concerning who is putting what in their bottles.

And noticed the following dumbed down words were not used, absolutely (yes), actually (is), and a third word is not stuck in my brain cell at this time.

shipo · November 2007

Dave, either you really are old and tired (per your claims), or maybe it's just my brain that's old and tired. Regardless, I don't think I've ever understood even a single sentence of any of the posts you've ever made, the last one included.

So, without further ado, "Say what?" :confuse:

Best Regards,
Shipo

tired_old_dave · November 2007

No problem. You are definitely not alone.

wtd44 · November 2007

I don't feel that we are at odds, but rather, we are philosophizing over the value of our time. Thus, I made reference to each of us being entertained by our preferences in engine lubricants and the management of our vehicles. Neither you nor I can "afford" to spend our time beneath the engines of our transportation pieces, unless we do so for some human sustenance need attributed to the psychological realm. That said, I would point out that any of us in this forum must surely, by proof of our presence here, have time available to be entertained by things automotive. And that does not obviate changing our own oil. Can we at least agree on that?

shipo · November 2007

Agreed, but I can flit in here, read a post or two, make a post and get back to work in just a few minutes. I guess for folks who smoke, what I do is roughly analogous to a cigarette break. :-)

An oil change means getting up, from either my work or my family and heading out to the garage.

Best Regards,
Shipo

tired_old_dave · November 2007

Does your wally world carry a grade other than Super Tech 5w20 and 5w30 synthetic oil. Have seen over the years that products are cherry picked for the most commonly used sizes etc. Fully aware that the other vehicle manufacturer likes 0w40.

No big deal, just pondering with pinkie another marketing observation. No, not interested in those grades or doing a 4x4 oil change more than have to, but it is nicer than the diesel we used to own.

krzyss · November 2007

I am having some problems with Mobil 1 0W40, it means it is not always available but Mobil 1 5W30 seems to be glued to the shelves.

Krzys

shipo · November 2007

Yeah, I've found that Wallyworld doesn't always stock 0W-40, however, all of our local AutoZone stores try to keep it in stock. I've simply started calling the closest AutoZone a few days in advance of when I'm going to be shopping and ask them to put a dozen quarts (I use it in both of our cars) aside for me. On the few occasions where they didn't have any (or enough) in stock, they ordered it and had it in within a day or two.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo · November 2007

Yeah, I've found that Wallyworld doesn't always stock 0W-40, however, all of our local AutoZone stores try to keep it in stock. I've simply started calling the closest AutoZone a few days in advance of when I'm going to be shopping and ask them to put a dozen quarts (I use it in both of our cars) aside for me. On the few occasions where they didn't have any (or enough) in stock, they ordered it and had it in within a day or two.

Best Regards,
Shipo

smokey75 · November 2007

I understand that if your vehicle manufacturer recommends 10w30 or 5w30 you should be able to use 0w30 in its place. Can anyone figure out this recommendation by Hyundai? In the owner's manual it has a graph for the recommended oil viscosity. It shows 20w40 & 20w50 in a range from 32F to greater than 100F. It shows 10w30, 10w40, & 10w50 in a range from -9F to greater than 100F. It shows 5w30 & 5w40 in a range from less than -20F to 95F. If the 10w30 is ok for well above 100F why would they not recommend the 5w30 for anything above 95F. Aren't these essentially the same oil when warm?

shipo · November 2007

For conventional oil, no, they are not essentially the same, or at least not the same as they age. Conventional oil needs lots of Viscosity Improvers (VIs) to create multi grade oils, and the wider the spread, the more VIs are required to create the oil. As the oil ages, the VIs are depleted and the warm viscosity of the oil drops.

As for the few PAO based synthetic oils on the market, the operating temperature difference between a 0W-30, 5W-30 and 10W-30 are practically nil. Why? Because the PAO base is so stable that it doesn't thin out as much as conventional oil when warm and as such, it requires far fewer VIs (if any at all) to maintain the 30 weigh rating when warm.

All that said, for your car I'd probably run 0W-30 for at least the first 75,000 miles, and then possibly switch to 0W-40 after that.

Best Regards,
Shipo

smokey75 · November 2007

Yeah, didn't think about that. And the manual is written with conventional in mind. Why do you suggest switching to OW-40 after 75,000 miles?

shipo · November 2007

Correct or otherwise, I think that as the engine ages a bit it's not such a bad idea to use a slightly heavier oil.

