Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

jipster

...made a comment in oil change/ fiascos about not using "cheap oil". What exactly is the definition of cheap oil...one that is not certified to meet the ASE(?) standards? I always thought of "cheap oil" as some off name brand oil that you buy in a convience store or supermarket.

For the record I use Valvoline and Pennzoil.
While I have heard a few negative comments on both, they seem to be two of the most popular motor oils used.

shipo

Cheap oil is just what the moniker suggests, oil that is very inexpensive. While there are exceptions to every rule (clearance sales and such), engine oil generally follows the rule of "You get what you pay for."

As for Pennzoil and Valvoline being two of the most popular oils, yeah, I suppose, especially since as I understand it, Pennzoil owns Jiffy Boob. That said, I've not seen any compelling evidence in recent years that would convince me to start using oil from either brand, regardless of cost.

My personal rules for engine oil are as follows:

- Regular use cars: Mobil 1 0W-40 or Castrol Syntec 0W-30*

- Occasional use cars that don't require synthetic oil (I don't currently own any car that meets this criteria): Havoline 5W-30

- Air cooled "Boxer Six" spark ignition light aircraft engine: AeroShell W100 Plus (conventional oil)

- Water cooled I4 compression ignition light aircraft engine: AeroShell Diesel 10W-40 (synthetic oil)

- Air cooled home and lawn engines (i.e. lawn mower, garden tractor, snow thrower and household generator): Havoline 5W-30

*In the unlikely event that I get seduced by the power of something like a Chrysler Hemi, then I'd use Mobil 1 0W-20.

Best Regards,
Shipo

imidazol97

>Air cooled home and lawn engines (i.e. lawn mower, garden tractor, snow thrower and household generator): Havoline 5W-30

I use a 30 weight oil for the lawn mower. The mechanic at the Toro garage explained that 10W-30 is rated for temperatures reached in the controlled environs of the autoengine with a water-cooled jacket around it limiting temperatures. He stated that the temperature in an air-cooled product can go higher and the multiviscosity oils break down to a lower relative hot viscosity rating than do the single molecule rating oil like a 30.
So I bought a case of Shell 30 weight when on sale.

shipo

Wouldn't work around here. Try pull starting a lawn mower on a cold fall morning with the OAT hovering in the forties. I need to do that at least twice per year. Then there is my generator and my snow blower. I've needed to start them both up in sub-zero temperatures. No thanks on the S.A.E. 30W thing.

By the way, it used to be true that multiviscosity oils would break down from the heat of an air cooled engine run on a hot summer day, but that hasn't been the case for MANY years. Modern multi-weight oils are more than a match for a year's worth of operations, and then some.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blufz1

I use 10w-30 Mobil 1 extended performance oil in Texas heat. Change it apprx every 10 mows then after my last mow for the season.

jipster

Why dawging "Jiffy Boob"? They did a better job than my most recent oil change at dealership.

Compelling evidence? I've never seen/read anything to indicate one oil is better than another...other than peoples personal opinion on the matter. Why put in the more expensive $2.50 a quart oil, whose higher price is more a reflection on recouping advertising costs... than the $1.75 oil which meets the same specifications?

shipo

"Compelling evidence? I've never seen/read anything to indicate one oil is better than another..."

You haven't? :confuse: Then apparently you haven't looked. Go and check out the VOA and UOA databases on the BITOG web site. There you will see a huge amount of evidence suggesting that (as a general rule), more expensive oils protect better and/or last longer than cheaper oils. This isn't to say that an oil that costs $1.85 won't protect better and/or last longer than an oil that costs $1.99, however, the data there will absolutely prove that oil that costs $5.00 per quart will be significantly more robust than oils costing half that much.

Best Regards,
Shipo

tired_old_dave

"By the way, it used to be true that multiviscosity oils would break down from the heat of an air cooled engine run on a hot summer day, but that hasn't been the case for MANY years. Modern multi-weight oils are more than a match for a year's worth of operations, and then some."

If modern multi's can survive the air cooled mower in our hot summers, then it should be just fine in a water cooled motor?

Currently M1 5-30 in a B&S motor. Blue smoke on start up. Think I may use the 30w bottle of B&S that came with it.

Was it in the 80's or 90's that Mobil1 would send out the one million mile bmw race track run brochure with the end result that the specs on the motor would pass the new build tolerances. 0w40 mobil 1 in our crd would produce liquid and tar and was cleaned where possible with simple green. High noack numbers and yet doubt the 40w designation. Last fill was with redline 15-40 diesel-should've used it from day one (after a break in with shell oil)and not trust dcx and 0w40.

