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Over the weekend I did the Dawn/Clay/Dawn/Swirl Remover/Meguiars Gold Class on two cars: a Dark Blue Honda Accord, and a Pastel Yellow Hyundai Tiburon. I used Meguirs #9 Swirl Remover on the Tiburon, and Scratch-X on the Honda Accord.
While both cars look great, THEY STILL HAVE SWIRL MARKS! The Scratch-X was very strong (It seemed to create a darker shade of blue on my accord??!), but it didn't make a difference at all with the Swirl Marks.
Is my only option now to take it to have the cars machine buffed?
If they are more serious then you have 2 choices: Take it into a shop, or try it yourself with a Random orbital buffer using Meguiar's fine cut cleaner and immediately apply Meguiar's Swirl Mark Remover version 2.0.
When I bought an older used car 2 years ago I had to use the fine cut cleaner to remove rain spotting. Swirl Remover and Kitts Scratch remover didn't do anything. I had to move up a level to get a truly clean surface. It seemed to have left a dull finish but the instructions said to follow up with Swirl Mark Remover #9. It looked good then and has maintained itself well. It wasn't perfect but it looked a heck of a lot better. I haven't needed to use the Fine Cut Cleaner since.
The Meguiars tech support said that while the Fine Cut Cleaner can be used with an orbital buffer that it is really designed to be actuated with a rotary buffer. The higher speeds increase the polishing capability. This to me would mean a professional job since I won't touch a rotary buffer.
I am debating between these two for my wife's 2002 white CRV and my mother's 1998 champagne Buick LeSabre. My mother doesn't drive much, doesn't wash the car often, and it is garage kept. I am interested in durability and ease of application. I would love to be able to wash, clay, and apply 1 and 3 coats of the synthetic products in under 4 hours.
I am leaning toward the Blackfire since you do not have to wait between applications of the protectant and because the heat and humidity do not impact the ease of application. Also thought it might look good on my Dark Green Accord after the current wax job disappears.
One thing I was wondering is does the Blackfire have the longevity of Klasse? If there is no significant difference in durability I plan to go for it.
Has anyone out there used Blackfire? I just read through the info on properautocar.com and it looks very impressive. However if I am going to order this stuff, I was looking for some testimonials of people on this board who have actually used it.
look at the bottom of the products someone on the site has compared them. Based on the reviews, I will try Blackfire if I decide to go with a resin rather than a carnauba on a car that has oxidation damage. The review said that Klasse could be fussy. Had no such problems with Blackfire. Just wish it was less expensive.
On the cars with good finishes I am more than happy with the 3M Perfect-It Show car wax or Meguiars, although I am tempted to try P21S paste since it seemed to be the best of the Carnaubas according to thewaxtest.org original survey.
Does anyone know of a product that will quickly and completely remove water spots from a car's paint? I tried the vinegar/water process and it removed some of the spots but you could still see them. I finally was able to remove them all by using some 3-M rubbing compound safe for clearcoat. Trouble is, that it took most of an afternoon and lots of "elbow grease"! Thanks...
I recently washed, clayed, used 3M IHG, and waxed with Collinite. The Dark Green 2000 Accord looks great but I have other cars that I plan to use Blackfire on for ease of application and durability. I have a couple of questions: 1. If I wash off the wax and apply the Blackfire would I need to clay the car again so that the Blackfire can properly bond and seal? 2. Will claying the car remove or affect the 3M IHG?
I go away for a few days and come back to lots of posts. Must be Detailing Season.
Blackfire - I bought it when it first came out last year and have used it several times. It's a nice product and is easy to use. If you read the commentary about it at http://www.properautocare.com/blackfireusa.html then you'll know the basics of this product.
It's durability isn't as long as Klasse and Zaino. Those two are probably the most long-lasting products out there. Blackfire should last 3-4 months tops. I topped Blackfire with Pinnacle Souveran http://www.properautocare.com/pin-312.html and got about 5 months of protection.
The gloss from Blackfire is different from the two above - more carnauba-like. It's hard for a novice to tell and I know some people who have used all three above and say they can hardly tell a diff. Topping Blackfire with Souveran enhanced the slickness and reflectivity. Frankly, it's the best overall appearance I've ever seen on my car.
So, while Blackfire doesn't quite match Klasse on durability and offers a different shine, it's almost foolproof to use, reasonably affordable, cures instantly, and holds up in high heat. Overall it's nice stuff.
1. If I wash off the wax and apply the Blackfire would I need to clay the car again so that the Blackfire can properly bond and seal? Clay your car if it feels like there are surface contaminents on it. If it feels smooth as glass then you won't need to clay. My guess is that there will be areas on your car that need spot claying. Should only take a couple minutes to fix those areas. 2. Will claying the car remove or affect the 3M IHG? IHG is a glaze comprised of mostly fillers and oils. A wash with a high alkaline detergent like Dawn will remove the IHG. Blackfire is a polymer sealant product and glazes like IHG will prevent the polymers from bonding properly. So I do not recommend IHG prior to Blackfire application.
If someone has come up with an easy method of removing hard water spots, I'd think they'd already have bottled it and made millions.
But until that product comes along were stuck with the hard labor of removing hard water spots. If the vinegar trick didn't work you'll need to step up to a polish and remove them. This is where an orbital buffer comes in handy.
I have a white 2002 CRV-EX that I plan to use this on to start with, then a champagne colored 1998 Buick LeSabre, and then on my 2000 Emerald Green Accord SE. I will probably use my Collinite wax as a topper on the Dark Green Accord but just use the Blackfire on the other two cars. I guess I might as well get started claying the CRV this weekend.
