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Store Bought Waxes Part II (No Zaino Posts)
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I've used Nu-finish and I'm not a fan. Way too much residue and it stains really, really bad.
While both cars look great, THEY STILL HAVE SWIRL MARKS! The Scratch-X was very strong (It seemed to create a darker shade of blue on my accord??!), but it didn't make a difference at all with the Swirl Marks.
Is my only option now to take it to have the cars machine buffed?
When I bought an older used car 2 years ago I had to use the fine cut cleaner to remove rain spotting. Swirl Remover and Kitts Scratch remover didn't do anything. I had to move up a level to get a truly clean surface. It seemed to have left a dull finish but the instructions said to follow up with Swirl Mark Remover #9. It looked good then and has maintained itself well. It wasn't perfect but it looked a heck of a lot better. I haven't needed to use the Fine Cut Cleaner since.
The Meguiars tech support said that while the Fine Cut Cleaner can be used with an orbital buffer that it is really designed to be actuated with a rotary buffer. The higher speeds increase the polishing capability. This to me would mean a professional job since I won't touch a rotary buffer.
I am leaning toward the Blackfire since you do not have to wait between applications of the protectant and because the heat and humidity do not impact the ease of application. Also thought it might look good on my Dark Green Accord after the current wax job disappears.
One thing I was wondering is does the Blackfire have the longevity of Klasse? If there is no significant difference in durability I plan to go for it.
On the cars with good finishes I am more than happy with the 3M Perfect-It Show car wax or Meguiars, although I am tempted to try P21S paste since it seemed to be the best of the Carnaubas according to thewaxtest.org original survey.
1. If I wash off the wax and apply the Blackfire would I need to clay the car again so that the Blackfire can properly bond and seal?
2. Will claying the car remove or affect the 3M IHG?
Thanks in advance for your input.
Blackfire - I bought it when it first came out last year and have used it several times. It's a nice product and is easy to use. If you read the commentary about it at http://www.properautocare.com/blackfireusa.html then you'll know the basics of this product.
It's durability isn't as long as Klasse and Zaino. Those two are probably the most long-lasting products out there. Blackfire should last 3-4 months tops. I topped Blackfire with Pinnacle Souveran http://www.properautocare.com/pin-312.html and got about 5 months of protection.
The gloss from Blackfire is different from the two above - more carnauba-like. It's hard for a novice to tell and I know some people who have used all three above and say they can hardly tell a diff. Topping Blackfire with Souveran enhanced the slickness and reflectivity. Frankly, it's the best overall appearance I've ever seen on my car.
So, while Blackfire doesn't quite match Klasse on durability and offers a different shine, it's almost foolproof to use, reasonably affordable, cures instantly, and holds up in high heat. Overall it's nice stuff.
Clay your car if it feels like there are surface contaminents on it. If it feels smooth as glass then you won't need to clay. My guess is that there will be areas on your car that need spot claying. Should only take a couple minutes to fix those areas.
2. Will claying the car remove or affect the 3M IHG?
IHG is a glaze comprised of mostly fillers and oils. A wash with a high alkaline detergent like Dawn will remove the IHG. Blackfire is a polymer sealant product and glazes like IHG will prevent the polymers from bonding properly. So I do not recommend IHG prior to Blackfire application.
But until that product comes along were stuck with the hard labor of removing hard water spots. If the vinegar trick didn't work you'll need to step up to a polish and remove them. This is where an orbital buffer comes in handy.
Sorry, wish I had better news for ya.
- - Bret - -
By the way the tech support said that you can use a glaze like Imperial Hand Glaze first and then put on the Blackfire. It will adhere.
I have good coverage with Meguiars #26 alone for 3-4 months in the winter (We have 4 full seasons here), and over 7 months in the summer and fall. I love the way you can add a couple of layers and really increase the depth of the shine. Acrylics that I have tried so far can't do that.
My paste cans are about 2/3 full when they come in the tin can. Barely enough to fit a pad in after the first washing. The newest one I bought last fall was plastic and was about half full. It fits a pad easily however. Haven't used it yet but initially I'm not liking the newer container as well as the older one.
Texture. Yes, it can appear somewhat grainy but it goes on smooth. If you want a hard wax try 3M Perfect-It Show car wax (also another favorite of mine) 3M is easier to remove however. But I really like the fact that you can feel the wax on the surface, and the great beading.