Not trying to be a forum hog-and butting in to an old discussion-but seriously looking for a comfortable oil for both our vehicles that we love.

Vacillating from redline (poe issues at bitog) to amsoil xl [(star burst for warranty reasons) expensive groupiii?] to regular oil and even to stay with mobil1 jugs unless the price goes up.

shipo

For starters, I wouldn't use Mobil 1 (or any other synthetic for that matter) in any occasional use engine. Period, full stop, the end.

As for Mobil 1 in your CRD, I wasn't aware that Mobil 1 0W-40 was certified for that engine. I could be wrong, however, as I've never researched that oil for Diesel applications. That said, Mobil does market at least one Mobil 1 offering made specifically for Diesels (IIRC it's a 5W-40), and it is available at Wally World amough other places.

Regarding your comments of high Noack numbers, ummmm, maybe I missed it, however, I've never seen any credible evidence to suggest that the 0W-40 Noack was at all out of line with European car standards, and as such, fairly low.

Best Regards,
Shipo

fredvh

Shipo
How does Quaker State(regular) shape up? I have used it in my cars for many years.

shipo

In the interest of full disclosure; I'm probably not the right person to be asking about Quaker State. Why? Prior to my stint as a professional wrench back in the 1970s, I was an avid Quaker State devotee. Then I started tearing down engines (my own included) that had been religiously maintained with Quaker State (or other Pennsylvania Grade Crude oils such as Pennzoil and Wolf's Head) and I noticed a common characteristic in those engines that didn't exist in Valvoline and Havoline lubricated engines. The characteristic? Sludge. Maybe not the exact same "Sludge" that we are now associating with Toyotas, Saabs, Audis, VWs and 2.7 liter Chryslers, but sludge none-the-less. In fact, that sludge was so vile that simply pulling the intake manifold off a relatively young V8 of that era (an engine with say 80,000 miles on the clock) would make one want to retch.

Do those makes of oil still cause the same paraffin related issues? Don't know, don't care. They stiffed me and my customers so badly once that I've never willingly used any of their products again. Biased? Yup, you bet. Short changing myself by eliminating potentially good products? Yup again. Do I care? Nope. The Mobil 1 that I've been using since the early 1980s has proven itself so capable and my engines have worn so slowly that the car itself will become toast long before any significant work on the engine mechanicals was/will be required.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blufz1

Curious as to the reason you prefer conventional oil vs. synthetic for your lawnmower?

shipo

"Curious as to the reason you prefer conventional oil vs. synthetic for your lawnmower?"

Same reason that I'll only use conventional oil in a conventional (i.e. air cooled boxer style spark ignition) limited use aircraft engine, rust. There are three main reasons why limited use engines with synthetic oil in the sump are more susceptable to rust than the same engine with conventional oil in the sump:

1) Given the superior flow properties of synthetic oils, they tend to flow off internal engine components and back into the sump given enough time, thus leaving said components exposed to the water that naturally condenses and collects inside of non "pickled" engines.
2) Given the superior stability of synthetic oils, varnish is far less likely to form, varnish that tends to coat inner surfaces that don't see lots of contact, areas such as cylinder walls below the lowest point where the oil control rings reach.
3) (Or maybe better said; 2b): Given the superior cleaning abilities of synthetic oils, any varnishes that do happen to form (or were formed by previous conventional oil usage) are likely to be washed away (gradually in the case of pre-existing varnish), thus exposing engine innards to potential rust formation.

While the above issues aren't talked much about in small engine circles (no surprise, toast your lawn mower and what's the worst that can happen? you have to spend a couple of hundred bucks to buy another), however, back in the 1980s Mobil marketed a product called Mobil AV-1. That oil was a fully synthetic oil tailored specifically for the aircooled boxer engines in the General Aviation fleet, and was supposed to be the greatest thing since the integration of the tricycle landing gear for pilots. Funny thing though, a few years and a few hundred operational hours after adoption of Mobil AV-1 into the fleet at large, and airplanes started dropping out of the sky. Literally.

All of the sudden the order of magnitude of the problem went through the ceiling. No longer was this a couple hundred dollar problem, it was tens of thousands of dollars and human lives that were impacted. Needless to say, it became a much talked about issue within aviation circles. To be fair, the rust or corrosion issues were only part of the problem (I don't mean to minimize the impact here), as many heavily used engines were experiencing problems with lead fouling of the rings and valves (unlike conventional oil, synthetic oil in incapable of holding lead in suspension). It's just that it was the occasional use engines that suffered the worst impact, internal corrosion AND lead fouling.

