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Engine Oil - A slippery subject Part 2

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Comments

  • bluedevilsbluedevils Member Posts: 2,554
    Yes, that Contour filter is huge compared to the others I've seen! By the way, that thing is a major PITA to remove.
  • pinchydelriospinchydelrios Member Posts: 8
    Could any tell me what the numbers mean on oil. IE: 5W-30W etc. Also I drive high mileage vehicles in hot conditions. I have been using a 20-50 because a friend said this was a good oil for older engines any thoughts. Sorry one more question what is Marvel Mystery Oil?
  • hengheng Member Posts: 411
    The simple explanation is:

    the 1st number is the viscosity (oil thickness) when the oil is cold.

    the 2nd number is when the oil is hot.

    (someone else want to explain how the Saybolt or SAE viscosity tests are done?)

    As for using 20-50, I wouldn't use it for "older" engines but for WORN engines. I've had many engines over 100K miles that didn't use oil (or very little) so continuing to use the regular weight oils was fine. I would resort to 20-50 only if you have trouble keeping enough oil in the engine between oil changes.

    I used 20-50 back in the '70s when it was common to have hundreds of cars over heat and pull over on the Long Island expressway during a hot summer day. 20-50 was a little added insurance if you over heated the engine.

    Marvel mystery oil seems to be just that: a mystery. But read the can yourself. If you need to address engine problems and believe Marvel mystery oil will help, try it.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    The higher the number the "thicker" the oil. A 10W-50 oil is still thinner hot than cold. But not as thin as if it were a straight 20 wt. oil. The "W" means its tested for Winter conditions. (it can be pumped at some low number-32F I think. Like heng says Marvel is a mystery. Still I use it in the gasoline every now and again for the sake of the injectors. Not really sure it works. It's "feel good" stuff. I wouldn't mix it with your engine oil. It's really not needed here.

    Al
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    When mixed with gasoline in a fuel tank this stuff provides lubrication to the fuel pump, valves, upper cylinder walls, carburetor (on older cars and small engines) and other parts of the fuel system.

    I'm a little reluctant to use it in cars with fuel injectors as I never know if it will help (act as a lubricant/detergent) or hurt (clog the injectors). User beware. I like this stuff in carbureted power equipment, though.

    Back when straight-weight oils were the only thing out there, this stuff was added to the crankcase to thin the straight 20 and 30 weight oils so they would flow better in the cold during start-up.

    In general, always use oils with the narrower spreads between the first (winter) and second (summer) numbers. Avoid 0W30, 5W40, 5W50, 10W50, etc ... The viscosity improvers used to bridge this gap are the first components in the oil to break down and when they go, their cooked remains can stay behind and gum up your motor.

    For older, worn motors in warm weather, 10W30 is a good, all-around choice. 15W40 or 20W50 is good if those engines are really run hard or it is extremely hot where you live.

    --- Bror Jace
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    I wouldn't expect anyone to use MMO on my say so, but I have used MMO in 4 fuel injected vehicles in the past 8 years (couple of gallons of the stuff). No fuel injector problems at all. Using the stuff gives a noticable milage increase (about one mile per gallon). I'm not very religious about using it though. It's got to reduce wear in the cylinder top end/rings and valve guides IMHO.
  • alcanalcan Member Posts: 2,550
    "For older, worn motors in warm weather, 10W30 is a good, all-around choice"

    From my 1996 G Platform (Riviera/Aurora) factory manual:
    The recommended oil viscosity for this vehicle when the temperature is above 0F is SAE 10W30. When the temperature will be very cold and never above 60F 5W30 should be used in all models.

    When all else fails, read the instructions.
  • yurakmyurakm Member Posts: 1,345
    The same with 2000 3800 Series-II GM engine, both naturally aspirated and SC, according to 2000 Buick Regal manual.

    The manual also recommends either synthetic 5W-30 or 0W-30 for very cold climate. -20F and colder, if I remember it right.
  • pinchydelriospinchydelrios Member Posts: 8
    Just wanted to say thank you to all of those that responded to my question. I am now armed with better knowledge on this subject than when I first asked. Thanks again.
  • finalfleetwoodfinalfleetwood Member Posts: 2
    Post # 154: "I'm not on this post to sell amsoil."

    Post #157: "In your area I would go to amsoil 0w30 and the amsoil filter and bypass filter.In most cases the amsoil filter is cheaper than the mobil 1 filter,amsoil is the better oil but mobil 1 is
    ok.I would also get the amsoil air filter."
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    armtdm gets a little excited about Amsoil, that's all.

