Been offline for a few days. My nephew is up from FL so I've been busy. Work was a "little" nutty too. I see that automophile has posted those pics. I am STILL having trouble getting to photopoint.com! Anyone else having a problem? This isn't funny!
I have used ZFX last June and a short time ago as trial samples from Sal. I love it. It dries instantly. I have pics in my profile above. Seems like 3 coats is the "saturation" point for the number of applications in one day! ;-))
Winter temps have SUDDENLY arrived here in CT! I have my Zaino order all filled out, but have not sent it in yet.
Wishing all a happy, healthy and peaceful holiday season.
I am glad there is someone out there that realizes that dirt under pressure goes somewhere and that "somewhere" is along the paint causing minute scratches. I was wondering after the couple of nay sayers who posted immediately following mine. You are right in that it will take 12-18 months of weekly washings for such scratching to become visible - but it is inevitable. If one truly wants to keep that perfect shine: LOW PRESSURE, HIGH VOLUME only!
It's freezing here in NY, and I was wondering if applying Zaino is possible under the circumstances. If it is, how long do you wait before removing the wax?
We haven't used wax in years, ever since we switched to Zaino.
Anyway, if it's freezing where you are, and I presume that you are not talking about applying Zaino in a garage, where it's not freezing and where you might have some control over the temperature, then I think it's too cold to use it.
I'm not sure, as I apply Zaino in the spring and fall for this reason, but my guess is that if it's too cold for you to work without a hat, it's too cold to be messing with the finish on your car. Find a good book and wait for a warmer day.
When you do apply it, you will find that, unless you are using ZFX, (which is new and is a whole other story), you apply the Zaino in a very thin finish, then you wait for it to dry. This time will vary greatly depending on the thickness of the coat you applied, the temperature and the humidity, and may take from one half hour to several hours. (Before ZFX, I just put it on in the evening (in the garage) and then took it off in the morning.)
I suggest this: snuggle up in front of the fire with a good book or a hot babe, put ZFX on your Christmas list, and then go nuts in the spring.
In the meantime, a Merry Christmas to all, and best wishes for a Happy New Year.
Yeah, it's been an acrimonious year around these parts and, yeah, I haven't done a whole lot to reduce the amount of acrimony. But I'm trying to be a better boy for 2002.
I would like to wish all y'all a very Merry Christmas and a New Year filled with good health, good livin', and shiny cars.
Bret and Larry and everyone else. May Santa bring you a warm day to detail your cars, a fresh supply of your favorite product, a stocking full of towels (cotton or microfiber - whichever you prefer), and health and happiness. Take care and happy holidays.
Thanks to all of the positive opinions regarding Zaino, I finally broke down and had to try it. Usually, when researching a product on the internet, you have to weed thru many negative opinions and flames to find the true feeling, but it seems with Zaino, the only negatives are that the people who use it are absolutely crazy about it. I'm very particular when it comes to my cars, and find the advice I receive from this board quite helpful.
Just a little background... we bought a black 300M in Oct of 2001, and the only thing I've used on it so far is Zymol. I thought Zymol brought out a decent shine, but it was a pain to apply. I hate doing sections at a time, rubbing it in until dry, and wiping it right off. I much prefer the Zaino way of waxing the whole car, and wiping off the wax some time later.
Thus far my favorite wax has been Meguiars Gold Class... which I currently have on my 97 Bonneville... the shine is incredible, and seems to last, especially when using their Gold Class car wash. I starting using this after we bought the 300. Since we've had the 300M, it's only seen a couple of brushless washes, a couple of dealer washes, and me using a soft mitt and the absorber. There are so many shallow scratches in the paint now, I have to wonder what caused them. This is why I am going with 2 coats of Z5. I broke down and went for a full 8 step process... Dawn, Zaino Clay, Dawn, Z1, Z5, Z5, Z2, Z2. I'm currently ready to begin step 6, the second coat of Z5. The claying went pretty good, it did make the surface quite smooth, and I'm glad I did it. I used Z7 mixed with water for the clay lube. However, how in the hell does anyone stretch and refold those clay bars? I was able to get thru the whole car using one bar, which I ripped in half once it flattened, and also was able to "pull and stretch" once. The surface wasn't too rough to begin with, so I was lucky I didn't have to open the second one. And for the advice of putting a shower curtain or garbage bag down under you... heed it. I dropped mine at least four times, even though I was careful because I was fully aware that it should NEVER hit the floor!
