Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

rocknsand

I just found this forum and have some slippery questions....

I have used products like Slick 50 and ZMAX in my vehicles over the years. My 90 Civic has 320,000 miles and still going but my 98 Wrangler just shot a rod at 150,000 miles.
I usually do oil changes about 7500 miles using an asortment of brands, except Pennzoil. Sometimes I have used the Syn Blends also.

What about these products and do they prevent "dry startup"?
Do they give you any added protection?
What about Syn Blends? worth the money or not and what is a syn oil made of anyway?

We are ready to buy a 06 CRV and after reading some of these posts, I think I will pay a little closer attention to oil/filter changes.

highroller

Alot of people in here and other websites would NOT recommend the use of aftermarket products for your oil. Just use the oil as it is. Slick 50 is one of those well-known hated products. The consensus for new car oil changes is to change it out quickly like before 500 miles with another dino/conventional oil. Then you can make the switch to synthetics after your second oil change.. If you plan on doing synthetics, i'd say just use the full synthetic... i dont really see the point of syn blends (it's priced almost as high as the full synthetics). All you need to know about synthetic oil is that it is more shear stable than dino oils, is better for startup (where most of the wear in engine occurs), and is better for extreme low and high temperature conditions. But dino oils these days have gone through more vigorous testings that alot of people say they have come a long way... they seem to protect cars almost the same as synthetics.. but my money is on synthetic still having the 'top end' or still is better than dino, in my opinion.

As for when to change oil/filters, it kind of depends on your driving conditions (if you race, high rpms, or regular/normal driver, dusty area driving, towing/hauling , etc). Id change all my oil/filter whether it be dino or synthetics at 3000 miles regardless if the oil still has alot of 'life' in them...

I dont think alot of people know this, but for new cars, the design of these newer cars need thin oils because the tolerance/clearance etc are very small and needs these thin oils to flow quickly. Let's say if your manual prefers 5w30 or 10w30, use 5w30 YEAR ROUND!!! If you put in a heavy weight of oil like the 10w30, you might restrict oil passage and can actually cause wear in the engine... this can be very bad speaking in long-terms. Most people believe since they live in a hot environment during the summer or do heavy towing, they need thicker oils for their new car... i think this a common misconception... that's why synthetics are very helpful in these situations... As the engine age pass about 90k miles or so, you may need heavier oils to keep everything lubricated. But since you have a new car, use only thin oils.

If i leave anything or miss anything, im sure someone will fill in for me... :P

gonogo

Nice to read a post with a common sense approach to oil and filters. I rarely agree with oil posts but yours is a good one, i can see you are not trying to sell anything.

highroller

Also, i think everyone should use thinner oils. Why? First, when trying to startup your vehicle, you need the oil to reach throughout the engine ASAP to prevent wear. Too thick of an oil can cause 'seizsure' as the engine is starving for oil. Thick oils reach there slower than thinner oils in my opinion. Also, thinner oils gives better fuel economy and i see thinner oils can relatively transfer heat faster than thicker oils. Thicker oils are pretty slow to transfer heat. Of course, the radiator/coolant is doing most of the cooling for the engine, but thinner oils help and is much efficient to it as well. When i meant thinner oils, i meant to say the lightest weight dino oil that is specified in your owner's manual or synthetics.

wtd44

I wonder if the oil change places have a guy that pours "walk in" synthetic oil into the boss's private 55 gallon collection drum, and gives the empty syn quart jugs to the customer after putting the bulk "dino" oil into the customer's engine. Maybe there are collection drums for different brands and grades of oils... yeah, that's it! It's a communist plot!

bottgers

Chevron and Havoline are the same oil. I started out using the Chevron, but since it's not available in my area, I now use Havoline.

highroller

Let's see... Would it matter or do do some good if one is to pre-fill the oil filter before installing it back with some amount of fresh oil? Some people i talked with say that engine has loads while idlling. Thus they say without some oil in the filter, may cause alot of friction and wear?? I tend to believe that engine has no loads or pre-filling the oil filter has no adv/disadv to it. Anyone care to speculate?