    The hype-frenzy surrounding multi-level marketed products TOTALLY turns me off which is why I usually avoid them completely. This goes for Shaklee, Amway and Amsoil. Usually there are plenty of other alternatives ... and this is certainly the case with synthetic motor oils.

    I avoid MLM cosmetics too ... but since I'm a guy, that's awfully easy. >;^}

    --- Bror Jace

    PS - And I'd never recommend a 0W30 motor oil ... unless you lived above the Arctic Circle.
  • yupyup2yupyup2 Member Posts: 4
    My Chrysler minivan has 104k miles on it. Always had the oil changed every 3k. Normally between a change it would consume 1 1/2 to 2 quarts of oil. Is this normal? Where does this oil go? Out the exhaust?
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Depending on the driving you do, with conventional oils you could use as much as probably 8 oz to evaporation/votility. Unless you have no leaks most of it is going through the rings and out the exhaust. If your car smokes on startup the valve guides may be worn. More than likely your ring(s) are worn or you have a broken one. Dealers/factory considers anything over 1 qt per 500 miles "normal" I believe. Is that "normal", hell no. Some engines use more oil than others due to ring design/hardness etc. But the plain fact of the matter is that one engine off of the assembly line (or maybe off the car carrier- already over-reved) may use 1 qt. per 1000 miles and one may use one quart in 6,000 miles. Syn will reduce consumption, but in your case it probably won't help. If you use good oil and change oil and filter regularly and drive reasonably, your consumption probably will not go up dramatically. When I had an '88 Ranger with 2.3 (Bad engine) it used about a qt. in the first 2500mi after each oil change and about a qt. every 1000miles thereafter. Never could figure that out. Anyway I used to mix a qt of 15W-50 Mobil 1 with the oil and that helped. You will sacrifice some economy and it may not be recommended. But coming from the same folks who say 1 qt. every 500 mi. is O.K.- screw 'em.
    Good luck. Just my thoughts.

    Al
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Redline (a maker of super-premium synthetic oils) has the following bit of text on their site:

    "(Typical motor) oils will adequately lubricate most automotive engines, even many high-performance engines, because the manufacturers know that the highway patrol will catch you before high-speed operation can cause significant damage."

    For over a year I thought about this and didn't really know what to make of it. Could it be true? perhaps but I filed it away in my head under the heading "Might be true, might be BS ..."

    Well, last night I saw a police-video show and the boys in blue were chasing a stolen Eagle Talon AWD Turbo. That car has something like 190 horsepower and is a seriously quick ride. The driver, a thief, was playing with the cops because at will, he could step on it and outdistance the police Chevy Caprices or Ford Crown Vics with ease. At one point they clocked him at 140mph. They stayed within sight of him as he tried to turn and maneuver his way away from them but to no avail.

    At least 15-20 minutes later, the narrator said his motor went off-song, lost power and the cop whose camera you've been watching this whole ordeal through, catches up with him and rams him off the road. End of chase.

    Assuming he had just a regular oil in the car (and chances are he did), I wonder if having a better, synthetic lubricant would have preserved his engine any longer? In this case, I'm pretty sure we'll never know.

    Watching this show regularly, I've seen this sort of thing happen before. The pursuee's engine starts to overheat, lose power, etc ... and that's what ends the chase.

    Hmmm ... makes you wonder.

    --- Bror Jace
  • rchinnrchinn Member Posts: 23
    The last place that I went to change my oil were pushing these 2 oil additive products. Do they do any good or just a waste of money?
  • hengheng Member Posts: 411
    Unless you have an old vehicle that you want to nurse along without actually fixing the problems (leaky seals, lifter noise, etc), oil additives are a waste.
  • trippinglizardtrippinglizard Member Posts: 56
    I have 2001 Dakota V8 4.7 . . . after the dealer suggested break in period of 500 miles I put Mobile 1 synthetic in and immediately noticed a increase in horsepower, reduced engine noise, and a slight improvement in gas mileage . . . which might just be the engine breaking in . . . However I can't ignore the fact that the engine is much more quite and acceleration was much improved!!
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    rchinn, which additives were they pushing? Something like Slick-50 or Prolong? I avoid that stuff. All those 'miracle' additve companies are facing big-time lawsuits over false advertising, etc ...

    I agree, most are a waste or snake oil. The STP-type thickeners aren't bad for a nearly-lost-cause worn out motors ... but then again you don't have too much to lose with something that burns oil, smokes and could blow at any moment. Still, the zinc phosphate these additves like STP Oil Extender have in them are helpful ... but it's not an ideal alternative to changing your oil regularly.