1st time user of mequire #26 paste. Been using Gold class for a couple years. Upon opening can, found it to be about half full. Also found product to be somewhat dry? It seemed to be soft but somewhat grit like texture. I expected it to be creamy & more of a smooth paste like texture. Called Mequire's & they claim 1/2 full seemed right for 11 oz of product. stated can was about 12 months old and product was still good? I used it and other than it seemed somewhat on the drier side, liked it. Any comments
Hey, I'm fussy so I called properautocare.com and the tech support person indicated that they specially designed Blackfire for black and red cars. Hence the name. It is designed to show a wet look that looks superior on dark cars. That being said I'll bet it will still look great on white. White always has the advantage of being the longest lasting color and suffering the least from environmental degredation. Since it's in better shape already it should look fabulous.
By the way the tech support said that you can use a glaze like Imperial Hand Glaze first and then put on the Blackfire. It will adhere.
Over the years many waxes have come and gone for me, including Gold Class. But I still have good old #26 Hard Yellow Wax, and probably always will. That paste wax is so economical and looks so good that it will always have a place on my shelf.
I have good coverage with Meguiars #26 alone for 3-4 months in the winter (We have 4 full seasons here), and over 7 months in the summer and fall. I love the way you can add a couple of layers and really increase the depth of the shine. Acrylics that I have tried so far can't do that.
My paste cans are about 2/3 full when they come in the tin can. Barely enough to fit a pad in after the first washing. The newest one I bought last fall was plastic and was about half full. It fits a pad easily however. Haven't used it yet but initially I'm not liking the newer container as well as the older one.
Texture. Yes, it can appear somewhat grainy but it goes on smooth. If you want a hard wax try 3M Perfect-It Show car wax (also another favorite of mine) 3M is easier to remove however. But I really like the fact that you can feel the wax on the surface, and the great beading.
Both are harder to apply and remove than P21S, or if I understand correctly, Pinnacle. But it also costs less than $10.00 a can. Not 30 -- 80 dollars apiece.
I like to balance cost with appearance. Glazing and topping with the #26 really make the finish pop. I moved to 3M about 2 years ago for durability in winter weather, but using it alone was not quite as durable as I wanted. Last winter I used 2 coats of Perfect-It Show Car Wax, and topped it off with Meguiars #26. This lasted a full 6 months when the weather was snowy and cold, and the roads were constantly salted. Worst winter in 20 years. I will continue with this combination on 2 of my cars, and most of the family cars that I also work on. (My Dad prefers a good wax job to a gift that he always says he can't use.)
In summary, Meguiars #26 Hard yellow is more firm than other waxes, a little harder to apply and remove than waxes that cost twice as much, easier, or about the same as many less expensive waxes, but for the money is very reliable. If used every 90 days will give excellent performance in all weather conditions. I still like it a lot.
The only reason I am moving to Blackfire on one car is a damaged finish on my Blaze Red Mazda. I wouldn't have even been tempted otherwise.
BF looks awesome and it goes on/off very easy..However, if you are used to a slick finish like you get with a carnuba you will be disappointed. It looses slickness very quickly..like within 2 weeks!! Doesnt mean its not protecting the finish though!! I topped it with Blitz and it really looks great!!
Thanks for sharing about the tech support for BF saying that it would adhere to IHG. Please let me know if you try that. I might try it also if you like it. I was really surprised that a polymer like BF would adhere to a glazed surface. I am really looking forward to receiving my Blackfire and going to work.
I recently did the Dawn/Clay/Dawn/Swirl Remover/Meguiars' Gold Class on two of my cars.
I'm thinking I'd only need to clay my cars once a year or so, but in the meantime, how often is it safe to apply the Swirl Remover and Wax? Is once a month too often?
Everyone has a different criteria but I can tell ya that a daily driver is gonna get swirls and surface crud. Even the most expensive show cars get swirled. I went to the Blackhawk Museum in Nor Cal last week and virtually every car in their collection had swirls. Many of these cars had 5 figure paint jobs. Swirls happen.
So, I'd recommend using just the GC once a month to maintain max protection and shine. GC has a mild cleaner in it so it should remove/fill most of the annoying swirls. Save the SMR for the big detail jobs. At least that's what I do.
First time visitor here, so please pardon any redundancy or being slightly off subject. Considering the mammoth size of the vehicle I drive (full size extended cab, long bed truck with shell), a power buffer sure seems appealing. Is swirling or spider webbing the main objection? Any thoughts on random orbit buffers? Does the random orbit feature mitigate the problem or is the whole idea heresy here? I'm using M #26. Thanks.
I recently did the clay bar and Klasse treatment to my Accord, but I did it all by hand. I have an old Waxmaster RO buffer, but was still leery of using it on my red paint. With that said, I do plan on using the buffer for my mini-van, which is teal-metallic. From what I have read, one of the best buffers in auto detailing circles is the Porter-Cable 7424 and they'll run you about $135ish. What's nice about them is that you can easily find micro-fiber bonnets and lamb's wool backer pads made for this unit. I'm having no luck finding these items for my old buffer. If I were going to use a buffer, I'd definitely want to use MF bonnets.
I think the key here is claying your car first. It will remove most, if not all, of the contaminents from your paint, then they won't get caught up in the buffer pad and leave swirls.
My experience is that the most devastating thing you can do to create swirl marks is to use a machine buffer without using the clay bar first.