Both of our current cars came from the factory requiring 5W-30, and now that they are over 100,000 miles, their UOAs from running 0W-40 are like those of a new car.

Best Regards,
Shipo

pear69 · November 2007

In my opinion, if you live in the United States there is never a need to use any oil as
heavy as 20w50 or any w50,,unless there is a racing application. It just doesn't get that hot for long enough periods.. 0w30 to 10w30 in the winter , and 0w40 to 10w40 in the summer ( fully or semi synthetic DO NOT MIX). I do not use conventional oil anymore because synthetic oil flows far better at start up..
and probably most importantly, synthetic oils--take in--absorb--flow--"what ever you want to call it"--- more bad stuff than conventional oils do, period.
Always remember this, the job of oil in your engine is not only to lubricate it but, most importantly, to create a pressurized wedge between moving metal parts, while taking contanimants to the filter. It must flow undisturbed all the time. This is not an easy task considering there is usually no pressure at startup

unless you have some type of pump that pressureizes the oil system before you turn the key , and the wedge is usually 1 or 2 thousandths of an inch (.001or.002) in most cars. Sometimes it's down to the ten thousandths of an inch(.0001). The faster this wedge is developed and maintained the better.
Think of it this way, in the winter its cold, everything contracts or tightens up in your motor. Oil should be lighter at start up and lighter at running temp. because it's cold. In the summer everything expands or loosens up. Oil should also be light at start up to get that wedge up faster, however, it doesn't have to be so light at running temp. because of the higher outside temperature.

wtd44 · November 2007

I just read the other day a statement from a credentialed mechanic that film strength is a product of viscosity and viscosity alone-- regardless of mineral base or synthetic base. It caught my attention.

smss · November 2007

I always go to a mechanic for oil changes but after reading this I have a few questions. What type of oil/ and how often should it be changed for a 2001 Cadillac catera? I always try to stay within 3000 miles. Is this still correct? I'm not familiar with the synthetics- Thanks

roadburner · November 2007

What type of oil/ and how often should it be changed for a 2001 Cadillac catera?

You should check your owners manual to be sure, but I believe that the 3.0 liter V6 in your car uses 10W-30. If you run conventional oil, I'd just make sure that it has the SM rating and change it every 5000 miles. If you run a good synthetic such as Mobil 1, I'd stretch the changes out to no less than 7500 miles.

tedebear · November 2007

How often you should change the oil has a lot to do with your driving habits. I recommend a 3,000 mile change interval for severe duty, such as a lot of short trips, city driving, or dusty roads.

I follow this 3,000 mile schedule on my car even though I do more regular duty type driving. I use conventional Valvoline 5W-30 oil.

For my wife's car with a turbo I use Mobil 1 synthetic and change it every 5,000 miles. She does a lot of short trips of 10 miles or less.

wtd44 · November 2007

Yep, those turbocharged engines need close attention. I had a turbo Chrysler LeBaron many years ago, and I never had a problem with the turbo equipment. I changed oil and filter every 3K miles. I recall using oil that said something about being certified for turbo use, but it was not a special product. It simply stated on the label that it was good for such use.

smokey75 · November 2007

I realize this is not a mower forum but as far as the oil goes, is it better to change it before I put the mower away for winter or after winter when I'm getting it ready to use?

dieselone · November 2007

It's generally better to change to oil after the mowing season and store with clean oil. If your really care about your mower, go ahead and spray some oil in the cylinder via spark plug hole or carb.

This is what I do with my seasonal equipment and our boat. I change oil once a year at the end of the season. Then everything is ready to go in the spring.

pulgo · November 2007

Adding a bit of fuel stabilizer to the gasoline in the tank and letting it run (to circulate the treated gas) for a few minutes is even better.

tired_old_dave · December 2007

Been to bitog again and saw the link to the oil guru where thinner is better. But also remember one smart poster and paraphrasing the post - yes (not absolutely) buy the new max oil (no starburst there-very interesting) for engines over 75k miles because you have to because they have been selling you wee wee water. Our thickest 5w30 that acts like a 40wt, is starting beautifully (dfw has had some cool days - not at zero F yet). Mpg is not down but a little up can only speculate a/c not running, winterized fuel not in the system yet, cooler moister air, who knows, don't care, mpg's are not down. On a footnote, still waiting for my rebate from o'reillys.

