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Time will tell. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
A couple of thoughts:
1) At what OCI? 10,000 miles or greater? No chance.
2) Are you advocating that if a persons' car specifies a particular oil specification that can only be met with an advanced Full Synthetic, that they instead use a fake synthetic?
3) Your argument might be valid if you decide to stick with ridiculous 3,000 mile oil changes. Bump that to the 10K, 15K, or even 18K OCIs that many cars with oil monitors now recommend, and you'll end up with a sludged up and worn out engine after only 50K miles.
4) When dealing with turbocharged engines like the ones found in VWs, Audis, Saabs, and soon to be BMWs (not to mention the raft of turbocharged diesel offerings that will be hitting a showroom near you over the next couple of years), better oil really is better. Like it or don't, turbochargers are hard on oil, and cheap fake synthetics are hard on turbocharger bearings. Use the fake stuff and deal with the consequences.
5) You make a case that unless an engine is sufficiently advanced, it cannot "utilize" a better lubricant. To say the very least, that simply doesn't make sense. The longer an oil can maintain its lubricative properties and shear resistance, the better it is for your engine, regardless of whether we're talking about a Chevy Cobalt or a dual turbocharged 300+ HP 3.0 liter I6 engine from BMW.
You've made the decision that cheap oil is "good enough", and therefore anything better than that is a waste of money. If you're going to stick with the short OCI, then cheap oil might allow your engine to last long enough for you, but I wouldn't bet the ranch on that.
In my case, I'd much rather use a better oil and extend my oil changes to 10,000 or even 12,000 miles. I find that to be a far better use of my time and money. Many folks feel that by doing so I'm putting my engine at risk, however, my bet is that anybody who feels that way has never even once looked at oil analysis results from a car run in such a manner. I have, and every indication is that my oil will last about twice as long as I'm actually using it.
"If that's the case," you ask, "then why don't I extend my OCIs until somewhere north of 20,000 miles?" Simple, because my current car doesn't have an oil monitor and as opposed to then starting oil anaylsis (which ain't cheap) it is simply more cost effective after 10,000 mile to just replace the oil.
FWIW, I kept my current daily driver on diet of Mobil 1 with a 7,500 OCI while under the warranty period, and after that I extended the OCI to the aforementioned 10K to 12K. At this point I have just over 109K miles on it, and it is using about a full quart of oil in 8,000 miles, just about what it was when the car was new. And when I pull the oil out after it's done its job, it is still clear, albeit somewhat darker than when it went in.
Best Regards,
Shipo
My last two cars came "Pre broken in" and with a factory fill of full Synthetic. No dino juice for those two rides. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
I have done UOA's on all 3 of my vehicles and the results are excellent using Havoline dino and PureOne filters for at least 6K miles and 6 months. Today's dinos are so good there are few situations where a person would actually NEED to use syn and they are:
1) If you live in an area with extreme tempuratures; temps below 0 or above 100 for extended periods of time.
2) If your looking for extended OCI's of 10K or more.
3) If you have extreme driving habits; you have a high performance vehicle that you run very hard or a utility vehicle that hauls a lot of weight or tows on a regular basis.
4) you have a turbo charged engine.
If none of these falls into your catagory, you can use dino and more than likely your engine will outlast the rest of the vehicle. My recommendation is to do a UOA for each of your vehicles. This will tell you just how long your oil is good for, and it's probably going to tell you folks that have been dumping your oil every 3K (even if your using the cheapest store brand stuff) that you've been dumping perfectly good oil. Unless none of these conditions fits you, it really makes little sense to spend 3 times as much moola on syn.
5) If the manufacturer of your vehicle specified Full Synthetic in the Owner's Manual.
BTW, in spite of fact that you titled your post "I'm not buying the claim", it seems that you actually do buy it (in a figurative sense). I'm not aware of anybody ever claiming that (outside of the five key points) by using synthetic oil and a short OCI your engine life will be improved. The whole point of Synthetics is to extend the OCI and still provide your engine with superior lubrication, internal cleaning, good flow properties in extreme cold and good heat resistance in extreme heat.