I just came in from wiping off the first application of Z1/Z5, and all I can say is WOW! Firstly, it came off so easily, and this was done in an Ohio winter, using a kerosene heater to try and keep the garage around 60. Honestly, more than the shine, my favorite part of using Zaino is that it doesn't make all rubber trim white. As careful as anyone can be, there is no way to prevent a little bit of wax from getting on trim and seals. Also, when waxing around emblems (and the 300M has a few with individual letters) it's almost fruitless to try and remove all the residual wax from around them. The Z5 came off of all of these items without a problem. The shine is good, but as I expected, I am still seeing some of the deeper scratches which I hope coat #2 of Z5 along with 2 coats of Z2 will take care of. Many of the shallow scratches are already gone.
By the way, I've also read many times that you have to make sure and not use too much of Zaino when applying it. Listen to this tip!!! I did good with the Z1, using the "X" applicator trick, only going thru about 1/8 of the bottle, but went thru almost half a bottle of Z5 when also using the "X" tip. Surprisingly, and thankfully, it came off quite easy after sitting for about 6 - 8 hours.
I'll post my feelings once I have the car totally finished, but so far, I can see why so many people have such strong feelings about Zaino. For anyone who is riding the fence (like me for a while), just do it!!!
Thanks to all for the great advice, and Happy Holidays! Bob
It's good to hear from someone who made the switch and followed the directions correctly the first time. I seem to see quite a few posts here from people who just get Zaino, put it on over the wax, then start asking questions about the problems.
I'm not sure what a 300M is, but Zaino puts a highly reflective, super smooth and very glossy shine on the black paint. I have had a black Lexus since May and I always get questions and (positive) comments about the shine.
You did not mention it, but if you are not also using Z6, get some of that and use it between coats and after a wash. It's really great.
Finally, the new ZFX will now allow us to apply up to 3 coats as fast as we can put it on and take it off, as it eliminates the (sometimes) long drying time, and eliminates the need to let each coat "cure" for 24 hours before applying the next. I have just received some, but have not used it yet; but I am anxious to find some warm weather (I'm also in Ohio, where it is now pretty cold) when I can heighten the gloss with multiple coats of Zaino in just an afternoon.
Welcome aboard. That's a great post, and I can see you are as happy with "Z" as I am. Like Squidd mentioned above, please use the Z6 between coats. Also, spray some Z6 on your applicator prior to pouring Z5 onto it. This will make it easier to use less Z5. Another little tip: when applying Z5 or Z2, simply use very, very little pad pressure as you move the applicator across the surface of a panel. I also use overlapping strokes to insure completeness.
LOL....Another Zainoholic! Sounds like you followed the directions correctly the FIRST time and did everything right. Just wait until you get a few more coats of Z2 and Z6 on your 300M.
squidd99-
A 300M is a CHRYSLER like my Christine was! You can read all about her in my profile above.
Ira, the Los Angeles Zaino dealer, now has ZFX in stock. He is testing it this weekend to see if there is an increase in shine compared to "regular" Zaino. I will try it myself and report back. More shine in less time! Sounds good to me . I also wonder if it may be more durable than the "regular". Anyone have any experience?
I've used ZFX last June and about a month ago. I don't think the shine is any better- how can it be- but being able to apply 3 coats in one day with no waiting for it to dry is a great advantage. You'll see when you use it.