My Dad's vehicle, and My son's newest one have never had a buffer applied to the paint surface without using the clay bar first. Serious swirl marks are not an issue at all. Even the fine spider lines are at a minimum. There are more spider lines on my nephew's car and he doesn't use anything at all.
My son's newest one hadn't been done in over a year. Thank heaven it was garaged. We washed with Dawn, used the clay bar and then used Meguiars' #9 swirl remover followed by 3M Perfect-It Foam Polishing Pad Glaze Swirlmark Remover for Dark Cars. (The name is really too long) It was topped off with a coat of 3M Perfect-It Show Car Wax. That burgandy car had a deep wet look and high shine.
No one does a glaze like 3M. The Perfect-It machine glaze is amazing.
My personal feeling is that using a Swirl Remover monthly is over kill, and could thin out the clear coat. I use a swirl remover only on vehicles that aren't regularly waxed. I use glaze twice a year after that. Meguiars lists their Fine cut cleaner on a scale of 5 out of 10. The swirl remover is a 3 out of 10. Glazes are less than that.
Gold class does keep a good condition for about 6 weeks, so if you want to wax more often it is a good choice.
I prefer at least 3 months so I use Perfect-It Show Car Paste followed a week later by Meguiars' #26. Then I reapply #26 3 months later by hand. This works very well.
Sorry, I wasn't quite clear. I have ordered Blackfire now, but since I just glazed and waxed, I won't be putting it on until this fall. I want the wax to wear down a bit naturally before I try Blackfire.
I will also be careful about the type of glaze I use. 3M Perfect-It Glaze says the following on the 3M Internet site.
Designed for dark colored vehicles. Quickly removes light surface imperfections, swirl marks, light oxidation or minor stains, and produces a deep rich, swirl-free finish. Excellent for hand polishing applications. Clear coat safe. No wax or silicone.
Meguiars #9 also has similar criteria, and adds that after using it the surface is paintable.
The Blurb for the Imperial Hand Glaze is different.
A unique combination of paint glossifiers provides a brilliant, deep, wet look show car finish.
Meguairs #7 Show Car Glaze adds special paint nourishing oils according to the bottle.
I just clayed, glazed (IHG), and waxed my Accord about a few weeks ago so I will probably do my wife's 2002 CRV first. However, I have a question about the Accord. If I dawn wash the Accord I know it will strip the carnuba wax but will it have any impact on the Imperial Hand Glaze? If the answer is no, would claying the car again have any impact on the IHG? If neither the dawn or claying would strip the IHG I may go ahead and use the Blackfire on the Accord as well. I think I will also call 3M and Blackfire tech support for their opinion as well.
Dawn will remove the IHG. Remember that glazes are kinda like car makeup, mostly oils and fillers designed to bring out a high gloss. The strong alkaline properties of Dawn will remove all that stuff along with most all the carnauba.
So consider a strong Dawn wash a stripping of carnauba and glaze. A good idea if you want to go to Blackfire.
CMA tech support indicated that the Blackfire would definitely bond to 3M IHG without a problem. However, they saw no reason to reapply IHG if I was going to strip it by claying the car first. I asked the guy about the rumored dust attraction and reduction of slickness and he said they had not been able to confirm those problems. Of course I did not expect him to say "yeah it attracts dust like crazy" but he did say that he had not personally seen any problem on his dark blue Audi and that he only had one coat of the protectant on his car. I plan to use at least 2-3 coats of protectant and may apply it until I see no increased visual benefits. I am very curious to see if this is as easy to apply and remove as everyone indicates. Not being an expert detailer I plan to print my objective opinion as a newbie detailer for anyone that cares.
When I was talking to the CMA tech rep about the BlackFire I asked him if he applied his by hand or machine. Of course he used a PC like so many autopians and detail fanatics. I mentioned that I had a Chamberlain Waxmaster that I had never used and was considering it to apply the BF polish. He said that my Waxmaster was primarily for buffing since it would only get 2400/minute. Do I really need a faster machine to properly apply polish? I certainly don't think I need a machine to buff the BF if it is as easy to use as I have been led to believe.
While I have not tried my orbital to apply/remove BFire, I'd imagine it would work fine. It's not so much the orbiting speed as its the ability of the machine to apply an even, thin coat and work it into the paint.
I use a PC with the BFire Polish and I'm always amazed how easily it spreads. I remove it by hand using microfiber towels. I apply the BFire Protectant by hand using a microfiber applicator but I think a PC or orbital would apply Protectant just fine. Again, removal is by hand with a microfiber.
Last time I used BFire on my car I applied two coats of Polish and four coats of Protectant.
of Blackfire compared to Klasse and another unmentioned product regarding ease of application and durability for the novice detailer? I believe that I would be satisfied with any of these (I am pretty damn well satisfied with IHG and a couple of coats of Collinite so far) as far as appearance goes (although I really think the Blackfire will look best on my Emerald Green Accord) but I expect the deciding factor in my longterm use will be ease and time spent on the application.
I really respect your opinions - both here and on autopia - because you seem to have tried many products objectively without bias to snob appeal or cost but primarily with quality and value. You also seem to understand that different products are better for different people base upon specific individual criteria. Thanks in advance.
I don't have any experience with Blackfire, but I don't think it could be any easier to apply than Klasse. Klasse goes on easily and wipes off easily. Best of all, you can apply it to the black rubber and plastic trim without leaving any white residue.