Question: Why don't you start using a full Synthetic and extend your OCI's to 12,000 to 15,000 miles? Wouldn't a move like that be nominally cheaper cost wise and a lot cheaper time wise?
Best Regards,
Shipo
"...but I'm one of those who doesn't care for running jet black oil in my engine, regardless of how long it's good for."
Jet black oil does not in any way mean that your oil isn't lubricating properly. Having said that, once you've given the vastly superior cleaning properties of a Full Synthetic enough time to clean out the crap left behind by dino juice (even with 3K OCIs), you'll find that a full synthetic coupled with a good filter (I use either Mobil-1 or Bosch filters), even after 12,000 miles your oil won't be jet black. I just changed the oil out of my current ride after nearly 11,000 miles, and it was still translucent (albeit darker than when it went in).
"And how is it less expensive to use full syn and change it every 10K or 12K as opposed to running dino and changing it every 6K?"
While I don't actually know how much it costs to have your oil changed (I do my own), as a general rule it is my understanding that an oil change using a full Synthetic is only about 75% more expensive than with Dino Juice. Assuming that's even close, then one 12,000 mile oil change with Synthetic is less expensive than two 6,000 mile oil changes with dino juice. Then there is the whole time issue. I don't know about you, however, what little spare time I have is quite valuable, and as such, the fewer maintenance events I need to deal with the better.
"What I don't buy into is the blanket statement of saying any given engine will last longer using syn than dino."
Hmmm, well all of the science that I've read indicates that an engine run on synthetic will in fact last longer. Consider the following two points (there are many others, however, these two are pretty important):
1) As a rule, upon a cold start, an engine with Synthetic in the oil pan will have the oil pressure come up quicker and be fully lubricated sooner due to the superior flow properties of Synthetic oil at any given weight. Note, if your ambient temperature is always above "Standard" (i.e. 59 degrees), this particular difference is basically irrelevant.
2) Synthetic oil is far more stable than dino juice, and as such, it is far less likely to foam. Foam in your oil galleries simply means that where there should be oil, there is nothing but air, never a good thing that.
Best Regards,
Shipo
2-6K dino oil changes coat me $15.44, I didn't know synthetic was that cheap.
"While I don't actually know how much it costs to have your oil changed (I do my own), as a general rule it is my understanding that an oil change using a full Synthetic is only about 75% more expensive than with Dino Juice. Assuming that's even close, then one 12,000 mile oil change with Synthetic is less expensive than two 6,000 mile oil changes with dino juice."
The implication being that when one pays to have his or her oil changed, the per change cost is only about 75% more when Synthetic oil is used (the cost of labor after all is still the cost of labor).
Based upon your post I'm guessing that you do your own and that to be able to perform a complete oil and filter change for $7.72 ("2-6K dino oil changes coat [sic] me $15.44"), you are using really cheap oil and inferior oil filters. If that is so, then I won't even go there.
Best Regards,
Shipo
While running syn for 10K-12K compared to running dino for 6K comes out to roughly the same amount of money (the cost is slightly lower for the dino if you're changing your syn at 10K), by changing my dino every 6K the oil, and consequently, the inside the engine ends up staying much cleaner. I've seen many a dumped syn oil with 10K or more miles on it and they were all jet black. There's no way I'm running that stuff in my engine. I'll spend the extra 30 minutes of my time for the extra change to have much cleaner oil. BTW, I always change my own oil, and I also don't use cheap filters. I use PureOne filters which are better than Bosch filters and almost as good as Mobil 1 filters at half the price.
Regarding doubling one's cost, I just totaled up what an "Apples to Apples" DIY oil change would be on my car with a high quality Dino oil versus a high quality Synthetic. Consider the following:
Conventional oil:
5 quarts Castrol GTX 5W-30 $12.95
1 Bosch Oil filter $5.99
Total: $18.94
Synthetic oil:
5 quarts Castrol Syntech 0W-30 $25.95
1 Bosch Oil filter $5.99
Total: $31.94
Cost per 1,000 miles:
Conventional oil @ 3,000 mile OCI: $6.31
Conventional oil @ 6,000 mile OCI: $3.16
Full Synthetic @ 10,000 mile OCI: $3.20
Full Synthetic @ 12,000 mile OCI: $2.66
Using your criteria, my Synthetic oil is still clean and translucent after 10,000, that means that I'd be wasting money by changing it sooner. Given the above, how is it that I'm spending twice as much money (for much more than a 5% gain in quality and protection I might add)?