    It's really hard to tell if the synthetic is giving you the extra horsepower you perceive in your new vehicle. I feel the better anectdotal evidence is when you've been driving the car for a couple years (gotten fairly used to it) and then switch to synthetic oil and notice a difference.

    --- Bror Jace
  • trippinglizardtrippinglizard Member Posts: 56
    I also "perceived" a big difference when I did it in my old 91 leberon . . . it defiantly quiets the engine.
    I'm an expert in Perception . . . I have a psychology degree . . . :) Who exactly are you to decide what is or is not anecdotal evidence when you aren't here with me . . . ?
    Gosh darn it go burst someone else's bubble!
  • trippinglizardtrippinglizard Member Posts: 56
    Everyone is entitled to their opinions . . . what expertise do you have under your belt to be throwing around all this wisdom?
  • rkpattrkpatt Member Posts: 23
    Comments and references would be appreciated on the quality of store brand oil - is it "b" grade vs "A' grade for name brand.

    1. Walmart brand - made by Quaker State ? - only full synthetic is 10w30

    2. Pepboys brand - made by Valvolene ? - only full synthetic is 10w30

    3. Advance Auto /ADV Brand - made by Valvolene - only full synthetic is 10w30

    4. Discount Auto Parts brand - made by ?

    Thanks
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Who knows. There have been no comparison tests made by anyone to determine if the store brand is, in fact, the same formulation as the brand name manufacturer of the same oil. As most knock offs, ie. store brand, whether it be oil or filters, are made to different specifications (usually to get the cheaper price) my "personal opinion" is that the specs on the oil would not be the same if an analysis was done on two unused samples, one being the store brand the other the name brand. However, I do not wish to waste my $20 by sending in two sample of new oil. Sure, both pass the API tests and are rated SH but there probably are differences in additives. If you change every 3000 miles go with the cheapest, at 3000 miles it does not make any difference what you use.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Tripping Lizard, oil is a favorite automotive subject of mine and I've spent the last decade and a half (on and off) researching it. I'm a somewhat obsessive do-it-yourselfer. I also have lots of first hand experience and I take careful notes regarding my car's performance and mileage and I've been able to follow numerous vehicles over hundreds of thousands of miles.

    I would weigh more heavily someone noticing a difference in a car they've had for many years than a change in one that's quite new to him or her. That's just basic with regard to human perception and you should know why if in fact you have a degree in psychology.

    My favorite story was a guy that changed his wife's Chrysler over from dead-dino oil to Mobil 1 (15W50?) without telling her. The next day she asked him what he had done to the car to make it run so much better. Assuming the guy wasn't lying to me, THAT is powerful anectdotal evidence!!

    --- Bror Jace
  • trippinglizardtrippinglizard Member Posts: 56
    Just yanking your throttle cable . . . makes sense to me!! :)
  • rkpattrkpatt Member Posts: 23
    Most of my daily driving is 5-10 min short trips. I want to change to synthetic but want to extend the oil and filter change interval to 7,500 when I go synthetic. Will it keep the contaminants out
    (acid buuild up etc) or am I better off staying with dino and more frequent changes ? Thanks
  • itsmeagainitsmeagain Member Posts: 11
    I am curious as to how you came up with the conclusion that those store brand motor oils are made by those well known oil companies.
  • treyh1treyh1 Member Posts: 34
    I've read enough of these forums to know that everybody has an answer, and each one is different. Some people will tell you that 15,000 on synthetic is fine, some will tell you that 3,000 mile changes is mandatory & just good sense.