wtd44

If you do a complete oil and filter change on a car you have just been running, let's say within a couple hours of continuous time, you should not have any practical need to prefill the filter. Consider that the engine interior is thoroughly coated with oil at the time you cut off the engine.

altair4

On engines that have the oil filter placed at an angle that allows for a pre-fill, I've done it. On engines that have the filter horizontally placed, I haven't (of course! :P ), to no apparent harm. There's probably no way to measureably determine if it helps or not. I don't see any downside to doing it.

frogger123

I purchased a 2005 Grand Caravan 3.8L with 15K miles on it. Currently have 24K miles on it with about 3/4 being highway miles. Bought at dealer & service records show previous owner changed oil around every 3000 miles. I am using Castrol 5W30 and the engine is using a quart of oil every 3000 miles. Is this in the normal range? Previous caravans with the 3.0L engine I drove didn't use this much oil even after 75K miles. Any other newer vehicle I have driven has not used this much oil. Would this be considered normal oil usage. I questioned dealer. Dealer spoke with Chrysler Rep. which said this is in normal range. The van runs great with great gas mileage.

altair4

I don't know what Chrysler's stance is on oil consumption, but at least a few won't consider it to be unusual consumption unless it exceeds 1 quart in 1,000 miles. Yeah, I know, I know...totally unacceptable...just reporting what I've read.

Have you considered using a a different brand of oil, to see if it might affect the consumption issue? Not sure if that will have any impact, but might be worth investigating.

micweb

Well within spec, engine will never fail, oil is probably slipping past the valve stem guides. But you can also check the make-up (tiny) air filter in the same compartment as the regular air filter to see if it is loading up with oil from blow-by. If it's a blow-by issue, I'd ask for some information on what could be causing the problem.

You should probably use a newer "SM" rated oil to lessen contamination of the catalytic converter - the new SM grade has less zinc and other chemicals that can "poison" catalytic converters.

Changing oils probably won't help.

Do you top-up mid-change, or just do 3,000 mile oil changes now, and let it run a quart low at the end?

frogger123

When I bought the vehicle, Quaker State 10W30 oil was in the crankcase put in by the dealer. Oil consumption was about 3,500 miles per quart. I prefer using Castrol as I have in all my vehicles for the past few years. The owners manual states to use 5W30 & is the preferred.

frogger123

I believe the Castrol 5W30 is a "SM" rated oil. I'll have to double check. I do top off a 1/2 quart when it gets to 3/4 quart low. I change oil at 3,000 miles 90% of the time - may go to 4,000 miles if basically all highway miles & less than 3 months on changes. I have not let it get past a quart low. Do you really think a quart in 3K would poison a CAT?

altair4

The only reason I mentioned it was some 5w-30's are thinner than others, based on some things I've seem on some other oil forums. Don't ask me which ones, though....

micweb

I don't think a quart in 3,000 miles will poison the converter, the new SM oil is supposedly designed to extend converter life beyond the current estimated limit of 70,000 miles. But I'd get the dealer to enter your complaint into the computer, with the dealer's response printed out for your records, in case you ever have a problem with the converter.

Now I'm going to have to check the oil level on my Caravan - I was assuming there wouldn't be any oil consumption (vs. the Golf I used to have).

isellhondas

They HAVE to by nature and 3000 miles is nothing.

Mr_Shiftright

Actually a little oil consumption is good, a small benefit in fact. Lubricates upper cylinder area and valve stems.

one quart in 3K miles is perfectly normal. If it starts to drop from one oil change to the next and continues to slide downward, that's not so good. If it drops below a quart every 1,500 miles I'd start to be concerned.

You're right, oil burning at that rate wouldn't bother the converter at all, or the smog machine either.

frogger123

Thanks, I'll enjoy my van again and stay off DaimlerChrysler's back hopefully!?!?!

Mr_Shiftright

Okay but always keep an eye on oil consumption because in the first stages you can't tell if it's just a normal baseline consumption that will stabilize or the start of something.

94hawkskin

I was wondering if people could give me their thoughts on a business idea.

My idea is to have a place for you to change your own oil. We would have it set up just like a jiffy lube, but you actually do your own oil change. I'm thinking the charge would be about $5.

We would supply the bay and also have tools and a mechanic on hand in case you had trouble. We would also have oil filters and oil for sale or you could bring your own.