Both are harder to apply and remove than P21S, or if I understand correctly, Pinnacle. But it also costs less than $10.00 a can. Not 30 -- 80 dollars apiece.
I like to balance cost with appearance. Glazing and topping with the #26 really make the finish pop. I moved to 3M about 2 years ago for durability in winter weather, but using it alone was not quite as durable as I wanted. Last winter I used 2 coats of Perfect-It Show Car Wax, and topped it off with Meguiars #26. This lasted a full 6 months when the weather was snowy and cold, and the roads were constantly salted. Worst winter in 20 years. I will continue with this combination on 2 of my cars, and most of the family cars that I also work on. (My Dad prefers a good wax job to a gift that he always says he can't use.)
In summary, Meguiars #26 Hard yellow is more firm than other waxes, a little harder to apply and remove than waxes that cost twice as much, easier, or about the same as many less expensive waxes, but for the money is very reliable. If used every 90 days will give excellent performance in all weather conditions. I still like it a lot.
The only reason I am moving to Blackfire on one car is a damaged finish on my Blaze Red Mazda. I wouldn't have even been tempted otherwise.
I'm thinking I'd only need to clay my cars once a year or so, but in the meantime, how often is it safe to apply the Swirl Remover and Wax? Is once a month too often?
Everyone has a different criteria but I can tell ya that a daily driver is gonna get swirls and surface crud. Even the most expensive show cars get swirled. I went to the Blackhawk Museum in Nor Cal last week and virtually every car in their collection had swirls. Many of these cars had 5 figure paint jobs. Swirls happen.
So, I'd recommend using just the GC once a month to maintain max protection and shine. GC has a mild cleaner in it so it should remove/fill most of the annoying swirls. Save the SMR for the big detail jobs. At least that's what I do.
Happy waxing.
-David
I think the key here is claying your car first. It will remove most, if not all, of the contaminents from your paint, then they won't get caught up in the buffer pad and leave swirls.
My Dad's vehicle, and My son's newest one have never had a buffer applied to the paint surface without using the clay bar first. Serious swirl marks are not an issue at all. Even the fine spider lines are at a minimum. There are more spider lines on my nephew's car and he doesn't use anything at all.
My son's newest one hadn't been done in over a year. Thank heaven it was garaged. We washed with Dawn, used the clay bar and then used Meguiars' #9 swirl remover followed by 3M Perfect-It Foam Polishing Pad Glaze Swirlmark Remover for Dark Cars. (The name is really too long) It was topped off with a coat of 3M Perfect-It Show Car Wax. That burgandy car had a deep wet look and high shine.
No one does a glaze like 3M. The Perfect-It machine glaze is amazing.
My personal feeling is that using a Swirl Remover monthly is over kill, and could thin out the clear coat. I use a swirl remover only on vehicles that aren't regularly waxed. I use glaze twice a year after that. Meguiars lists their Fine cut cleaner on a scale of 5 out of 10. The swirl remover is a 3 out of 10. Glazes are less than that.
Gold class does keep a good condition for about 6 weeks, so if you want to wax more often it is a good choice.
I prefer at least 3 months so I use Perfect-It Show Car Paste followed a week later by Meguiars' #26. Then I reapply #26 3 months later by hand. This works very well.
Good luck on whatever you decide.
I will also be careful about the type of glaze I use. 3M Perfect-It Glaze says the following on the 3M Internet site.
Designed for dark colored vehicles. Quickly removes light surface imperfections, swirl marks, light oxidation or minor stains, and produces a deep rich, swirl-free finish. Excellent for hand polishing applications. Clear coat safe. No wax or silicone.
Meguiars #9 also has similar criteria, and adds that after using it the surface is paintable.
The Blurb for the Imperial Hand Glaze is different.
A unique combination of paint glossifiers provides a brilliant, deep, wet look show car finish.
Meguairs #7 Show Car Glaze adds special paint nourishing oils according to the bottle.
I will be using one of the first two types.
So consider a strong Dawn wash a stripping of carnauba and glaze. A good idea if you want to go to Blackfire.
Let us know what 3M and CMA tell you.
Of course I did not expect him to say "yeah it attracts dust like crazy" but he did say that he had not personally seen any problem on his dark blue Audi and that he only had one coat of the protectant on his car. I plan to use at least 2-3 coats of protectant and may apply it until I see no increased visual benefits. I am very curious to see if this is as easy to apply and remove as everyone indicates. Not being an expert detailer I plan to print my objective opinion as a newbie detailer for anyone that cares.