    I've got a 2000 Honda minivan, and our driving habits are somewhere between the "severe" (every 3750) and "normal" (every 7500 with the filter changed only every other time) schedules. 7500 seems like a long time to me, so I'm running synthetic. In about a month, when I do a change, I'm sending a sample to get analyzed for $20. No guessing, no chances. If they say it's fine, I'll go to 7,500 miles (and maybe longer after the warranty runs out) & not worry about it. If they say it has too much moisture, ash or whatever, I'll go back to the "severe" schedule & regular Castrol.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    That's the way I did it when I first started using synthetics. I started at 3,000 and gradually worked my way up. Depending on the car I go from 7,500 to one year between changes (the one year is 7,000-10,000 miles. Oil analysis looks about the same for all miles except when I go over 12,000, then I start to see too much dirt as parts per million. Note, if your engine is new the silicon level in parts per million may read high but that is probably not due to dirt but due to silicon seals in newer engines which is not harmful. Look for the iron count (remmber oil analysis is trend analysis so one print out may not say much) My cars are between 15ppm-30ppm for iron and the cut off for my analysis company is about 32 ppm for dirt. Above that they flag it. Higher iron usually means more wear from dirt. so if iron is low but silicon up is is just the seals. My 7,500 mile change car is about a 10 mile ave trip and I have not seen condensation or unusual build ups. Of course, it rarely gets below 20 degrees F where I live. They should provide you with water as a % of volume as well as gas as a % of volume.
  • jukeboxcarl2jukeboxcarl2 Member Posts: 35
    I can change oil and filter for about 7.00 and 20 minutes of my time. Just do your engine a favor and change oil every 4k or 4mos. Thats long enough for dirt and byproducts of combustion to be in oil. Stay with major brands and buy when on sale. Also if you want more protection you can add 1 quart of Syn to Dino. They are both compatable.
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    Agree, any piece of crap filter and any SJ rated oil the cheapest available if changed every 3,000 miles will get the engine to 100,000 plus miles. However, the hassle of the change (even if you quote the 20 min quicky) is a hassle. I prefer to use quality and extended.

    Anyway my analysis costs $9 plus shipping of $1.54

    My changes, since I do them maybe twice a year at most per car last longer, I drain the oil overnight, check very carefully underneath for leaks, wear, boots etc. and clean up under there. So, perhaps an hour or so for the actual work. By draining overnight I get an additional 1/4 - 1/2 quart of oil out.
  • tc93tc93 Member Posts: 19
    Re post # 532, jukeboxcarl2

    What oil analysis service do you use for only ~$10? Do they provide the full spectra analysis, including TN?
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    I started using Analysts, Inc. out of WI years ago when their kits were sold by Amsoil dealers. Amsoil has gone on to their own company but I continue to get the kits directly from the company (plastic container, box, tubing) Syphons the oil out of the dipstick tube. Their charge is $9 for analysis (wear metals,dirt, chemicals,about 10-15 metals/elements/chemicals) plus viscosity, TBN, % of vol for fuel, water and solids. They have a more complete one for $15 but I tried it once and did seem to see much diff. There are many companies out there from what I hear, some chain auto parts stores I hear sell kits. I don't have their phone number handy but do an internet search for the company and it should come up.
  • tc93tc93 Member Posts: 19
    I've used the Titan Labs analysis kits that are sold at I Mart, Auto Zone, etc., but, contrary to the advertisement, it took ~4 weeks to get the results back. And, the test results are very basic - not worth the ~$17 for the kit as far as I'm concerned. I've used Oil Analyzes (apparently an Am soil subsidiary) and am pleased. I think I'll give your o. a whirl. Thanks.
  • projectzx3projectzx3 Member Posts: 256
    i want to use synthetic in my new vw golf. is it ok to use a synthetic oil in volkswagens? the dealer said not to but i think they just want to get the service work.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    I think you're right. The dealer just wants to make more nmoney from the service work.

    --- Bror Jace
  • pepper32pepper32 Member Posts: 23
    What brand of oil do you guys and girls use and why?
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    Based on documented testing reports and my own good experiences over 8 years. I am going to try Red Line though-next change.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    I use synthetics right now (Mobil 1, Valvoline and I'm trying Redline next) but if I was going to pick a brand of conventional/mineral oil to use it would be Valvoline ... especially their new Max-Life oil.

    --- Bror Jace
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    First choice, only via years of use Amsoil. Next choice would be Mobil 1. Haven't tried RedLine as yet. User Havoline synthetic in lawn mower etc because it is so much less expensive to buy then the others!
  • gtownguygtownguy Member Posts: 73
    I've read a lot here on different oils and used a lot myself. To me, its hard to judge any oil today as the Jiffy Lubes of present make it so well known that you should change it every 3k miles. However, I recall hearing about a Mobil 1 oil disaster when it first came out. It might have been in aircraft? They had to replace engines and did so very quietly. I have also heard of (good friend) at a mercedes benz service class (regional) of having the instructor have a student who claimed his dealership used Mob1 in the MB's they sold call immediately and stop using it in front of everyone.?? I probably new more then, but this was probably 15+ years ago. Anyways, anyone else heard of problems with mob1 years ago?