The advantages are you don't have to worry about dumping your oil somewhere, raisng your car, having the right tools and you make sure you do it right.

Disadvantages: Have to pay to do your own work, have to drive somewhere else.

We could also offer antifreeze and transmission flushes that you do yourself.

Right now I'm thinking it would not be a bad idea, but probably not good enough to justify the costs. What do you guys think.

shipo

Shell gas stations tried this idea back in the 1970s, unfortunately the idea wasn't a success. I suppose there are some areas around the country where this idea would fly, however, unless your shop space is utilized with other activities, I don't think it would generate enough revenue to be justifiable.

Best Regards,
Shipo

Mr_Shiftright

if you ran a business model I think you'd see this can't make any money.

altair4

I'd like to see you pitch this to an insurance broker.
You: "...and we'd let people use our garage for oil changes and such."
Broker: "Wait...you plan to let untrained, non-professional people work under a car on a lift on your premises?"
You: "Yes."
Broker: "The liability exposure is out of our league. NEXT!"

rolexrob

I prefer to use Mobil One 5w-30 symthetic oil in my 2001 Nissan Sentra XE. Since I started using a K&N air and oil filter with the Mobil One my gas mileage has gone from 26 to 30 MPG. That's tough to beat.
Rob L

winter2

I think you can attribute the increase in economy more to the K&N filter than the oil.

I have used synthetic oil for at least ten years. Started using K&N filters only few years ago and that gave the biggest bump in fuel economy.

bottgers

....K&N air filters don't filter as well as OEM filters do. It's not a good idea to use one if you're looking to get a long life from your vehicle's engine.

micweb

You said:

K&N air filters don't filter as well as OEM filters do. It's not a good idea to use one if you're looking to get a long life from your vehicle's engine.

Agreed. What's even funnier, is that changing paper air filters prematurely also leads to more engine wear. Ford published a paper on its "sealed" air filter in the PZEV engines in some of its Focii, and the study mentioned that as paper elements load up with dust, they filter better. (Of course there is a eventually a tradeoff in the ability to freely flow air.) The Ford study mentioned that not only do people reduce the effectiveness of their stock air filters by replacing them every 12,00 miles instead of their rated 30,000 lifespan, they also tend to replace them with aftermarket air filters that don't filter as well or, worse, don't fit properly and allow unfiltered air in. All this was to explain why the new sealed element filter, with a pressure drop gauge built in and user visible, was better.

I've also see user studies comparing various diesel filters for efficiency. Factory air filters (AC Delco in that instance) worked very well. Conversely, K&N filters don't work as well as paper stock elements (they do work in accordance with the specs published on the box). Once again, frequent cleaning and re-oiling is to be avoided - K&N filters work better after they have built up a cobweb of dust.

I have completely given up on aftermarket performance exhausts, cold air intakes, and K&N filters. Nowadays manufacturers are right on top of eking the maximum performance out of their cars. About the only tradeoff I see is the difference in performance for Ford 2.0 engines in PZEV and non-PZEV tune. The Chevy 2.2 Ecotec is 145 HP even in PZEV tune, from stats I see!

wtd44

I suspect we can all agree that clean oil is an undisputable advantage to any automotive engine. I do not intend to "restart" any battles over 3K versus 5K, etc., but will continue to change mine at 3K miles along with the oil filter. I further suspect I'll keep changing air filters between 10K and 15K. It works for me!

shipo

"I suspect we can all agree that clean oil is an undisputable advantage to any automotive engine."

Well, maybe. Personally I'd much rather have "Dirty" fully synthetic oil with 9,500 miles on it than "Clean" conventional oil with 0 miles on it in my oil pan.

The fact is that just because oil is "Clean" that doesn't mean that it is protecting your engine from wear, rust, sludge and acid formation. The flip side of course is that used "Dirty" 100% synthetic oil will offer better protection in all of those same areas (err, well all except for maybe rust if you don't drive the car regularly) as compared to new petrolium based oils.