I've done both our cars ('02 Steel Blue BMW & '98 Red Volvo wagon). The new car looks good as expected, but I was impressed with how the Klasse brought back the color of the Volvo despite my lack of waxing in the past and no clay bar.
First, thanks much for the compliments. One thing I always try to do is listen to what people are asking and tailor my comments to their needs instead of trying to convince them of my personal choices. I guess this comes from having a much broader experience and base of knowledge than most folks regarding this subject.
OK, so you're asking Blackfire vs. Klasse. vs Unmentionable Brand. First off, I think you are looking at the cream of the crop in terms of polymer sealants on the market. Any of them will outlast even the best carnaubas or store bought products and they will outshine them as well. I really don't think there's a bad choice in the bunch and there's only a few degrees of separation between them.
I've described my opinion of Blackfire in previous posts. While it may not have the durability and high gloss of the other two, it offers plenty of benefits and is priced reasonably. If I weigh all the benefits equally then Blackfire is a very compelling choice.
Klasse is probably a little more durable and offers a little higher gloss than BFire. The big downside of the Klasse system is its challenging application & removal process. The All In One (AIO) product is a fine one-step but to get the max benefit of Klasse you've also got to use Sealant Glaze (SG) and it's clear SG is a real PITA to use. There's a poster on Autopia who created a detailed description of Klasse usage and it's quite complex. I think that alone will turn off some people. But I know others who seem to thrive on the challenge and get great results from Klasse. So it's sorta up to your personality as to whether you'll like it or not.
I'm always a little hesitant to discuss the final brand in here; too many firefights in the past over it. I will say that it is nice stuff, leaves a very glossy finish, lasts a long time, and is the product currently on my car. However it does pose application challenges and requires paint to be in almost perfect condition - prep is everything with this stuff. It's also designed to work as a system so users of this particular brand are best off using their stuff exclusively and tossing out whatever brands they have stockpiled previously. In other words, to get the max benefit from this product you have to commit totally to the system and the product line. That's fine for some but unreasonable for others.
I hope this answers your questions. Lemme know if I can be of further help.
I'm always a little hesitant to discuss the final brand in here; too many firefights in the past over it. I will say that it is nice stuff, leaves a very glossy finish, lasts a long time, and is the product currently on my car.
My mother has a 1998 Buick LeSabre (champagne color) that has NEVER been waxed, washed about every other month (by hand in the summer and car wash during cold weather) and the wheels have never been cleaned. It is garage kept and pretty low mileage and is not really in too bad of condition considering.
1. Planning on doing the interior first which should not be a problem since it is in really good shape. Using 303 on just about everything except the glass and plastic.
2. Washing with Dawn and my Big Blue Towel (man I love those towels).
3. Claying with the Erazer (used this on my Accord and was amazed at how easy it was to use).
Not planning on doing anything for swirl marks (hopefully there won't be too many on the light color that show up). If it is really bad I guess I may have to go get some 3M SMR.
4. Polishing with Blackfire and I guess I will use the Koala terry cloth towels that came with my Blackfire but was wondering if they will be as easy to use as some MF detailing towels for buffing. Will know soon.
5. Two coats of Blackfire protectant.
6. Polish the wheels and tires with some more 303.
7. Go home and get in the jacuzzi.
I am hoping that I can do this in less than 4 hours but with my inexperience it will probably take 5 hours. It is only supposed to be around 90 degrees tomorrow and is always big time humid here. Maybe it will only be around 88 in the garage. LOL! I guess I will find out if the Blackfire claim that humidity doesn't affect the ease of application is true or not. This is one of the main reasons I went with BF over Klasse.
Bret is becoming the defacto "sage" on the car care topics...no matter what his detractors might say, he has tried most, if not all of the products he talks about. While his view is still subjective...so is yours and mine. As I said before - he's a pretty decent guy, and his knowledge on this subject is second to none, IMHO.
pj, fastdriver - Let's be careful so we don't get Bret's head so large that he won't be able to get in or out of his car!
But seriously, I have to agree. We've been on this board and the "other" for a couple of years, and the only person who comes close to Bret's knowledge and ability to communicate it objectively is Mr. Detailer.
It's refreshing to read factual comments and not see the flaming any longer. Let's all pat ourselves on our collective backs!
I'll be working on 2 cars. My Dads, and another top coat of wax on my own. I'm anxious to see how the P21S works out.
Titan
Let us know your results. After looking at my package is seems that at least on the polishing level, the use of a good buffer would improve the appearance even more. Will you be doing yours by hand. 2 coats of the protectant seems like a good idea.
Concerning Brett
Post 2090 said "While his view is still subjective..."
It was actually his objectivity in discussing the strengths and weaknesses of Klasse, unmentionable, and Blackfire that pushed my decision to Blackfire for my vehicle that needs a stronger than Carnuba protection in winter. He made a decision that I had agonized over for a year easier for me.
It looks like all my hard work and years of payola is coming to fruition.
Now that the head rush is over I can finally go back to NuFinish. Yaaaayyyyyy!!!!!
Seriously, thanks to all for the compliments. I really appreciate them. Regardless of what's happened in the past I still try hard to offer advice that's focused on the car owner and their particular needs. Yeah, its still my opinion but I try to support it with experience and knowledge.
I think one of the big benefits to Town Hall members is that Mr. D and I use different products and look at solutions from our own unique perspectives. That way others can get a clearer idea of what to do and what to use. Combine that with everyone else's viewpoint and members get some really good advice from all of us.