Best Regards,
Shipo
I've seen data supporting this off and on for years, unfortunately, as I've always considered it common knowledge, I've not bothered saving any references. I'll post them when I come across them next time around.
"While running syn for 10K-12K compared to running dino for 6K comes out to roughly the same amount of money (the cost is slightly lower for the dino if you're changing your syn at 10K), by changing my dino every 6K the oil, and consequently, the inside the engine ends up staying much cleaner."
Assuming a high quality full Synthetic like Mobil-1, German made Castrol Syntec or Amsoil, there is no chance of the inside of an engine that was lubricated with conventional oil being as clean as an engine lubricated with synthetics, even with OCIs greater than 10K miles.
FWIW, I too have seen synthetic oil come out of cars jet black, and in as little as 5,000 miles. That having been said, in every case, the oil was drained from engines that had first been run many many miles on conventional oil and the synthetic was busy cleaning up the mess left behind by the cheap oil. Once cleaned up (which can take a number of oil changes), the oil in the engine will stay "clean" and clear well beyond 10,000 miles.
As evidence of the above, please check out the "Cavavan Stuff" folder in my Yahoo! photo album http://photos.yahoo.com/shipo (hint, click the "Download" button to view the picture in full resolution). In there you will find a detail shot through the oil filler hole of our 1998 Dodge Caravan. That shot was taken just beyond the 104,000 mile mark with just over 4,000 miles already on the oil. As you can see, not only is the oil that is pooled in the rocker arm still "clean and clear", the rocker arm shaft is as clean as the day it came from the factory. FWIW, this engine has been run on Mobil-1 since about the 20,000 mile mark, and has had only six oil changes since that point. What that means is that I've been operating that van with an average OCI of about 11,500.
Thinking about this another way, if what all of the Synthetic oil naysayers have said over the years is true, not only would my engine be full of crud, varnish and sludge, it would probably be burning huge quantities of oil and be ready for the scrap heap. Instead, as evidence by the referenced photograph, the inside of the engine is as clean as the day it was built, and it is still using about a quart of oil in 8,000 miles, just like when it was new.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Earlier today you said, "I've seen many a dumped syn oil with 10K or more miles on it and they were all jet black...", however, in your most recent post you said, "In every case where I've seen jet black syn..."
Then you didn't look at the pictures that I referenced.
"I've had the valve cover off and this engine is absolutely spotless, and it's never seen a drop of syn."
Spotless? As in no varnish or anything? Sorry, not buying. Conventional oil simply isn't stable enough for that to happen. Conventional oil starts generating varnish and other deposits the instant the brand new engine with a non-Synthetic fill is started for the first time. True, the detergent package in conventional oil will help mitigate that to a certain extent, however, unless you stay with stone age 3,000 mile oil changes (which would equate to every 5 weeks or so for me), there should be noticeable varnish deposits on surface areas where there is no contact.
Regarding the pictures that I referenced earlier, you will notice that even the rocker shaft and face of the rocker arm has not even a trace of varnish or anything else except a coating of nice clean oil.
"Why should I fix something that isn't broke?"
Being required to change my oil every 5 weeks? Sounds broke to me. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Shipo, i understand some vehicles come pre-filled with synthetics. Im no engineer or scientist but do you think that using dino in the early stages of a car can enhance the break-in process more effectively? Im not just going with "well some vehicles come pre-filled with synthetics" theory, im into the logic and concept of using dino for the wear-in process to better seat the cylinders and so forth. There are numerous articles and information on why some people should use dino instead of synthetics in the early stages of a vehicle's life. But if you know of some information where you can share with us why synthetics can just be as effective as using dino or if not better for the wear-in process, i'd appreciate it.
- On one side of the discussion was the old guard who maintained that a non-detergent straight weight break in oil was the only way to properly break in a new or newly rebuilt engine.