To this day, I continue to use conventional oil in my occasional use engines.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blufz1

Thanks,for the info. Just got back from pulling through my Honda mower a few times. Do you think pulling it through a few times once a week would oil the cylinder?

shipo

Yeah, that'll probably help as I think Honda engines are pressurized; however, many small engines don't have a pressurized oiling system and thus rely on splash oiling. If any given engine is a splasher, then "pulling it through" ain't gonna amount to much, and may even aid what little oil remains on the parts to drain into the sump, leaving the innards even more exposed. :-/

In the case of my engines, my garden tractor and my generator both have fully pressurized oiling systems, complete with oil filters. My lawn mower has a pressurized oiling system (I think) sans oil filter while my snow blower uses a dipper/splasher method for oiling. In each case, I simply fire them up once per month (during their respective off-seasons) and get'um good and hot.

Best Regards,
Shipo

blufz1

Thanks,again. I'll just fire my mower up on warm winter days every 1 or 2 weeks down here in Dallas and also check w/ the lawnmower shop.

tired_old_dave

Noack numbers. winter2 has posted here and has good luck with his crd. Yes, I used ow40 (per dcx but not the engine manufacturer vm motori) for over 18k miles and poured oil out of my cac hoses and scrubbed the tar out of them and on the intake butterfly. Old timers at lost kept using their rotella. Amsoil that winter2 used (15w40) and finally the redline 15w40(group v - believe no/little vi used) used on our last oil change are better.

mobil 1 double digit noack, amsoil lower/better, and redline poe with a 6. Turbo blow by even by domestic diesels until the return to 15w40. Maybe the new 5w40 diesel can keep the turbo from becoming an oil pump.

tired_old_dave

From western pa, never heard about oil pan sludge until moved to texas in the mid-70's. But I believe from another post at bitog? that there is no pa crude being refined. qs even moved years ago to houston. Can say that 40's and 50's oil pans were gunk up bad and you could buy metal cans of non-detergent bulk oil for use in "ringless"? oil burning cars. Asphaltines in diesel from mexican (gulf of mexico?) crude was and still may be a problem.

shipo

I'm not sure that I fully followed your post, however, your comment about double digit noack did stand out. Every thing that I've seen regarding Mobil 1 0W-40 has shown that it is more like 8.5 for its Noack rating. I have however seen some of the Mobil 1 EP Noack scores up in the double digit range.

FWIW, per the Mobil 1 web site, Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 is the correct oil for your CRD, not 0W-40.
http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Oils/Mobil_1_Turbo_Diesel_Truck_5W-- 40.aspx
http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENPVLMOMobil1_Turbo_Diesel_Truck_- 5W-40.asp

Best Regards,
Shipo

tired_old_dave

Gave up and bought another jug of 5w30 mobil 1 to use in the h3. $23 and change for 5qts. mobil 1 ~ 23.5/5qts ~ 4.70 qt/6k miles = 2.35/qt for two dino changes. and if mobil 1 5w30 has any pao then i think i am ahead.

Stopped by the hummer dealer to see if all 3.5 motors (bought an extra drain plug from a chevy dealer last year) were now using one with a magnet (yes). Talked to a very good mechanic. Saw an h3 getting its' 30k service, and goodwrench (mobil dino) going in. Goodwrench with 3k changes-but he did say that when customers don't bring it in at 3k some nasty stuff comes out. What's with these long oil changes and oil monitors.

Just one question - believe first sl or sm oil was so slimy that i could wipe and wipe couldn't get the slickness? off my fingers. New mobil 1 - one wipe on a paper towel and can feel the ridges on my finger tips.

tired_old_dave

5w40 new product, believe because of ulsd on the new '07 diesels. Hope those engines and turbos and oil are built for it. At least cummins uses haslett and not a garrett type turbo and think i read somewhere that the new honda turbo sounds like fixed blades on an axle and some form of "wastegate" device. The noacks were from crd ownership research from 02/05 until the final insult at 09/06. dcx required 0w40 mobil 1 while the engine manufacturer said 5w40 diesel oil for winter and 10w40 diesel oil for summer. Threw out my oil charts when the crd went away.

bill125

My wrx sti was had an under car accident and afterwards all the oil came out. So now theres no oil in the engine. please give me an idea on how much it will cost to repair this and is it worth it to keep the car.

altair4

So you are saying that the oil pan was cracked and the oil drained out. Call your Subie dealer on the oil pan replacement cost.