    Tom.
  • adc100adc100 Member Posts: 1,521
    The problem as I understand, was that the aviation fuel had some deleterious effect on one of the additives. It seems that it was the additive which helps the TBN (total base number). This only occurred in extended drain intervals. The Mobile 1 rep I delt with indicated to me that for the small amount of business it sent their way it was not worth continuing to market the product. This has no relationship to Mobil 1 automotive oil and automotive engines (supposedly)
  • randyt2randyt2 Member Posts: 81
    How long has 5-20W oil been around? I've seen posts on it saying that it may/will reduce auto life, but has anyone been using it (non-synthetic) for a long time, and for those who have been using it, have you had any problems?
  • rcarbonircarboni Member Posts: 290
    Hi all. Just throwing my .02 in. I have used Mobil 1 for about the past 5 years or more (can't really remember when I started.) My current vehicles, however, have started off with Amsoil, and are getting changed at 1 year with 5K filter changes. Analysis is done at the change, and I'm hoping to install by-pass filters on both vehicles soon.


    As I put about 20K/yr on my daily driver, using synthetic is actually less expensive than 3K changes with even cheap dino.


    I find it interesting that there are still people who stick to 3K changes for no apparent reason. They do not do analysis, so they have no idea what the condition of their engine or oil is, yet they talk about how beneficial the short intervals are to the life of an engine. Additionally, there is no reason that anyone has shown NOT to extend drains with quality synths and analysis.


    Finally, Here is a testimonial to top all the rest - 535,000 miles on one-year oil changes:

    http://www.techdata.org/chevytruck535000.htm

  • bblahabblaha Member Posts: 329
    Well, to be fair, compared to just about everything else you do or have done on your car, oil changes are cheap, even at 3000 miles.
  • gtalaveragtalavera Member Posts: 15
    Would like to know whats the best non-synthetic
    5W-30 oil? Afraid to use synthetic because of possible seepage. An expert opinion would be appreciated. thanks.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    5W20 is new for this year ... and the 2001 model year Fords and Hondas. It is believed that these makers are using this stuff to reduce their CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) numbers to please the EPA (Environmental Protection Agency). Long term affects on durability are not known ... except for some testing by the manufacturers.

    I think Honda has their own (available at their dealerships) and Motorcraft 5W20 is available at Walmart and other locations.

    --- Bror Jace
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Synthetic making cars prone to leaks is blown way out of proportion. It was a problem over a year ago ... but it has been largely solved with the proper additives.

    But, if you're sticking with dead-dino oil, I'd go with Valvoline Max-Life oil. It's about $2 per quart and very good for older cars. See:

    http://www.valvoline.com/products/products.asp?cat=1&Product=53

    --- Bror Jace
  • overthetopoverthetop Member Posts: 10
    I tend to be sceptical about a truck exceeding 500,000 miles when it is followed by a plug for a motor oil.Especially sceptical when the owner thinks it altogether the brand of oil that saved the truck.

    Most manufacturers motor oils today provide adequite protection for your car. However oil is not the end of the story. Changing it properly and on time, maintaining the rest of the vehicle to reduce stress, and driving the car responsibly also make the difference.THe type of driving you do such as highway/city is also crucial.

    The last factor, as much as I hate to say it is luck. Some cars are just not meant for the long haul. Whether this is due to their engineering, deviations on the assembly line, or even a product of their environment I'm not sure. I had as my second car a MAZDA MX3 V6 that I babied to death, and yet it died at 100,000 miles. My Subaru is still running like a swiss watch at 300,000+ miles. Both cars used synthetic oils from Castrol. I am sure the result would have been the same if they used Redline or any other major oil.
  • brorjacebrorjace Member Posts: 588
    Overthetop, the Valvoline MaxLife oil uses heavily hydrocracked group III basestocks and hype aside, I'm betting it's an excellent oil. Better than conventional oils made from group II stocks. MaxLife's actually blurring the line between normal oils and synthetics ... much like Castrol Syntec has. One of its benefits is that it supposedly is really good for engine seals.

    I guess we'll never know about your MX3 ... but it would have been neat to see how much (if any) longer Redline could've kept it running.

    When you said it 'died', what do you mean exactly?

    --- Bror Jace
  • armtdmarmtdm Member Posts: 2,057
    I would like to know how you put 300,000 miles on the ole Subura using Castrol Syntec as this non synthetic (but sold as one) oil has been on the market for only a few years. You must drive 60,000 miles a year, the only way that 300,000 could be done with Syntec! And if you do drive 60,000 a year then that answers my question, all highway driving. Car shoudl make a million with so little stress.
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