- On the other side was a group of folks who have spent millions of dollars on modern equipment to scientifically analyze virtually every engine related event that occurs from the moment it is certified to fly, all of the way through the next rebuild event a couple of thousand hours later.
When the folks with the science first proposed that non-detergent break-in oil was effectively useless at shortening the break-in period, the old guard raised hell. When pressed for "Why?", their response was always along the lines of, "The guy that I learned from has been doing this for sixty years and he's seen it all come and go so he should know. He recommends non-detergent oil." There were many variations on that theme; however, not one person on the non-detergent side of the house produced a single shred of evidence supporting their argument.
Needless to say, those with the science to back up what they were saying didn't even remotely have a chance of changing a single mind. As such, both camps still exist, and both are just as convinced that their methods are the ONLY way to get the job done.
Step over to the automotive side of the house and things are just as divisive. The non-Synthetic camp claiming that there is no benefit to Synthetics, and the Synthetic side not being able to understand how they could think that. Y'all obviously know which camp I'm in.
Specific to the discussion about breaking engines in with synthetic oil, I really don't know. I've had two cars that were delivered with Full Synthetic in the oil pan, no problems to report. In addition, I regularly communicate with literally hundreds of other folks who have similar cars, and have done so for the last eight years. So far at least, not a single person has raised his or her hand claiming engine problems that would suggest an improper break-in. With that in mind, I've heard and read plenty to suggest that the question isn't quite so simple as, "Is it okay for a new car to have Synthetic oil in the engine when the car is fresh new from the showroom?"
Why not so simple? Here's what I've heard, y'all can judge for yourselves:
1) I've heard that with the new cylinder wall coatings being used (silicone and exotic metallurgy and such) in combination with new ring material and design, there is no such a thing as "Break-in" any longer.
2) I've heard that engines "Broken-in" on Synthetic oils take a little longer to complete the process, but in the long run, the engines are better off for it, and as such will last even longer.
3) I've heard that some companies (BMW in this case) perform a computer controlled "Bench run" of each new engine for some number of hours, effectively completing the break-in process while the engine is still in the factory.
Thinking back on it, I think I've heard a few other explanations that I can no longer remember as well. Are any of them the full truth of the matter? I have no idea.
What I do know is that by using a modern Fully Synthetic oil in a relatively recent engine, said engine will require far fewer oil changes, and will last longer, use less fuel and accumulate fewer internal deposits than that same engine would on a strict Conventional oil diet. Or so says the science that I've seen over the years. That, and my own scientifically irrelevant anecdotal contributions to this argument lead me to conclude that operating a car with extended OCIs and Synthetic oil is the only way to go.
Best Regards,
Shipo
I use the Pela 650 and it's great. ;-)
HOWEVER, both dino and synthetic oils get dirty. Just as fast. (How does the dirt know which oil it is landing in?) Extended OCI do not take this into account.
I never said that Synthetic oil doesn't get dirty. That having been said, there are a few other things working in the favor of synthetics that many folks miss.
- Synthetics, due to their molecular structure are more capable of holding said dirt in suspension with no loss of their lubricity.
- As a compliment to the above point, due to the extra ability to hold contaminants in suspension, coupled with the higher levels of detergency in synthetic oils (detergents also chemically latch onto contaminants), a higher percentage of the dirt/crud/sludge/acid inside of an engine is carried out with the oil at oil change time. Said another way, said junk doesn't wind up on the inner surfaces of the engine.
- Assuming that the oil is properly filtered, then the really nasty bits are removed from the oil and reside in the filter, and the oil can continue doing its job. Remember, the dirtier a filter gets, the better the job it does at filtering (right up to the point where the bypass opens). Why? Because as the larger holes in the filter are gradually and progressively clogged, it becomes capable of trapping ever finer bits of contaminants.
- Last but certainly not least, modern engines produce the barest of fractions of the amount of contaminants as compared to engines from just a decade ago. Look further back and you'll see the trend continuing for a couple of decades before that.
So, combine oils that are capable of holding many times the amount of contaminants (i.e. Synthetic vs. Conventional) than they could just a few years ago, with long life filters, with engines that simply don't produce all that many contaminants, and you get extended OCIs.