The real question is, did you shut down the engine immediately or kept running it? If so, the cost factor just took a huge leap upward.

celuna

:confuse: :confuse: :confuse:
I replaced a blown motor in my car about 2 months ago... and noticed the rear seal started leaking about 3 wks ago... I have a warranty on the motor for the next month... I had a personal friend install it for me and I know that it would cost me a fortune to get the motor pulled out and a new one reinstalled... The leak is very minor but enough to drip about 3-4 drops per 6 hrs or so... I was doing some research and came across several stop oil leak treatments... just wondering if it would work and if it's alright for a motor?

This is in a 95 geo prizm and the new motor has about 100k on it while the car has bout 145k on it... :confuse:

Mr_Shiftright

I doubt stop leak would work since the main seal is a "working" seal, not a stationary gasket. Stop leak could even make it worse, as it tends to swell seals and make them rubbery. If they get so swelled that they slip out of their grooves, then you have a double-bad leak. Most main seals don't leak very much when the car is running, so you won't lose much oil. It may make the car a bit messy underneath, that's about it.

chua-san

Does anyone here use vacuum pump to change oil for your car? If you do, which kind did you buy and where can I get one? Thanks

kiawah

You have to get underneath the car to change the oil filter, so not sure what that might save you.

shipo

When I got my first BMW I found that they conveniently put the oil filter cannister on the top of the engine, effectively allowing for a complete oil change from the top of the engine (assuming an oil extractor of course). I bought a Pela 650 (BMWs use nearly 7 quarts of oil so I needed a fairly large one), and it has now served me well for nearly eight years.

FWIW, even on cars that have the oil filter located underneath the engine, I still use the oil extractor for the oil in the pan, it's just that much easier to use.

As for availability, just query "Pela Oil Extractor" on your favorite search engine, you'll get lots of hits.

Best Regards,
Shipo

bendlight

I have a 2004 Subaru Forester and the owner's manual says I should change the oil every 7,500 miles, but the local Subaru dealerships say it should be changed every 3,750 miles because we are in Texas and it is hot and the owner's manual is written for the Northern states where it is supposedly cooler. As far as I can tell the manual doesn't say whether I should use synthetic oil or not so I assume it is conventional oil it is referring to. I'm not sure why the outside temperature matters when the engine runs at a specific temp regardless of whether it is 100 or 20 degrees outside, or so it appears on my temperature gauge. Are these dealerships just trying to hit me up for extra oil changes?

shipo

A few points:

- Engine temperature gauges in recent years have become nothing more than glorified idiot lights (much thanks to the ODB-II standards). Said another way, they show cold when the engine is cold, they show normal when the engine is anywhere in the operational range, and they show hot (usually when it's already too late) when the engine is overheating.

- Just because your engine (coolant) temperature gauge is within an acceptable operational range doesn't mean your oil is. Up here in New England, the odds are pretty good that the oil in the pan of our cars stabilizes somewhere around 150 degrees on a sub-zero day while down there in Texas, the chances are high that the oil in many of y'alls cars and trucks stabilizes somewhere over 200 degrees.

- If your Owner's Manual doesn't specify synthetic oil then all recommendations are for conventional oil. Were I in your shoes I'd move to synthetic oil and enjoy the 7,500 mile OCIs that your car is supposed to have. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

blufz1

I'm in Texas. Shipo is right. Plus I top up my oil to the full mark after I get it back from the dealer,keep my coolant reservoir to slightly over the top mark,keep my trans fluid to the top mark. Change coolant and ATF 3yrs or 30k. My thinking is if I just reduce temps 5 degrees I have added longevity to my drive train. I use Mobil 1. I think the synthetics tend to run cooler.

jeffyscott

because we are in Texas and it is hot and the owner's manual is written for the Northern states

...and of course were the dealer here (WI) he'd say 3750 mi, because it's cold in winter.

The manuals usually have two schedules and should say under what conditions you should follow the shorter OCI. Some are more clear than others in specifying those conditions...but, the interpretation of this only really matters much, if you are under warranty.

bremertong

The oil in the engine may be as much as a year old although
the dealership and Cadillac confirm the car is new. The question is should I change the oil on the basis of time in the car. The oil life monitor says 87% oil life left as of today. The odometer now has about 400 miles on it. I am told that the Cadillac oil monitoring system is very dependable and can be relied on. Any knowledge on this issue or direct experience will be appreciated.

charlieman

A few days ago I was driving and heard a loud 'clang' in the engine. I immediately lost power and the engine shut down. Smoke came from under the hood so I thought it overheated. But when the smoke was gone and I checked the radiator, it was full of water. Checked my engine oil and it was low, just under the last marker. I put some oil in it and started the engine and it sounds like a tractor. One mechanic told me that the crankshaft and the bearings may have gone bad. Another mechanic told me that it is possible that it is just the tension on the timing chain or something like that which may need replacing. Can I get some views on this as I really don't wanna have to buy a new engine but if thats what I gotta do, thats what I gotta do.
Thanks

Mr_Shiftright

Well any of those things are possible. I wouldn't go yanking the engine out without some further diagnosis.

