Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

imidazol97

>single grades are built for one purpose, cheapness,

I don't believe that's true.

However that single weight oil should be used for your lawn mower and other small motors that are air cooled. It will protect them better than multigrades will do.

kkollwitz

I'll use it in the mower.

imidazol97

Unless you've got a riding mower that will take a while to use up-donate a quart to your neighbor, e.g. I actually have no problem with using a part of a quart in with my multigrade oil in the summer--especially if it's a name brand 30 weight with the proper SJ or whatever rating on the label.

wtd44

I have used up "odd" weight oils by topping off oil changes, replacing "burned" oil, etc. Don't use much and you do not appreciably alter the weight range of the normal oil in the engine. If you get esoteric, and check out precision weight ratings on oils, you'll see it varies more than you might think from brand to brand and batch to batch.

highroller

My 06 nissan titan has currently 12800 miles with no oil consumption during previous Mobil1 TSUV 5w-30 uses. I've had about 6 oil changes so far and observed no oil consumptions. Just recently changed to GC green 0w-30 about 1200 miles ago. Checked dipstick today and noticed just a slight below original level on the dipstick. In my opinion it has consumed about 1/5 of a quart. No oil leaks. So is it normal to have this consumption after switching to a new synthetic product? Before checking the dipstick, a few days before, i turned on the A/C while driving about 80 mph for about 30 minutes and reved up to about 4k rpm about once. I dont know whether to contribute the consumption to the driving or to the switching of brands, viscocity, etc. Any ideas or comments would be appreciated.

Mr_Shiftright

You can't really be accurate about oil consumption without doing it more precisely; that is, fill up right to the mark, then check it one week later, 1/2 hour after shutting if down, in the same parking spot, and then once a week or so over the course of a month.

If indeed your oil consumption would be 3/5 of a quart over 3,600 miles, that isn't even worth worrying about.

winter2

For lawnmower engines that are air cooled, certain manufacturers such as Briggs & Stratton encourage the use of multi-viscosity straight synthetic oil in their engines after about eight hours of break-in. I have been using Castrol Syntec 10W-30 in my lawnmower for the past three years and it runs so much better than when I used straight mineral 30 weight. Go to their website and see.

imidazol97

It sounds like you're comparing straight 30W with 10W-30. The motors run better with 10W-30 as far as the sound on initial start but in reality the higher weight of the 30W is better for the motor unless you are in a climate that doesn't get hot so that the air flow is always adequate to keep the motor temperature below a nominal level.

The manual for my Toro didn't mention needing to use or recommending to use synthetic. I'll see what I can look up.

imidazol97

Type of oil to use:
use a high quality detergent oil classified "For Service SF, SG, SHSJ" or higher, such as Briggs & Stratton SAE 30, Part Number 100005....

However they show a chart with temps below 40 deg. F. suggesting 10W-30 and 5W-30; above 40 deg. F., 30.

There is a box saying SJ/CF synthetic oil is an acceptable at all temperatures and shows 10W-30 and 5W-30. It does not say preferred neither does it say suggested for synthetic. It does say acceptable at any temperature.

This was the first BS motor manual I could come up with. I can give the URL if you need. If you like synthetic have at it. But they're not saying it's preferred.
http://shop.briggsandstratton.com/BShopProductPage.asp?CatalogID=56B2B9AF-283C-1- 1D4-8886-00B0D0203414&MECID=100&SessionID=9F2DA7EB-3494-42B5-A871-296DD16086C3&C- ategoryID=&lrid=&ProductID=86A671AC-176E-4669-845A-642F2689A011#

micweb

I think maybe lawnmower engines use 30W oil since grass only grows when its warmer, so you aren't likely to fire up the lawnmower then a multiweight oil would help; and the engines are so tiny they quickly reach operating temperature, so using multiweight oil probably doesn't add much to cold-start oil flow. But I'm just guessing.

imidazol97

I went to the BriggsStratton website and it did not encourage synthetic. I allowed it but reminded that the oil change intervals are NOT extended. Sometimes me thinks the synthetic fad has benefited from too much advertising efficacy.

The site did note that below 40 deg F the use of 30W was possibly able to cause more wear in cylinder. But how many of us mow our grass under 50 and 60 degrees. I may use 5W30 in early and late mowing. But the straight weight does not break down viscosity-wise at higher than normal wall temps due to less cooling on air air-cooled motor like 10W-30, will due to the viscosity change molecules. In your auto the motor is water-cooled and the walls don't go above a certain temp, higher than 225 but the temperature increase is limited by the water cooling, else the water starts boiling.

In an air-cooled motor the wall temperature can increase drastically on a 100 deg day when you're mowing that 7 inch grass from the rains last week. So the solid molecular structure of the 30W is preferred for the durability it has.

gonogo

I now mulch my leaves and the temp in the fall can be consistently in the morning be below 40 F. So I now use Super Tech high mileage 10W-30, uses very little in hot weather mowing.

imidazol97

> uses very little in hot weather mowing.