Best Regards,
Shipo

wtd44

And I have taken my turn in the "synthetic" barrel, as well. I gave it up for what I see as the far more reasonable alternative: High quality petroleum oil and a clean filter every 3000 or so miles. Hydrocracking produces lubricants just as utilitarian as does synthesis.

shipo

"Hydrocracking produces lubricants just as utilitarian as does synthesis."

Sorry, not buying. Simply too much scientific evidence to the contrary.

As for your "clean" filter every 3,000 miles... Sorry, not buying that either. The "dirty" filter in my car with 9,500 miles on it does a far superior job of "cleaning" the oil than a newish oil filter with less than 3,000 miles on it.

Personally I simply don't understand why folks stay with cheap oil and frequent oil changes when there is such a huge repository of evidence supporting extended oil changes with fully Synthetic oil. The sad fact is that an engine run on fully synthetic oil with an OCI of 10,000-15,000 miles will easily outlast even the best maintained car. With that in mind, why would a person rationally choose to waste their time and money on frequent (and decades outdated) oil changes? :confuse:

Best Regards,
Shipo

gonogo

FWIW I seen it stated by synthetic oil manufacture not to exceed the auto manufacture oil change recommendations. Makes sense to me, dirty oil is dirty oil. You are right about rust, synthetic give no protection for rust.

shipo

"You are right about rust, synthetic give no protection for rust."

I never said that, nor is it true in an absolute sense. What I said was, "...well all except for maybe rust if you don't drive the car regularly..."

I said that for two reasons:
1) Due to the superior flow properties of synthetic oil, it will run off the internal surfaces of the engine if left long enough (as in weeks).
2) Due to the superior stability of synthetic oil, it will not vaporize under high heat and as a consequence it won't coat interior engine components with a layer of varnish. In addition, due to the superior cleaning ability of synthetic oil, it will wash off any built up varnish and sludge left behind by any previous usage of non or semi synthetic oil (including hydrocracked fake synthetics).

If I had a car that I only drove once every month or so, then I'd either "Pickle" the engine between drives (if the manufacturer required synthetic oil), or I would use a petroleum based oil. That having been said, for my daily driver, it's 100% synthetic all of the way.

Regarding your comment that said, "FWIW I seen it stated by synthetic oil manufacture not to exceed the auto manufacture oil change recommendations. Makes sense to me, dirty oil is dirty oil."

They have to state that simply because the auto manufacturers can and often will void your warranty if you've exceeded the OCI, regardless of how clean and capable your oil is. The truth of the matter is quite different than what you suggest as evidenced by OCI specs from BMW, and Porsche to name just two. Since they spec fully synthetic oil for their cars, they've been able to extend the OCI to 15,000 miles or more. To take it one step further, back when I was working for MB-USA in Montvale, NJ, they were doing some synthetic oil testing on the then yet to be released W210 E-Class (we're talking 1995 here). The engineers simply took factory new cars, filled them with fully synthetic (German made Castrol IIRC), kept them topped off and ran a full oil analysis every 1,000 miles. These cars were driven by the executives of MB in and around the congested NYC metro area and as such were subject to what many would call "Severe Service". Any guess as to what they found? I'll tell you, they found that the oil was good for over 20,000 miles before it dropped to their pre-established minimum. Not too shabby.

In my case, I'm more than happy to keep within the manufacturers recommendations, while I'm under warranty. Once said warranty is up, I typically take a car with a 7,500 OCI and extend it to 10,000 miles, I'd go further but at that point, new oil is more cost justifiable than oil analysis. The fact is that even after the full 10K, the oil is still not "dirty", in fact, as I said before, more than likely, it's both "cleaner" and better able to protect the engine than lesser oil would be after only 3,000 miles. So, dirty oil isn't really dirty oil after all. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

micweb

Shipo,

Longer oil change intervals reduce the risk of a mechanic stripping the threads on the oil pan drain bolt.

On the other hand, most oil change shops and dealers check fluid levels (coolant, brake, etc.) and tire pressure at every oil change, and some include underbody visual checks (muffler, tie rods, cv joints) and engine compartment checks (fan belts).

For the active owner, you can do it yourself. For a lot of other people who NEVER, for example, check their tire pressure, 3,000 mile oil changes aren't a bad thing.

shipo

"Longer oil change intervals reduce the risk of a mechanic stripping the threads on the oil pan drain bolt."