I use a PC with the BFire Polish and I'm always amazed how easily it spreads. I remove it by hand using microfiber towels. I apply the BFire Protectant by hand using a microfiber applicator but I think a PC or orbital would apply Protectant just fine. Again, removal is by hand with a microfiber.
Last time I used BFire on my car I applied two coats of Polish and four coats of Protectant.
I really respect your opinions - both here and on autopia - because you seem to have tried many products objectively without bias to snob appeal or cost but primarily with quality and value. You also seem to understand that different products are better for different people base upon specific individual criteria. Thanks in advance.
I've done both our cars ('02 Steel Blue BMW & '98 Red Volvo wagon). The new car looks good as expected, but I was impressed with how the Klasse brought back the color of the Volvo despite my lack of waxing in the past and no clay bar.
I don't think you'll go wrong with Klasse.
-murray
OK, so you're asking Blackfire vs. Klasse. vs Unmentionable Brand. First off, I think you are looking at the cream of the crop in terms of polymer sealants on the market. Any of them will outlast even the best carnaubas or store bought products and they will outshine them as well. I really don't think there's a bad choice in the bunch and there's only a few degrees of separation between them.
I've described my opinion of Blackfire in previous posts. While it may not have the durability and high gloss of the other two, it offers plenty of benefits and is priced reasonably. If I weigh all the benefits equally then Blackfire is a very compelling choice.
Klasse is probably a little more durable and offers a little higher gloss than BFire. The big downside of the Klasse system is its challenging application & removal process. The All In One (AIO) product is a fine one-step but to get the max benefit of Klasse you've also got to use Sealant Glaze (SG) and it's clear SG is a real PITA to use. There's a poster on Autopia who created a detailed description of Klasse usage and it's quite complex. I think that alone will turn off some people. But I know others who seem to thrive on the challenge and get great results from Klasse. So it's sorta up to your personality as to whether you'll like it or not.
I'm always a little hesitant to discuss the final brand in here; too many firefights in the past over it. I will say that it is nice stuff, leaves a very glossy finish, lasts a long time, and is the product currently on my car. However it does pose application challenges and requires paint to be in almost perfect condition - prep is everything with this stuff. It's also designed to work as a system so users of this particular brand are best off using their stuff exclusively and tossing out whatever brands they have stockpiled previously. In other words, to get the max benefit from this product you have to commit totally to the system and the product line. That's fine for some but unreasonable for others.
I hope this answers your questions. Lemme know if I can be of further help.
Somebody pinch me, I must be dreaming ;>)
LOL... I was thinking the SAME thing, but figured that there were enough wildfires in the country right now to comment! ;-))
fastdriver
1. Planning on doing the interior first which should not be a problem since it is in really good shape. Using 303 on just about everything except the glass and plastic.
2. Washing with Dawn and my Big Blue Towel (man I love those towels).
3. Claying with the Erazer (used this on my Accord and was amazed at how easy it was to use).
Not planning on doing anything for swirl marks (hopefully there won't be too many on the light color that show up). If it is really bad I guess I may have to go get some 3M SMR.
4. Polishing with Blackfire and I guess I will use the Koala terry cloth towels that came with my Blackfire but was wondering if they will be as easy to use as some MF detailing towels for buffing. Will know soon.
5. Two coats of Blackfire protectant.
6. Polish the wheels and tires with some more 303.
7. Go home and get in the jacuzzi.
I am hoping that I can do this in less than 4 hours but with my inexperience it will probably take 5 hours. It is only supposed to be around 90 degrees tomorrow and is always big time humid here. Maybe it will only be around 88 in the garage. LOL! I guess I will find out if the Blackfire claim that humidity doesn't affect the ease of application is true or not. This is one of the main reasons I went with BF over Klasse.
But seriously, I have to agree. We've been on this board and the "other" for a couple of years, and the only person who comes close to Bret's knowledge and ability to communicate it objectively is Mr. Detailer.
It's refreshing to read factual comments and not see the flaming any longer. Let's all pat ourselves on our collective backs!
Titan
Let us know your results. After looking at my package is seems that at least on the polishing level, the use of a good buffer would improve the appearance even more. Will you be doing yours by hand. 2 coats of the protectant seems like a good idea.