I don't know if it takes a village to raise a child, but I do know that I'm not detailing everyone's car all by myself! The village needs your help and input as much as mine.
I'm gonna be doing so heavy detailing this weekend. My Pro (black) and my buddy's Subaru TS Wagon (dark blue).
I'm only going to be using Mother's 3-step wax system since I've already bought it and the gf would kill me if I went out and bought more products.
In terms of the sealer/glaze (step 2), can you layer it and is there any benefit? From what I've read, I would think not because the paint can only absorb so much glaze, right?
Wish I had a PC so I could get rid of my swirls that I made when I was a detailing newb...oh well. All in good time.
The general consensus is that you cannot layer glazes. Glazes are mostly fillers and oils designed to hide minor swirls and leaves a glossy finish. But there are usually enough solvents and carrier agents in them to remove a previous coat if you attempt to apply a second one. You might want to try it on a small area to see results. Or give Mothers a call at (714) 891-3364 before 5PM PST and ask.
Sorry to sound like a nag, but you need to do a clay bar if it does not feel absolutely mirror smooth. The only objection I had about Mothers clay bar system was the cost at my local store. It's a great product otherwise. Hopefully the price has gone down. Oh, yeah, throw away the cleaner wax. Your planned method is much better.
Any scratch or unneeded swirls will probably show up easily on those dark colors.
Phase 1 Pre Wax Cleaner is going to have some abrasive in it. The Mothers Internet site describing this product says "Pre-Wax Cleaner polishes out minor flaws and smooths the paint surface." It could pick up the existing contaminants on the surface, and scratch them IMO.
I assume, since you are a regular on this site, that like the rest of us you are a little OCD when it comes to car care. Spare yourself the agony. Wash with Dawn and clay bar first. With 2 of you the complete job should go pretty fast.
Polishing should only be needed once. If it doesn't look good after polishing once you would need something stronger like Meguiars Swirl Remover #9. Extra layers of polish won't do any good on a carnauba system like Mothers.
Extra Layers of the Wax increases depth and durability. I generally use 3.
Mothers are good products, I'm sure you'll like the shine. Just make sure to apply the #3 wax again if you notice a reduction in beading.
If you have any rubber trim that the wax might hit, I would advise putting on a trim protectant first. It will leave a white stain if not protected.
Also understand that the phrase Pure Carnauba means that it contains pure Carnauba not that it is 100% Carnauba.
I neglected to mention clay on purpose. I am debating doing it only because the bars here are bloody expensive. I will probably break down and get it though!
I've actually done the 3-step system once before. Acutally that's another question I need to clarify. How often should that step 1 be done? I was under the impression that it was only needed once or twice a year....not 3-4 a year. Since that step 1 is abrasive, I would think minimizing this action would be best. Any ideas?
BTW, both cars are just about a year old, so I'm not too worried about oxidation.
It only should be used when you plan to do a full 3-step detail. That's probably once or twice per year.
The Step 3 will last around 90 days. If you can apply a coat of Step 3 every two months or so then the paint will always be protected and rarely need polishing. It's a good idea to strip off old wax and built up contaminents at least once a year so the Step 1 comes into play there. Clay the car too when you use Step 1 to start off with the best possible surface.
So it sounds like I'll be doing: 1)wash w/ dawn 2)clay 3)wash to get rid of clay residue (is this step absolutely required?) 4)step 1-pre-wax cleaner 5)step 2-glaze and sealer 6)step 3-carnauba wax (no cleaners). 7)Tire dressing
Gonna take a while, but definitely worth it. Hopefully I can also hit the engine bay and the interior again. Thanks Bret!
BTW, what's with your multiple personality avatars on Autopia? I liked the messiah w/ the guns personally
Just use liberal amounts of your chosen lubricant so clay won't stick. If it does stick, take a clean terry towel and rub -- hard. You should see the clay residue easily on those dark colors. The clay will come off.
Meguiars was the least expensive clay in my area. Remember that if put in a plastic bag it can be used repeatedly unless you drop it. As long as a clean surface comes up when you fold the dirty part in it's still useable. I've used one bar over 3 times and it's still white.
I agree with Brett that you probably should do a full 3 step once a year, probably in the spring. But on the other one in the fall, since it's a new vehicle you can probably get away with just polishing and waxing.
Personally I just polish and wax most of the time after using the clay bar. I use the swirl remover when haze or fine scratches appear that the polish doesn't take care of any more.
I *loved* the Action Messiah avatar. I found it on another website and had to have it. But I received PM's from folks stating they were offended by it so in order to keep the peace, I replaced it.
The avatars from The Onion were great but I like to change them now and then.
Comments
I've used Nu-finish and I'm not a fan. Way too much residue and it stains really, really bad.
While both cars look great, THEY STILL HAVE SWIRL MARKS! The Scratch-X was very strong (It seemed to create a darker shade of blue on my accord??!), but it didn't make a difference at all with the Swirl Marks.
Is my only option now to take it to have the cars machine buffed?
When I bought an older used car 2 years ago I had to use the fine cut cleaner to remove rain spotting. Swirl Remover and Kitts Scratch remover didn't do anything. I had to move up a level to get a truly clean surface. It seemed to have left a dull finish but the instructions said to follow up with Swirl Mark Remover #9. It looked good then and has maintained itself well. It wasn't perfect but it looked a heck of a lot better. I haven't needed to use the Fine Cut Cleaner since.