First of all, you can do a cylinder leakdown test. This should spot any serious cylinder head or ring damage.

If the oil pump gave up, then yes...once you lose oil pressure generally your crankshaft and bearings are toast.

A bad tensioner should be easily diagnosable because the noise will be all in the front of the engine, in the timing case cover. A bad crankshaft is a very deep loud noise...it's not a clatter...it's the hammers of hell. A KNOCK, not a tap.

If you engine is maintaining oil pressure, and the cylinder leakdown test shows everything tight inside, you might very well have just thrown a chain tensioner or chain guide or belt guide...I don't know what makes Suzukis go 'round and round....

kiawah

Do you know how to play taps?

Need an engine mechanic to look at it, and there are a couple basic checks he can do to see if all the pistons are still moving....how much compression you have in each cylinder.....etc. Sounds very serious though.

How many miles are on this engine?

You'll have to figure if this is worth fixing, putting a new engine in, getting a rebuilt if available, getting one from a junkyard rearend total, or rebuilding your original.

Good luck

wtd44

Take a look at this site:

http://www.mityvac.com/pages/products_fee.asp

Years ago, I bought a model 7400 fluid evacuator. I ordered mine through a J.C. Whitney catalog. I have gotten a lot of good use from this vacuum pump system. You might also find a cheaper type pump at:

http://www.harborfreight.com/

chetj

dont worry about it..it has mobil one in it

tired_old_dave

Never switched from mobil 1 5w30 to B&S 30wt lawn mower motor but did add some Redline Complete Fuel System Cleaner. It runs great. One oil and one fuel cleaner, for now, for all the motors.

rhiebert

Contaminants ranging between 2 and 22 microns pose the greatest threat to engine wear. The diameter of a human hair is between 50 & 70 microns.

Mr_Shiftright

Thanks--that's about what I figured. I think I said "under 40 microns" but it's good to have the exact number. That's certainly smaller than these legendary "metal shavings"!!

0patience

Most high pressure hydraulic systems run 5 micron filters.
The average automotive oil filter is around 20 microns.
Most heavy truck engines run about 5-20 micron filters.

Another thing that causes more damage than metal shavings is cavitation. People don't realize how damaging air or coolant in the oil system is.

tired_old_dave

Enlightenment sometimes comes almost too late when one is brand loyal (especially after decades of use). Can't wait to drain the lawnmower - thanks bitog and I should have trusted my ears and gut feeling. Good bye mobil.

blufz1

No offense but what are you talking about?

shipo

So, what misinformation did you pick up on BITOG?

tired_old_dave

no misinformation. 5w30 could be a great detergent. Didn't realize how noisy our '04 3.5v6 malibu had gotten. When new i have been guilty of restarting a running engine. bottom end and top end noise. as of this week-end, save the lawnmower, mobil 5w30 is gone. bu runs great and b_h loves the h3 now. 0w40 in the crd produced liquid blowby and tar in the cac tubes. tx is hot and we use our garage(heatsink), used to dump the heater core before opening the garage door, but that darn auto climate control on the bu makes one use the stupid button to raise a temp request. b_h kept telling me the bu was getting noisey, no more.

i hope i haven't said, actually(actually is - the plupresent tense of the verb is) or absolutely (yes).

shipo

English please, I don't have a clue as to what you are talking about.

tired_old_dave

will this title cause a google hit? shipo, it seems my reputation precedes me at edmunds (and lost?), i have been referred as the "brain trust"(intent by that poster understood and ignored) at edmunds when i clipped b_h's h3 antenna to clear the garage. I just want to thank bitog for a nudge without having to join. joined edmunds and lost(because of the crd). check digg and bookmarked radical places like alternet. just saying for me - a different oil is my cup of tea - the same brand that was in the crd when it was traded in for b_h's h3.

shipo

Brain trust? Uhhh...

blufz1

Take it slow,man. Let's just start with the lawnmower.