I of course cheat. ;-) I use an oil extractor and suck it out through the dip stick. I think the last time I pulled a drain plug was an easy five or six years ago, and hopefully I'll never have to do it again. :shades:

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2

Like you, I noticed a brown film under the oil filler cap of my wife's X3 2.5. As a result, this weekend I replaced the BMW synthetic with Mobil 1 0W-40. I'm going to run a very conservative 7500 OCI, at least for a year or so.

shipo

How did the oil smell? Anything like the old (and maybe even current for all I know) paraffin based Quaker State? I ask because that's what the (dealership provided) oil smelled like in my 328i, hence my switch to Mobil-1 for the 530i.

From my perspective, the BMW/Castrol Syntech is at least somewhat suspect given both the smell and the amount of varnish that built up inside my 328i (and that didn't build up in my Mobil-1 lubricated 530i). I say somewhat suspect simply because a number of BMW dealerships were alleged to have used more pedestrian oil in a class action law suit a couple of years back. Did my dealership use the BMW/Castrol oil in my 328i? Don't know.

FWIW, if you want to peek inside of the engine of one of our Caravans, check out the "Caravan Stuff" in my photo album at http://photos.yahoo.com/shipo. In there you'll find a detail shot through the rocker cover taken at the 104,000 mile mark (4,000 miles after the last oil change), at which point the oil pooled in the rocker arm is still perfectly clear and "clean". Note also the top of the rocker arm shaft, that metal looks just as clean as the day the van was bought new. Not too shabby. ;-)

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2

How did the oil smell? Anything like the old (and maybe even current for all I know) paraffin based Quaker State? I ask because that's what the (dealership provided) oil smelled like in my 328i, hence my switch to Mobil-1 for the 530i.

Can't say I performed a sniff test, but I do know that Mobil 1 never left varnish in the engines of my other vehicles-Jeep, Nissan, or BMW-and I run at least a 7.5K OCI on all of them. I do know the dealer that performed the first oil service on the X3 and I would be extremely surprised if they had used anything other than the BMW/Castrol synthetic. In any event, I wiped the varnish off the X3's oil filler cap so I'll have to wait and see if it returns.

wtd44

Your info, while mostly true some years ago, is pretty much out of date. And to refer to hydrocracked oil as being "fake" synthetic would indicate to me that you do not have basic knowledge of these two chemical processes. I am no expert in the matter, so I can only advise you to look into it. You may be surprised by your finding that both processes end up yielding quite similar products.

gonogo

You use synthetic oil and remove it by sucking it out the dipstick tube, that is an interesting combination.
You think a person so concerned about his engine that he goes to the expense to buy synthetic oil that he would at least want to get all the sludge out the bottom of the pan. Do to the effect of gravity everything end up at the bottom.
In marine applications most times you have little choice, not my car, drain plug and dino oil.

shipo

Setting aside the argument about Synthetic vs. fake Synthetic for the moment (I'll get to that later when I have some more time), you sound as if you think that using an oil extractor is an inferior method of oil removal. I happen to disagree. Consider the following:

When I first bought my Pela, I sucked all of the oil out of my 530i and then pulled the plug, not a drip. I then sucked the oil out of both of our Caravans and once again, not a drop was to be had from either. The flip side was that each of the three yielded a fair amount of metal shavings during each of the first few extraction oil changes. After a few go arounds with the Pela, the shavings extracted along with the oil tailed off to barely any, which suggests to me that the oil extractor is a far superior method of oil removal.

Think what you wish, do what you like. I for one am convinced that the "Good old fashioned drain plug" is just that, old fashioned and out of date in light of newer (at least from a cost effective perspective) methods.