The Meguiars tech support said that while the Fine Cut Cleaner can be used with an orbital buffer that it is really designed to be actuated with a rotary buffer. The higher speeds increase the polishing capability. This to me would mean a professional job since I won't touch a rotary buffer.
I am leaning toward the Blackfire since you do not have to wait between applications of the protectant and because the heat and humidity do not impact the ease of application. Also thought it might look good on my Dark Green Accord after the current wax job disappears.
One thing I was wondering is does the Blackfire have the longevity of Klasse? If there is no significant difference in durability I plan to go for it.
On the cars with good finishes I am more than happy with the 3M Perfect-It Show car wax or Meguiars, although I am tempted to try P21S paste since it seemed to be the best of the Carnaubas according to thewaxtest.org original survey.
1. If I wash off the wax and apply the Blackfire would I need to clay the car again so that the Blackfire can properly bond and seal?
2. Will claying the car remove or affect the 3M IHG?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Blackfire - I bought it when it first came out last year and have used it several times. It's a nice product and is easy to use. If you read the commentary about it at http://www.properautocare.com/blackfireusa.html then you'll know the basics of this product.
It's durability isn't as long as Klasse and Zaino. Those two are probably the most long-lasting products out there. Blackfire should last 3-4 months tops. I topped Blackfire with Pinnacle Souveran http://www.properautocare.com/pin-312.html and got about 5 months of protection.
The gloss from Blackfire is different from the two above - more carnauba-like. It's hard for a novice to tell and I know some people who have used all three above and say they can hardly tell a diff. Topping Blackfire with Souveran enhanced the slickness and reflectivity. Frankly, it's the best overall appearance I've ever seen on my car.
So, while Blackfire doesn't quite match Klasse on durability and offers a different shine, it's almost foolproof to use, reasonably affordable, cures instantly, and holds up in high heat. Overall it's nice stuff.
Clay your car if it feels like there are surface contaminents on it. If it feels smooth as glass then you won't need to clay. My guess is that there will be areas on your car that need spot claying. Should only take a couple minutes to fix those areas.
2. Will claying the car remove or affect the 3M IHG?
IHG is a glaze comprised of mostly fillers and oils. A wash with a high alkaline detergent like Dawn will remove the IHG. Blackfire is a polymer sealant product and glazes like IHG will prevent the polymers from bonding properly. So I do not recommend IHG prior to Blackfire application.
But until that product comes along were stuck with the hard labor of removing hard water spots. If the vinegar trick didn't work you'll need to step up to a polish and remove them. This is where an orbital buffer comes in handy.
Sorry, wish I had better news for ya.
- - Bret - -
By the way the tech support said that you can use a glaze like Imperial Hand Glaze first and then put on the Blackfire. It will adhere.
I have good coverage with Meguiars #26 alone for 3-4 months in the winter (We have 4 full seasons here), and over 7 months in the summer and fall. I love the way you can add a couple of layers and really increase the depth of the shine. Acrylics that I have tried so far can't do that.
My paste cans are about 2/3 full when they come in the tin can. Barely enough to fit a pad in after the first washing. The newest one I bought last fall was plastic and was about half full. It fits a pad easily however. Haven't used it yet but initially I'm not liking the newer container as well as the older one.
Texture. Yes, it can appear somewhat grainy but it goes on smooth. If you want a hard wax try 3M Perfect-It Show car wax (also another favorite of mine) 3M is easier to remove however. But I really like the fact that you can feel the wax on the surface, and the great beading.
Both are harder to apply and remove than P21S, or if I understand correctly, Pinnacle. But it also costs less than $10.00 a can. Not 30 -- 80 dollars apiece.
I like to balance cost with appearance. Glazing and topping with the #26 really make the finish pop. I moved to 3M about 2 years ago for durability in winter weather, but using it alone was not quite as durable as I wanted. Last winter I used 2 coats of Perfect-It Show Car Wax, and topped it off with Meguiars #26. This lasted a full 6 months when the weather was snowy and cold, and the roads were constantly salted. Worst winter in 20 years. I will continue with this combination on 2 of my cars, and most of the family cars that I also work on. (My Dad prefers a good wax job to a gift that he always says he can't use.)
In summary, Meguiars #26 Hard yellow is more firm than other waxes, a little harder to apply and remove than waxes that cost twice as much, easier, or about the same as many less expensive waxes, but for the money is very reliable. If used every 90 days will give excellent performance in all weather conditions. I still like it a lot.
The only reason I am moving to Blackfire on one car is a damaged finish on my Blaze Red Mazda. I wouldn't have even been tempted otherwise.
I'm thinking I'd only need to clay my cars once a year or so, but in the meantime, how often is it safe to apply the Swirl Remover and Wax? Is once a month too often?
Everyone has a different criteria but I can tell ya that a daily driver is gonna get swirls and surface crud. Even the most expensive show cars get swirled. I went to the Blackhawk Museum in Nor Cal last week and virtually every car in their collection had swirls. Many of these cars had 5 figure paint jobs. Swirls happen.
So, I'd recommend using just the GC once a month to maintain max protection and shine. GC has a mild cleaner in it so it should remove/fill most of the annoying swirls. Save the SMR for the big detail jobs. At least that's what I do.
Happy waxing.
-David
I think the key here is claying your car first. It will remove most, if not all, of the contaminents from your paint, then they won't get caught up in the buffer pad and leave swirls.
My Dad's vehicle, and My son's newest one have never had a buffer applied to the paint surface without using the clay bar first. Serious swirl marks are not an issue at all. Even the fine spider lines are at a minimum. There are more spider lines on my nephew's car and he doesn't use anything at all.