I recently bought a 98 Black Jeep Cherokee. It has very bad swirls and small scratches in the paint. I would like to use 3Ms Imperial Hand Glaze to remove the swirl marks and then use Z2.
Can you apply the Z1 and Z2 directly on top of a finish after using the glaze or should it be washed with Dawn first?
etech - The glaze is bound to leave some residue and lubricating oils, so you should Dawn wash before you Z1, etc. Be careful about what glaze you use. I remember reading that one of the 3M products just uses a lot of silicone oil to fill the scratches, but I don't remember which one. Group - any input here?
bandc300m Welcome - just wait till you get a few more coats on! Next time, just make your "X" a thin one. I used one bottle of Z2 for about 8 -10 applications.
Use a fine polish like 3M Swirl remover or maybe even a slightly more aggressive one to fix the swirls and small scratches--then Dawn Wash and do the Z process.
Glazes are like makeup -- All they will do is hide -- NOT Remove -- the scratches and swirls -- Once the glaze is washed the scratches and swirls will re-appear.
Putting Z2 on top of the IHG is not a solution either. The Zaino polish will not bond properly.
WARNING: LONG POST so skip right over it if you do not care about the topic!
As a detailer this is how I eliminate swirl marks:
Use a product like 3M Perfect-It or Meguiar's swirl Remover. They both have very mild abrasives so they work slow, but have the advantage of not harming/removing too much of your paint. 3M's Hand glaze uses an even finer abrasive. You could use it alone, but it would take you far far longer to do the job; use one of the others first and then use this one as your final go over. These products also contain essential oils, not silicone, that will enhance the gloss, detracting from the swirls.
The best tool to apply Swirl Remover is a terry cloth applicator pad, washcloth (a terry cloth towel is too large) or a closed cell foam applicator. On horizontal surfaces apply the swirl remover by rubbing a generous amount into the paint fore and aft. Do not rub in circles, do not rub side to side, only rub front to rear. For vertical surfaces (doors) use an up and down motion. These particular motions are important because a swirl mark is most visible at a 90 degree viewing angle. This is why circular motions are verbotten, thay can be seen from any point. By using motions that are along the line of sight you make any remnants of the swirl invisible.
Once the Swirl Remover begins to haze, use a clean terry cloth towel to buff. Again, proper direction only. You will need to do this several times to make an impact. Your hood alone, by hand, may take as long as an hour and a half depending upon how deep the swirls are. Using a buffer will speed up the process but unless you have experience with one I recommend you avoid using it as an inexperienced hand WILL do more harm than good. HOWEVER, there are two good polishers on the market which will do an excellent job but do not have enough speed to burn the paint:
The Porter Cable Orbital Polisher #7424. Retail about $200, you can easily find one for $150. This is the current "Hot Item". Its only drawback is that it is not ergonomic; your hands, wrists and forearms will know they have had a workout after 3-4 hours with this baby.
I firmly believe the Cyclo Polisher is the BEST POLISHER IN THE WORLD! This is the one we use in my detailing business. It is a bit more expensive but well worth it if you intend to do much polishing. With Zaino you will not have to!
Retail price about $250, you can find them for $200-225.
Remember that you will need to spend another $30-40 or so for the various bonnets/pads that you apply the swirl remover/polish with. Only you can decide if the cost is worth it. Email me if you have any questions.
BTW, here are a couple of sites that offer good information on detailing:
You wrote: "These products also contain essential oils, not silicone, that will enhance the gloss, detracting from the swirls."
What is an essential oil? There is no use in leaving the oils from the products you mentioned after the swirls/scratches have been removed or lessened in appearance. The painted surface has no need to be replenished with products that contain "oils".
These oils should be washed off using Dawn so that they do not interfere with the Zaino polymers bonding.
Etech: (I should have stated this in my post 3197)You should try a few coats of Zaino Z5 and see if it fills the scratches/swirls and lessens their appearance to an acceptable level before trying to fix the problem with abrasives.