Best Regards,
Shipo

gonogo

Are you implying that the engine manufactures are going to stop installing oil pan drain plugs because they are old fashion.

shipo

Tehe! Nope, not implying that at all. ;-) Unfortunately the reverse seems to be true. BMW, in their infinite wisdom has done away with the dipstick on their new engines and as such the drain plug is the only method of draining the oil. :-(

Best Regards,
Shipo

shipo

Considering the facts…

Okay, here goes. I looked around at the latest oil specs from manufacturers that specify synthetic oil in their cars (this list is just a sampling; I did not spend the time to find every manufacturer). I then looked at the web sites of various automotive engine oil makers to see which of their oils met with which of the manufacturers’ standards. Consider the following:

--------------------------------------------------------------- Castrol ---- Pennzoil --- Amsoil European
Manufacturer ------- Oil Spec ------ Mobil 1 --- Syntech -- Platinum ------ Car Formula
BMW ---------------- BMW-LL-01 --- 0W-40 ------ 0W-30 -------------------------- 5W-40
GM ------------------- GM 4718M ---- 0W-30 ------ 5W-30 ---- 5W-30 ----------- 5W-30*
GM ------------------- GM-LL-A-25 -- 0W-40 ------ 0W-30 --------------------------- 5W-40
Mercedes-Benz - 229.5 ------------ 0W-40 ------ 0W-30 --------------------------- 5W-40
Porsche ------------ A.L. 2002 ------ 0W-40 ------ 5W-40 --------------------------- 5W-40
VW/Audi ----------- 503.01 ---------- 0W-40 ------ 0W-30 --------------------------- 5W-40

* The spec for the Corvette (GM 4718M) is met by Amsoil 100% Synthetic

Notice any patterns? I do. Not a single oil that meets any of those standards are hydrocracked fake Synthetics, I checked and couldn't find even one.

The truth of the matter is that while fake Synthetics are pretty good oils, IMHO, they are not even in the same league as full Synthetics. That having been said, I'm certainly willing to be proven wrong. If you have any scientific evidence that suggests that recent improvements in hydrocracking technology has yielded oils on par with full Synthetics, please share it, I'd love to look it over.

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2

FWIW, Vavoline Synpower 5W-40 meets BMW LL-01. Also, there is a new Castrol synthetic now on sale across the pond that meets BMW LL-04.
Now get this: I e-mailed BMW NA asking which oils were on BMW's approved list for the X3, and their reply was:

"BMW recommends BMW High Performance Synthetic engine oil, Castrol Synthetic, Mobil 1 Synthetic, and Valvoline High Performance Synthetic. The engine oil you choose should have a weight of SAE 5W-30."

With the exception of the BMW house brand, none of the other 5W-30 oils BMW recommends meet LL-01 or ACEA A3/B3/B4. Go figure...

shipo

"FWIW, Vavoline Synpower 5W-40 meets BMW LL-01."

That figures, Valvoline has always made pretty damn good oil, I simply forgot to look them up. My bad. ;-)

Hmmm, a new BMW LL-04 standard? Cool. Any idea when we're going to have to start using it?

Best Regards,
Shipo

altair4

You wrote:

VW/Audi ----------- 503.01 ---------- 0W-40 ------ 0W-30 --------------------------- 5W-40

Not to split hairs, but....

If I'm not mistaken, the 503.01 is the diesel spec for VW. At least through 2005 MY, the gas engine oil spec is 502.00. Castrol (5w-40) and Valvoline (5w-40 Synpowerr and 5w-30 MaxLife Synthetic) meet 502.00 and are hydrocracked (IIRC).

VW's website also lists about 4 more products from PZ/QS, but I've never seen them on the shelf anywhere.

shipo

Not to worry, splitting hairs in the quest of information is cool. ;-)

According to the VW specs the following applies:

503 series (i.e. .00, .01): Oil spec for the higher performance gasoline engines, specifically the S4, RS4, TT, S3 (with more than 180 HP), Passat W8 and Phaeton W12.

505 and 506 series: Oil spec for the diesel engine line. In this case, the higher the number, the later the spec.

For more detail, please refer to a post of mine from a couple of weeks back regarding the full line of VW Oil Specifications. Said post can be seen at the following link:

shipo, "Passat Oil Issues" #8, 10 Mar 2006 8:48 pm

Best Regards,
Shipo

div2

Hmmm, a new BMW LL-04 standard? Cool. Any idea when we're going to have to start using it?

The new Castrol synthetic is Castrol GTX9 Magnatec 5W-30. I suspect that LL-04 will apply to the upcoming Valvetronic and turbo gas/diesel engines-but that's just a guess.