My son's newest one hadn't been done in over a year. Thank heaven it was garaged. We washed with Dawn, used the clay bar and then used Meguiars' #9 swirl remover followed by 3M Perfect-It Foam Polishing Pad Glaze Swirlmark Remover for Dark Cars. (The name is really too long) It was topped off with a coat of 3M Perfect-It Show Car Wax. That burgandy car had a deep wet look and high shine.
No one does a glaze like 3M. The Perfect-It machine glaze is amazing.
My personal feeling is that using a Swirl Remover monthly is over kill, and could thin out the clear coat. I use a swirl remover only on vehicles that aren't regularly waxed. I use glaze twice a year after that. Meguiars lists their Fine cut cleaner on a scale of 5 out of 10. The swirl remover is a 3 out of 10. Glazes are less than that.
Gold class does keep a good condition for about 6 weeks, so if you want to wax more often it is a good choice.
I prefer at least 3 months so I use Perfect-It Show Car Paste followed a week later by Meguiars' #26. Then I reapply #26 3 months later by hand. This works very well.
Good luck on whatever you decide.
I will also be careful about the type of glaze I use. 3M Perfect-It Glaze says the following on the 3M Internet site.
Designed for dark colored vehicles. Quickly removes light surface imperfections, swirl marks, light oxidation or minor stains, and produces a deep rich, swirl-free finish. Excellent for hand polishing applications. Clear coat safe. No wax or silicone.
Meguiars #9 also has similar criteria, and adds that after using it the surface is paintable.
The Blurb for the Imperial Hand Glaze is different.
A unique combination of paint glossifiers provides a brilliant, deep, wet look show car finish.
Meguairs #7 Show Car Glaze adds special paint nourishing oils according to the bottle.
I will be using one of the first two types.
So consider a strong Dawn wash a stripping of carnauba and glaze. A good idea if you want to go to Blackfire.
Let us know what 3M and CMA tell you.
Of course I did not expect him to say "yeah it attracts dust like crazy" but he did say that he had not personally seen any problem on his dark blue Audi and that he only had one coat of the protectant on his car. I plan to use at least 2-3 coats of protectant and may apply it until I see no increased visual benefits. I am very curious to see if this is as easy to apply and remove as everyone indicates. Not being an expert detailer I plan to print my objective opinion as a newbie detailer for anyone that cares.
I use a PC with the BFire Polish and I'm always amazed how easily it spreads. I remove it by hand using microfiber towels. I apply the BFire Protectant by hand using a microfiber applicator but I think a PC or orbital would apply Protectant just fine. Again, removal is by hand with a microfiber.
Last time I used BFire on my car I applied two coats of Polish and four coats of Protectant.
I really respect your opinions - both here and on autopia - because you seem to have tried many products objectively without bias to snob appeal or cost but primarily with quality and value. You also seem to understand that different products are better for different people base upon specific individual criteria. Thanks in advance.
I've done both our cars ('02 Steel Blue BMW & '98 Red Volvo wagon). The new car looks good as expected, but I was impressed with how the Klasse brought back the color of the Volvo despite my lack of waxing in the past and no clay bar.
I don't think you'll go wrong with Klasse.
-murray
OK, so you're asking Blackfire vs. Klasse. vs Unmentionable Brand. First off, I think you are looking at the cream of the crop in terms of polymer sealants on the market. Any of them will outlast even the best carnaubas or store bought products and they will outshine them as well. I really don't think there's a bad choice in the bunch and there's only a few degrees of separation between them.
I've described my opinion of Blackfire in previous posts. While it may not have the durability and high gloss of the other two, it offers plenty of benefits and is priced reasonably. If I weigh all the benefits equally then Blackfire is a very compelling choice.
Klasse is probably a little more durable and offers a little higher gloss than BFire. The big downside of the Klasse system is its challenging application & removal process. The All In One (AIO) product is a fine one-step but to get the max benefit of Klasse you've also got to use Sealant Glaze (SG) and it's clear SG is a real PITA to use. There's a poster on Autopia who created a detailed description of Klasse usage and it's quite complex. I think that alone will turn off some people. But I know others who seem to thrive on the challenge and get great results from Klasse. So it's sorta up to your personality as to whether you'll like it or not.
I'm always a little hesitant to discuss the final brand in here; too many firefights in the past over it. I will say that it is nice stuff, leaves a very glossy finish, lasts a long time, and is the product currently on my car. However it does pose application challenges and requires paint to be in almost perfect condition - prep is everything with this stuff. It's also designed to work as a system so users of this particular brand are best off using their stuff exclusively and tossing out whatever brands they have stockpiled previously. In other words, to get the max benefit from this product you have to commit totally to the system and the product line. That's fine for some but unreasonable for others.
I hope this answers your questions. Lemme know if I can be of further help.
Somebody pinch me, I must be dreaming ;>)
LOL... I was thinking the SAME thing, but figured that there were enough wildfires in the country right now to comment! ;-))
fastdriver
1. Planning on doing the interior first which should not be a problem since it is in really good shape. Using 303 on just about everything except the glass and plastic.
2. Washing with Dawn and my Big Blue Towel (man I love those towels).
3. Claying with the Erazer (used this on my Accord and was amazed at how easy it was to use).
Not planning on doing anything for swirl marks (hopefully there won't be too many on the light color that show up). If it is really bad I guess I may have to go get some 3M SMR.