Well... I'm now on step 7.5 of 8 (I put the first coat of Z2 on tonight, gonna take it off in the morning). Just a refresher, my 8 step process for our 2001 300M are Dawn, Zaino Clay, Dawn, Z1, Z5, Z5, Z2, Z2.
The ease of applying and removing the Z2/Z5 is unbelievable, and the shine so far is also incredible. The many scratches from whatever are not any better after the 2 coats of Z5. I didn't continue with further coats of Z5 because of the results on the trunk. I had to use some 3M liquid rubbing compound (pad glaze or whatever its called) to remove some deeper scratches from a parking gate. I have been very happy with the results of this combined with the 3M swirl remover (gray liquid), but it did leave the surface a bit dull with a layer of VERY shallow scratches. After the two coats of Z5, I now notice that the trunk is almost perfect, vs. the rest of the car which still has many many shallow scratches in it.
I don't know if Fastdriver agrees, but I think the paint on the 300's is soft when new. I've heard this a few time on other boards. We got a few HUGE chips the first month in odd places (center of the hood, in front of the sunroof) and very few since (and these very few are tiny, right on the front of the hood). I suspect my annoying shallow scratches occurred during the dealer prep. I never thought back then to refuse that... but will make sure to do just that from now on after reading all the postings on here (along with telling them to keep their dealer name off!)
Now... a few questions... you guys are wonderful with your advice, by the way!
1. Is there harm in not using the Z6 between coats even though I wait the 24 hrs.? I didn't think to order this with my initial order.
2. Now that I'm going crazy with Z5/Z2, what harm is there in using this on top of a surface which didn't have Z1 applied? (areas like headlights, wipers, etc)
3. Can I use Z1 without harming the lower coats whenever I desire before applying the future coats of Z2, for the areas I forgot to put the Z1 on?
4. If I get a ton of ambition and decide to rub the entire car out (minus the perfect trunk), how would I go about removing all this Zaino work I've put into it over the past week? From what I understand, Dawn does not remove Zaino.
FYI... I NEVER expected Zaino to remove these shallow scratches, I still believe that nothing comes easy. There is no way I thought the incredibly easy process of applying/removing Zaino would get rid of these, unless it actually contained black paint to fill these in. From up to a foot away... the shine is INCREDIBLE, better than any other wax I've used. And, from the way the trunk came out, I see that the really shallow scratches and swirls are totally removed by Z5.
Yes, there are such things. Most common are montan, cocoanut, banana and lemon seed oils. Their purpose is to restore/maintain the flexibility of the paint. As paint is exposed to sun/air/contaminates it dries out (not the solvent vaporization from freshly applied paints) and, if ignored, paint will eventually crack just like untended vinyl on the dashboard will. These oils will not lessen the appearance/shine or the bonding capability of any wax (natural or synthetic) and are usually found in them as part of the "mix". Just take a look at the ingredients list on any bottle of glaze, polish or wax and you see several oils listed; they are not included as filler! Or go to http://www.zymol.com/ (one of the manufacturers of top quality wax) and look at what they put into their products.
Here is a quote from Motorhead.com: "Polish restores valuable oils to the paint, eliminates fine scratches and creates a high gloss not possible with waxes. Polishing is nourishing the paint and hiding hairline scratches. Polishes also restore the oils which washing, age, sun, rain and air (smog) have leached out of the paint."
Oils are necessary to keeping paint fresh and healthy. They are not something to be washed away.
to your four questions, with some extra commentary thrown in at no extra charge.
1. No. The use of Z6 is always optional. It's great after the final coat, and is often used between coats and also used on the applicator to aid in the application of z2 or z5. Not ordering it was a mistake, because you will find that you will use it more than the others. When the weather warms up again, and you wash your car more often, you will find that you use it after every wash. It does something to the z2 to smooth it out and seems to enhance the optical properties, if that is possible.