mo_shade_tree · December 2007

I have read a few of the comments and was wondering - I have a '04 Suburban w/75K miles. I have owned it since new and even though it has the oil change indicator - I have been letting the dealer change the oil every 3K. Now that my warranty is about to expire @ 80K, I am going to change my own oil. My question is 1) should I start using a syn blend? 2) Does the brand matters - The dealer was using reg Castrol. I was think of using their syn blend. 3) Should I start using 0w30 instead of 5w30. The truck uses no oil between changes and for the most part is used as a big over-priced minivan. 4) Is the Purolator PureOne oil filter better than the GM filter? 5) Can I increase the oil change from 3K to 5K by using the Syn Blend. Thanks for the comments - In advance.

chetj · December 2007

Motorcraft synblend is a pretty good oil for only $10.30 at wal mart...i think you are babying your truck too much, a good oil can go 7500 miles...check out the used oil analyses at bitog...i imagine any filter is ok with a good oil(api cerified) and 7500 oci

tired_old_dave · December 2007

Fool me once versus bird in the hand.
Still waiting on oreilly's.
"We have received your submission and it is being processed. Submission status information is updated daily. Please continue to check this website to find the mail date for your submission."

tired_old_dave · December 2007

Was it this post or perhaps a corporate accounting year issue. The check is supposed to be sent late next week.

shipo · December 2007

...once again you've lost me. I have no idea what you're talking about. :confuse:

New Happy Year!

Best Regards,
Shipo

richardson · December 2007

I second that. I think Dave is posting in the wrong place. Jim Richardson

tedebear · December 2007

Plus, if it's the O'Reilly's oil rebate I think he's talking about I received the discount instantly at the checkout - nothing to mail in.

tired_old_dave · December 2007

#3258 of 3334 A better experience by tired_old_dave Oct 09, 2007 (2:48 pm)
Total Posts: 477

O'Reilly's oil promotion runs 9/26-10/30/2007. Stopped in this afternoon, bought a case of synthetic oil and was given a rebate for purchase price refund. Went on line to O'Reilly and started the rebate procedure-paperwork going in tomorrow.

(Sold on redline, but bought 'free' syn oil at o'reilly's-what's that all about.)

wtd44 · January 2008

Here in the Pikes Peak Region we don't seem to have O'Reilly, but Checker does abound. I have really good luck with Checker rebates. I rarely buy motor oil anywhere else.

merg1 · January 2008

Anyone have experience using high mileage oil that's on the market for cars over 75,000 miles? My '96 Corolla has 118,000 and runs great. Now considering trying Castrol High Mileage 5/30. The Corolla owners manual recommends "energy conserving" oil. While the high mileage oil meets the API recommendation for the car, it's not labeled energy conserving. Would using it cause any harm to the engine?

dtownfb · January 2008

I've tried the high mileage oil (not Catrol) and did not notice any diffrence except my wallet was lighter. If your car is running great, why change. Obviously what you are doing has been working.

No it will not cause any harm to your car.

wtd44 · January 2008

At that mileage on the Corolla, you might experiment with one oil and filter change where you use 10W-30 instead of the 5W-30, and evaluate how you like the sound of the engine, performance, etc. If any of your engine wear and tear has increased clearances a little, the heavier oil will "fill" the gaps with more cushioning, you might say. If you do not like the result of the oil change, just immediately go back to the 5W-30.

imidazol97 · January 2008

Theoretically the two oils 5W-30 and 10W-30 both end up at the same viscosity at the normal temperature in the engine. They only differ during the colder, startup and early warmup phase with the 5W being thinner than the 10W at a given temperature. When they both hit the hot walls of the cylinders and the valve lifter areas they operate the same.

I'm with wdt44. Try the 10W and you'll probably not notice any difference unless you are in a climate where it gets to 20 deg. F and below. Then the motor might crank slightly slower. If it gets below 0 you'd want to use 5W.

One quart in 3000 is not a high oil use rate. It's almost too good for an engine with 100K on it. Check your PCV if it's never been changed and make sure it's not sucking oil vapors out that should be recycled back into the motor.

Save your money on the "special" oil. It consider it a marketing gimmick, sort of like "winter" fertilizer for your lawn. The one report I read noted they seemed to be at the higher end of the viscosity range for their group. That's how they slow oil use.

dtownfb · January 2008

>

Actually using the right fertilizer in early November is very beneficial to the health of your lawn over the winter. But I do agree the "special" oil are gimmicks. Sorry it's the engineer in me coming out.

imidazol97 · January 2008

Check your carspace email for lawn comment.