It's not how much oil is used. It's whether the oil keeps a high enough viscosity to protect the walls and the rings.

gonogo

"It's not how much oil is used. It's whether the oil keeps a high enough viscosity to protect the walls and the rings."

On a mower who cares, they are of little value. My last one went 18 yrs, too long.

altair4

My lawn tractor would cost $4,000 to replace. The engine alone has a replacement cost of around $900.

gonogo

I run a self propelled, cost $200 in 2000. When I can't walk anymore then I will buy a rider. BTW had to replace the transmission pinion bearing already this year, cost me $7. I guess they don't make them like they use to.

altair4

Got the tractor because I didn't want to spend 3 hours a week with the self-propelled any longer when life got busy. Takes awhile to mow my lawn...but not nearly as long as it used to!

growwise

6 oil changes in 11,600 miles? :surprise: :confuse: :sick:

highroller

hehehehehe..... yeuppz

you must think it's overkill to do that many huh?
well... i'd certainly would like to think that i've gotten rid of about 90% of all the 'metal shavings' off of a brand new engine. Peace of mind you might say..

Mr_Shiftright

There really aren't "metal shavings" of course...that's kind of a hyperbolic description of what might be at best barely visible and occasional bits of debris under 40 microns or so, if any at all....if an engine's oil had real metal shavings in it that you could pick up with your fingernails, there would be something terribly wrong with it.

One always hope to pick up the occasional piece of grit that might be left over from the assembly process but the oil filter should catch that right from the get-go on the first few hundred miles.

gonogo

Hey, if you have the disposable income and you feel better for it why not, other than more waste oil that the world does not need.

imidazol97

Actually, if you recycle your oil, it goes to either recycling into petroleum products, thermal power for the refinery recycling, or heating for business or government facilities with specially designed heaters.

It was just discussed in our newspaper this morning.

yurakm

on lighter note, a story popular with immigrants from Russia:

A recent immigrant brings his car for oil change. He repeats it the next day, and the following day again. The service adviser asks, why he does it?

- Well, I work across a street from your station. I just got a job. I work hard on the new job. My English is bad. I can leave my car at your service station in the morning and to pick it up after work. The only parking I know nearby is more expensive than changing my oil. I had no time to look for a inexpensive parking.

krzyss

and very practical

Krzys

gonogo

I know about the waste oil burners, you would be surprised how much pollution they put into the air. I send my oil to a business that burns the oil. I also at one time maintained 2 such burners, they burn dirty, brown soot.

shipo

Do you suppose Mobil 1 and other fully synthetic oils of that ilk burn cleaner? ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

P.S.
I am joking by the way.

Mr_Shiftright

Apropos of that, there was "buzz" on the internet about not using synthetics in rotary engines because it left some kind of particular residue that rotaries didn't like. This came from Mazdatrix.com, who should know, as they are premier rotary engine builders.

Are synthetics known to be higher detergents?

shipo

"Are synthetics known to be higher detergents?"

To that question at least, I can offer an answer. Yes! As true synthetic oils are more stable by their very nature (i.e. their viscosity isn't as temperature sensitive*), the manufacturer can add more detergents per unit of oil and still leave LOTS of extra room in the formulation to hold engine contaminants in suspension.

* Apparently Mobil now has a version of Mobil 1 that is effectively a "straight weight" 40 weight oil (i.e. an oil with zero viscosity enhancers) that exhibits 0 weight cold pour properties. Said another way, that particular oil can be called both S.A.E. 40 and 0W-40 with equal correctness.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

Ah okay. Apparently it is that detergent action that allegedly has a detrimental effect on apex seals on rotaries.

growwise

Perhaps a tad bit. But here's my take on this whole oil change issue. Most people are now diligent about oil changes even if they havent adopted synthetic due to cost issue. The problem is that a great number of same people are not aware of other fluid changes like
1. Transmission fluid.
2. Brake Fluid.
3. Power steering fluid.
4. Coolant etc
Hence the engine is outlasting everything else and people trade in their cars (with pristine synthetic maintained engines) the moment their transmissions start slipping (dark burnt fluid - tranny toast) :sick: etc.. you get the idea.

smokey75

I know this is slightly off topic but since you brought it up... what is everyone's opinion of when to change brake fluid & power steering fluid since these often aren't listed in the manual's maintenance intervals.

shipo

I've heard the same thing. If I'm not mistaken, the rotary engine is by its very nature more akin to a 2-Stroke motor than anything else, and I'm unaware of ANY fully Synthetic oil claiming applicability to that type of engine.

A bit of trivia:
My family moved to the Detroit suburb of Bloomfield Hills in 1969 and as such I attended my last six years of school and rubbed shoulders with LOTS of kids who's parents were engineers for the "Autos" (as they were collectively known), not to mention the kids of more than a few sports luminaries (the children of Al Kaline and Gordie Howe to name two, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, "Name Dropper!"). A guy I knew (I won't call him a friend, long story) whose father was an engineer with GM was working on their Wankel engines (specifically the 4-Rotor unit earmarked for mid-engined Corvette prototype). As the story goes, GM had a heck of a time developing an Apex Seal that would last the life of the car. Eventually they happened upon a formulation for the seal that was estimated to be good for at least a million miles; the only problem was that the twelve seals that would be required for the 4-Rotor engine would have cost more than the entire rest of the car.