4. Polishing with Blackfire and I guess I will use the Koala terry cloth towels that came with my Blackfire but was wondering if they will be as easy to use as some MF detailing towels for buffing. Will know soon.
5. Two coats of Blackfire protectant.
6. Polish the wheels and tires with some more 303.
7. Go home and get in the jacuzzi.
I am hoping that I can do this in less than 4 hours but with my inexperience it will probably take 5 hours. It is only supposed to be around 90 degrees tomorrow and is always big time humid here. Maybe it will only be around 88 in the garage. LOL! I guess I will find out if the Blackfire claim that humidity doesn't affect the ease of application is true or not. This is one of the main reasons I went with BF over Klasse.
But seriously, I have to agree. We've been on this board and the "other" for a couple of years, and the only person who comes close to Bret's knowledge and ability to communicate it objectively is Mr. Detailer.
It's refreshing to read factual comments and not see the flaming any longer. Let's all pat ourselves on our collective backs!
Titan
Let us know your results. After looking at my package is seems that at least on the polishing level, the use of a good buffer would improve the appearance even more. Will you be doing yours by hand. 2 coats of the protectant seems like a good idea.
Concerning Brett
Post 2090 said "While his view is still subjective..."
It was actually his objectivity in discussing the strengths and weaknesses of Klasse, unmentionable, and Blackfire that pushed my decision to Blackfire for my vehicle that needs a stronger than Carnuba protection in winter. He made a decision that I had agonized over for a year easier for me.
Now that the head rush is over I can finally go back to NuFinish. Yaaaayyyyyy!!!!!
Seriously, thanks to all for the compliments. I really appreciate them. Regardless of what's happened in the past I still try hard to offer advice that's focused on the car owner and their particular needs. Yeah, its still my opinion but I try to support it with experience and knowledge.
I think one of the big benefits to Town Hall members is that Mr. D and I use different products and look at solutions from our own unique perspectives. That way others can get a clearer idea of what to do and what to use. Combine that with everyone else's viewpoint and members get some really good advice from all of us.
I don't know if it takes a village to raise a child, but I do know that I'm not detailing everyone's car all by myself! The village needs your help and input as much as mine.
Yours in finely detailed cars, I remain...
I'm only going to be using Mother's 3-step wax system since I've already bought it and the gf would kill me if I went out and bought more products.
In terms of the sealer/glaze (step 2), can you layer it and is there any benefit? From what I've read, I would think not because the paint can only absorb so much glaze, right?
Wish I had a PC so I could get rid of my swirls that I made when I was a detailing newb...oh well. All in good time.
Thanks guys for all the helpful tips!
Have fun detailing! :-)
Any scratch or unneeded swirls will probably show up easily on those dark colors.
Phase 1 Pre Wax Cleaner is going to have some abrasive in it. The Mothers Internet site describing this product says "Pre-Wax Cleaner polishes out minor flaws and smooths the paint surface." It could pick up the existing contaminants on the surface, and scratch them IMO.
I assume, since you are a regular on this site, that like the rest of us you are a little OCD when it comes to car care. Spare yourself the agony. Wash with Dawn and clay bar first. With 2 of you the complete job should go pretty fast.
Polishing should only be needed once. If it doesn't look good after polishing once you would need something stronger like Meguiars Swirl Remover #9. Extra layers of polish won't do any good on a carnauba system like Mothers.
Extra Layers of the Wax increases depth and durability. I generally use 3.
Mothers are good products, I'm sure you'll like the shine. Just make sure to apply the #3 wax again if you notice a reduction in beading.
If you have any rubber trim that the wax might hit, I would advise putting on a trim protectant first. It will leave a white stain if not protected.
Also understand that the phrase Pure Carnauba means that it contains pure Carnauba not that it is 100% Carnauba.
Happy detailing.
I've actually done the 3-step system once before. Acutally that's another question I need to clarify. How often should that step 1 be done? I was under the impression that it was only needed once or twice a year....not 3-4 a year. Since that step 1 is abrasive, I would think minimizing this action would be best. Any ideas?
BTW, both cars are just about a year old, so I'm not too worried about oxidation.
Thanks again guys!
The Step 3 will last around 90 days. If you can apply a coat of Step 3 every two months or so then the paint will always be protected and rarely need polishing. It's a good idea to strip off old wax and built up contaminents at least once a year so the Step 1 comes into play there. Clay the car too when you use Step 1 to start off with the best possible surface.
1)wash w/ dawn
2)clay
3)wash to get rid of clay residue (is this step absolutely required?)
4)step 1-pre-wax cleaner
5)step 2-glaze and sealer
6)step 3-carnauba wax (no cleaners).
7)Tire dressing
Gonna take a while, but definitely worth it. Hopefully I can also hit the engine bay and the interior again. Thanks Bret!
BTW, what's with your multiple personality avatars on Autopia? I liked the messiah w/ the guns personally
Meguiars was the least expensive clay in my area. Remember that if put in a plastic bag it can be used repeatedly unless you drop it. As long as a clean surface comes up when you fold the dirty part in it's still useable. I've used one bar over 3 times and it's still white.
I agree with Brett that you probably should do a full 3 step once a year, probably in the spring. But on the other one in the fall, since it's a new vehicle you can probably get away with just polishing and waxing.
Personally I just polish and wax most of the time after using the clay bar. I use the swirl remover when haze or fine scratches appear that the polish doesn't take care of any more.
Looks like you'll have a full day.
The avatars from The Onion were great but I like to change them now and then.