Best Regards,
Shipo
The flip side is that I've seen plenty of evidence to suggest the contrary. You my friend aren't the only one who's spent years studying this stuff.
That having been said, while I do strive to poke holes in arguments as both a way of teaching AND learning (for myself and any interested parties), I do attempt to do so in a respectful manner. If I've inadvertently offended you in any way in the heat of our discussions, please, accept my most humble apology. I am truly sorry, calling you, or anyone else names and such are not, and have never been my method of operation (errr, short of Trolls that is, all bets are off with them).
As for the accusations that you've leveled in my direction, I'll just let them pass on by. They are untrue and unfounded, and as such are effectively irrelevant.
Now, back to the discussion at hand. Could you please point me to some scientific documentation that supports your assertion that oil that has effectively turned black equates to oil that cannot protect your engine and/or cannot keep its innards clean.
FWIW, I'll be hitting 110,000 miles on the engine in the pictures that I referenced a few posts back (and 10,000 miles on the oil in said engine) possibly this week or certainly by the week after. I will then take a few new shots through the rocker cover opening and post them. My bet is that the oil still won't be black. ;-)
Best Regards,
Shipo
Best Regards,
Shipo
This sort of sounds like a "Let your fingers do the walking" exercise. Let us know how you succeed.
Best Regards,
Shipo
thank you
shifty the host
http://www.mityvac.com/pages/products_fee.asp
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If you peruse this board and others that are Passat-specific, you'll see that people have a really difficult time adhering to these recommendations. For taht matter, even some dealerships have a difficult time with it.
I change my oil every 4,000 miles using either Mobil 1 or Synpower. I drive mostly in an urban environment. And with the turbo, I won't consider exceeding the 5,000 mile OCI, even for a second.
There's a thread here on Edmunds where a Passat owner exceeding 12,000 miles twice on his 1.8T. The engine is sludged and VW is unlikely to assist under their warranty.
The cost isn't bad; until very recently I was paying $3.88 a quart for M1 at Sam's Club and getting a PureOne filter at whatever auto parts store was running a sale. Through most of the last 7 years, an oil change cost me about $20, although with the last formulation of Mobil 1, the price at Sam's really jumped. Now I watch for sales at Advance and Autozone.
I don't doubt you'll get your money's worth out of the car doing what you are doing. As someone pointed out, the rest of the car will start to fall apart before your engine wears out.
Yes cheap oil, Walmart Supertech which is on GM approved list and $2 oil filter,I only run a vehicle 120K so don't need to be fussy. Of course I have been only doing this for 50 yrs.
As a rule I don't even run mine that long (70-80K max). That having been said, I still invest in top quality Synthetic oils and filters if for no other reason than to save both time (by cutting down on maintenance) and money ("time" and "money" are pretty much the same thing in my book).
As it turns out it's a good thing too because last year my business partner and I decided to launch a new company and as such, he and I both shed our new cars (along with a number of other luxuries) in an effort to be as fiscally conservative as possible. For me that meant making our "spare car/home depot hack" my daily driver. Last June it had 85,000 on the clock, it is going to hit 110,000 next week (at the latest), and by June of 2007 (when we are figuring on our next round of new cars), it will be somewhere north of the 150,000 mile mark.
Had I skimped on maintenance, I may not have had the luxury of driving a "free" car for the two years that we are figuring it will take to get our new venture into the black.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Except for the Volvo which uses about a quart between changes (and, it's not driven often these days!), the two SAABs which use 10W-30 consume no oil between changes. And, the inside of the cam covers are perfectly clean. The two vehicles which use 5W-30 consume about 1 quart every 3K.
Perhaps this means nothing, but it's interesting the only cars that use oil at these respective mileage levels are the ones which have always used 5W-30 weight oils.
Overfill typically causes foaming in the oil sump, and cavitation, which generally affects the oiling of the bottom end, i.e. the crank and connecting rod bearings, but it can affect the top end lubrication as well (valvetrain).
I'll take a stand on engine cleanliness. I have busted down engines run solely on non-synthetic oil and found them very clean inside after high miles--of course, these were engines taken very well care of, perhaps more so than the average American driver is want to do.