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

Power Steering fluid: Never.
Brake fluid: 24 months.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

Yep, the engine that Herr Wankel sold to Mazda and GM was a piece of junk....he may have invented it, but really it was Mazda that made it a viable engine.

smokey75

Why do you say never for power steering fluid? Just curious... I'm not disputing it. Mine does smell pretty burnt & is pretty dark.

shipo

IIRC you asked for "Opinions". My "Opinion" is based upon my own empirical evidence that covers the following two areas:
1) I've never seen a recommendation to replace the PS fluid from any manufacturer (although admittedly I haven't looked real hard to find such recommendations either)
2) Over the years I've wrenched on hundreds of cars and have yet to see one that has had a P.S. failure that was old fluid related. Does that mean that this type of failure isn't possible? Nope.

The flip side of the above is that if your fluid is indeed "burnt" smelling, it might could well be worth a change.

I hope this helps. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2

I don't think that the PS pump shears the oil down to any great extent. That said, many members of an E36 list I frequent-in particular the track rats and club racers-use a turkey baster to empty the the PS reservoir at every oil change. They then replace the old fluid with Mobil 1 ATF. Does that procedure extend the life of the PS components? Beats me. It sure can't hurt.

highroller

Yes, i do of course, recycle my oil, so you can't say im wasting oil. :P

There aren't really 'metals' in the oil from a new engine, of course, more like debris or very minute particles as Shiftright said, im just using the coined phrase of 'metal shavings' to describe any grits/debris/minute particles or what not...

Mr_Shiftright

yeah, I knew that's what you meant but I just mentioned it so that folks who hadn't any experience with motors might not get the wrong impression--that there were these chunks of metal floating around in new engines.

POWER STEERING--it's always been my understanding that the reason to change PS fluid was not because the oil broke down, but just to eliminate dirt particles that might foul up the valving in the hydraulic ram.

gonogo

I change power steering every 3 years, it gets black so it picks up hose rubber and I imagine pump and rack wear. Brake fluid every 3 yrs, gotta get the water out.

wtd44

I suppose few people change power steering fluid on a regular basis, but I'd hesitate to say that's a good idea. Several years back a family member developed a creaking and popping condition in a 1996 Chrysler Concorde power steering unit that came on at cold start, and improved as the unit heated up, and would finally go away. Looking into this, I discovered the problem was well known in these cars, and the recommended cure was replacement of the power steering unit at some $500. On the recommendation of a friend at NAPA, I vastly improved the steering unit by changing the fluid over to the appropriate NAPA product (Mac's 9832), and mixing in an additive (Lube Gard Power Steering Fluid Protectant) that brought the fluid up to Honda specifications.
My point? If there is one, it is that p.s. fluid does deteriorate. I suggest that what; maybe every 50K miles would be a good interval? Anyway, never say never about changing power steering fluid.
By the way, I did the change by dilution: I pumped the reservoir fluid out and replaced it with the new, which then mixed with the system fluid. Again, I repeated the procedure of dilution about two years later and the power steering unit got even better. I may need to do it again, due to the sounds reappearing in cold weather now.

highroller

I'd change it out every 45k miles or every 3yrs.

yurakm

... empty the the PS reservoir at every oil change. They then replace the old fluid with Mobil 1 ATF.

Does the Mobil 1 ATF make good power steering fluid? Will it serve as long as a usual PS fluid - way longer than "every oil change"?

wtd44

I am advised by a friend at NAPA that there are a lot of different specs out there for the many makes of vehicles, and that it is VERY risky to assume one power steering fluid fits all. To assure the best predictable results, use what the manufacturer specifies for your vehicle.

altair4

I'll second that, especially if you drive European...

Even Honda makes a lot of noise in their owner's manual about using Honda-spec'd fluids.

div2

I am advised by a friend at NAPA that there are a lot of different specs out there for the many makes of vehicles, and that it is VERY risky to assume one power steering fluid fits all.

You are absoltely correct. The only reason I mentioned M1 ATF is because the E36 Bimmers use ATF. My 1999 Wrangler only gets Mopar PS fluid.

wtd44

There are some interchanges that are not apparent in most manuals, but real caution is advisable, I agree.

carjim

Anybody got an opinion on the following two brands of dino oil?
My Infiniti dealer was using Castrol across the board to service all customer vehicles. They abruptly changed to Mobil. This is not synthetic, remember. Would you be concerned?

Change intervals are 3750 miles according to the manual.

Mr_Shiftright

With oil changes that frequent you could hardly go wrong with any major oil brand you choose.

gonogo

No problem, Mobil is a name brand oil, looks like they got a better deal from Mobil.
It reminds of Coke and Pepsi, restaurants switch when they get a better deal.
Last I knew GM Goodwrench oil is Mobil.