My reading on the oils was that while a 10W-30 might test at 30 for viscosity, the high mileage version might test at 36, e.g. The higher viscosity helps the normal oil-burning with a little age and mileage. Myself I prefer to just check and add oil if needed between changes. Or I change early if it's 2800 and the oil's down 2/3 quart, change time instead of waiting for 3500.

tired_old_dave · January 2008

#3335 of 3342 This forum is still alive by tired_old_dave Dec 28, 2007 (8:09 am)
Total Posts: 478

#3258 of 3334 A better experience by tired_old_dave Oct 09, 2007 (2:48 pm)
Total Posts: 477

O'Reilly's oil promotion runs 9/26-10/30/2007. Stopped in this afternoon, bought a case of synthetic oil and was given a rebate for purchase price refund. Went on line to O'Reilly and started the rebate procedure-paperwork going in tomorrow.

wtd44 · January 2008

What states does O'Reilly call home?

smokey75 · January 2008

Ok, I'm frustrated. I have a 2001 Nissan Pathfinder with just over 100,000 miles. This is Nissan's 3.5L VQ series V6. I've been getting high silicon & lead readings from used oil analysis and figure out what's going on. The air filter seems to have a good seal & it looks clean just downstream of the filter. I don't see any obvious cracks on the intake.

I did not have good luck with Amsoil Synthetic 5w30 running it for 1 year with their air filter & oil filter. I did it for 1 year & did not get good results... way out of viscosity, no TBN, & high wear metals. I decided to try it again for a year & had similar results. Here is that UOA.

I then ran Amsoil Synthetic 5w30 for 6 months & here is that UOA.

Then I switched to Mobil 1 5w30 & filter & replaced the Amsoil Ea air filter with a new Nissan OEM air filter to see if that was where my silicon was coming from. I ran this for 6 months & here is the latest UOA.

Please help!!! What do you guys think?

shipo · January 2008

Hmmm, my first comment is, "Wow, your engine is hard on oil."

Regarding the silicone, I'm thinking that you have either a loose or cracked vacuum hose, a loose fitting somewhere between the air filter and the intake plenum, or (unlikely though it may be) a blown intake manifold gasket. While I have no data or anything to back this up, my gut guess is that the silicone is not from some kind of a gasket or additive.

The lead is annoying as well. I wonder if you somehow damaged the engine bearings from your first Amsoil run (the one that had a zero TBN reading), and now as time goes on, they're starting to go round the bend on you.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be inclined to switch to something a bit heavier like a Mobil 1 0W-40 as it has a MUCH better TBN number (usually between 12.2 and 12.5) than the 5W-30 (usually between 7.5 and 8.0).

FWIW, we have two minivans with 3.8 liter engines that call for 5W-30, and both have over 100,000 miles. Under the assumption that over years the engines on our vans have loosened up a bit since they rolled out of the factory I think a little extra viscosity is a good thing and as such I started using Mobil 1 0W-40 some 70,000 miles ago. The good news is that the engines seem to love that oil as evidenced by how well they run, the exceptional fuel economy, and the stellar UOAs that I get after 10,000 mile OCIs.

FWIW #2, I do have one 0W-40 UOA with almost exactly 7,500 miles on it and the TBN was still 4.4 (I usually have 2.0 or less after 10,000 miles).

I hope some of this helps.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blufz1 · January 2008

"And now a voice from the less technically burdened side". Looks like you ought change your oil at 6k w/M1 and save you testing money, pard.

shipo · January 2008

Uhhh, I'm confused. I run 10,000 to 12,000 mile with Mobil 1 and the oil UOAed every year and a half or so (every 45,000 to 50,000 miles). Why on earth would I want to start changing my oil every 6,000 miles? Geez, at the rate that my wife and I drive, that would mean an oil change every six weeks or so. No thanks. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

blufz1 · January 2008

My bad. I was replying to Smokey75. I'm up to 6k/1yr. from 3750 using M1 extended performance, thanks to you and Ruking. Thanks, again.

smokey75 · January 2008

Thanks for the reply. Someone on BITOG also suggested a vacuum leak. I've also had a suggestion of a PCV leak. Is there a way to check for these if I can't visually find a leak? As for changing to 6,000 mile intervals.... there is a problem with my car that is causing abnormally short oil life. It's crazy to be dropping TBN this fast with quality oils. I really want to get to the bottom of it & not just put the blinders on until my engine dies. Coincidentally, when I changed the oil this last time I went with German Castrol Syntec 0w30.

Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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