Concerning Brett
Post 2090 said "While his view is still subjective..."
It was actually his objectivity in discussing the strengths and weaknesses of Klasse, unmentionable, and Blackfire that pushed my decision to Blackfire for my vehicle that needs a stronger than Carnuba protection in winter. He made a decision that I had agonized over for a year easier for me.
Now that the head rush is over I can finally go back to NuFinish. Yaaaayyyyyy!!!!!
Seriously, thanks to all for the compliments. I really appreciate them. Regardless of what's happened in the past I still try hard to offer advice that's focused on the car owner and their particular needs. Yeah, its still my opinion but I try to support it with experience and knowledge.
I think one of the big benefits to Town Hall members is that Mr. D and I use different products and look at solutions from our own unique perspectives. That way others can get a clearer idea of what to do and what to use. Combine that with everyone else's viewpoint and members get some really good advice from all of us.
I don't know if it takes a village to raise a child, but I do know that I'm not detailing everyone's car all by myself! The village needs your help and input as much as mine.
Yours in finely detailed cars, I remain...
I'm only going to be using Mother's 3-step wax system since I've already bought it and the gf would kill me if I went out and bought more products.
In terms of the sealer/glaze (step 2), can you layer it and is there any benefit? From what I've read, I would think not because the paint can only absorb so much glaze, right?
Wish I had a PC so I could get rid of my swirls that I made when I was a detailing newb...oh well. All in good time.
Thanks guys for all the helpful tips!
Have fun detailing! :-)
Any scratch or unneeded swirls will probably show up easily on those dark colors.
Phase 1 Pre Wax Cleaner is going to have some abrasive in it. The Mothers Internet site describing this product says "Pre-Wax Cleaner polishes out minor flaws and smooths the paint surface." It could pick up the existing contaminants on the surface, and scratch them IMO.
I assume, since you are a regular on this site, that like the rest of us you are a little OCD when it comes to car care. Spare yourself the agony. Wash with Dawn and clay bar first. With 2 of you the complete job should go pretty fast.
Polishing should only be needed once. If it doesn't look good after polishing once you would need something stronger like Meguiars Swirl Remover #9. Extra layers of polish won't do any good on a carnauba system like Mothers.
Extra Layers of the Wax increases depth and durability. I generally use 3.
Mothers are good products, I'm sure you'll like the shine. Just make sure to apply the #3 wax again if you notice a reduction in beading.
If you have any rubber trim that the wax might hit, I would advise putting on a trim protectant first. It will leave a white stain if not protected.
Also understand that the phrase Pure Carnauba means that it contains pure Carnauba not that it is 100% Carnauba.
Happy detailing.
I've actually done the 3-step system once before. Acutally that's another question I need to clarify. How often should that step 1 be done? I was under the impression that it was only needed once or twice a year....not 3-4 a year. Since that step 1 is abrasive, I would think minimizing this action would be best. Any ideas?
BTW, both cars are just about a year old, so I'm not too worried about oxidation.
Thanks again guys!
The Step 3 will last around 90 days. If you can apply a coat of Step 3 every two months or so then the paint will always be protected and rarely need polishing. It's a good idea to strip off old wax and built up contaminents at least once a year so the Step 1 comes into play there. Clay the car too when you use Step 1 to start off with the best possible surface.
1)wash w/ dawn
2)clay
3)wash to get rid of clay residue (is this step absolutely required?)
4)step 1-pre-wax cleaner
5)step 2-glaze and sealer
6)step 3-carnauba wax (no cleaners).
7)Tire dressing
Gonna take a while, but definitely worth it. Hopefully I can also hit the engine bay and the interior again. Thanks Bret!
BTW, what's with your multiple personality avatars on Autopia? I liked the messiah w/ the guns personally
Meguiars was the least expensive clay in my area. Remember that if put in a plastic bag it can be used repeatedly unless you drop it. As long as a clean surface comes up when you fold the dirty part in it's still useable. I've used one bar over 3 times and it's still white.
I agree with Brett that you probably should do a full 3 step once a year, probably in the spring. But on the other one in the fall, since it's a new vehicle you can probably get away with just polishing and waxing.
Personally I just polish and wax most of the time after using the clay bar. I use the swirl remover when haze or fine scratches appear that the polish doesn't take care of any more.
Looks like you'll have a full day.
The avatars from The Onion were great but I like to change them now and then.