2. No harm. Nothing made by Zaino will harm your car. The question is: will it do any good. Putting it on headlights and other glass and plastic surfaces is something which is done a lot. I put it right over the tail lights and the plastic shield that covers the headlight assembly on my car. Without z1, it might not bond and might not last long, but it will cause no harm. The advantage of having these surfaces protected is for ease in cleaning, since you can't tell if they are highly reflective anyway. I don't know why you would want to put it on your wipers. It's not made for rubber, and my guess is that it might impair their ability to wipe. Unless you mean the wiper ARM, but most wiper arms are matt black, and again there's not much point there. Finally, some people use it on the windows and windshield and claim it beads water like Rain-X. Others here have said don't bother. I have not tried this, so you are on you own there.
3. Yes. You can use z1 anytime. If you think you missed spots, go ahead and re-do the whole car or the spots you missed. It's the Z1 which bonds to the paint; without it, the z2 or z5 will come off rather quickly. Otherwise, the rule seems to be that you should apply z1 at least once a year, and maybe twice a year, especially if your car is not garaged. More than 2 times a year is not needed and is just a waste of the product. The extra z1 will not remove the other z products or detract from the shine/finish in any way.
4. Jeez, you have a lot of time on your hands. Yes, Dawn does not remove Zaino. If you rub out the whole car as you describe, (with abrasive polishes) I would just suggest you start all over: Dawn once or twice, maybe clay that bad boy, then start with the z1 and work your way up. My guess is that the abrasive polishes you use to rub out the scratch marks will rub off the zaino. I expect you will get right down to the bare paint, more or less. I'd start again with z1, and I'd get some ZFX so that I could build up 3 new coats of z2 one right after the other without waiting a day for each coat to cure. (This 300 thing with the soft paint must be some hell of a car.)
FINALLY, you say: "the shine is INCREDIBLE, better than any other wax I've used. . ." You need to get the terminology right. Yes the shine is incredible, but you should say that Zaino is better "than any wax I've used." By use of the word "other" you classify Zaino as a wax. Zaino is not a wax, it's a polymer finish used instead of a wax. That's what the Dawn is for. Throw out your old waxes. You won't need them any more.
Zaino makes Z-16, used primarily for tires, but the description on the web page indicates that it is good for black bumpers also; From the ZAINO WEB PAGE:
"Z-16 PERFECT TIRE GLOSS
For many years I have been dissatisfied with the tire dressings on the market. They are loaded with silicone oil. They are very greasy, oily and messy. They attract dirt and dust like a magnet, have no UV protection, can cause tire deterioration, give an unrealistic gloss and wash off as soon as the tire gets wet. The tire dressing, always slings and gets onto the wheels and surrounding paint surface and causes discoloration and staining. I have yet to find one benefit to using this type of product. Z-16 Perfect Tire Gloss is a non-oily, non-greasy, rubber protectant and finishing treatment. Its unique formula with Ultra-Gard™ UV(40) and antistatic properties prevent drying, cracking, browning and repels dust and dirt. Z-16 leaves an incredibly durable, water repellent, perfect looking satin finish, that's only slightly glossy and dry to the touch. Use on all exterior rubber, tires, moldings, plastic trim, weatherstripping, underhood hoses and more. Just wet a sponge with Z-16 and apply to the surface to be treated and let dry. It will last thru rain and multiple washings. Z-16 is very durable and will last an average of 3 to 4 weeks on an outdoor car. Z-16 is not recommended for interior seats or vinyl tops."
I have a RAV4 which has plastic cladding on the sides as well as plastic bumpers. Store-bought dressings last about one day. I have seen a product called "Forever Black," which is a dye, not just a dressing, but have not used it yet. As my car lived in Florida from 96 to 2001, the black plastic parts are pretty worn from the sun. I suspect I need that dye stuff, rather than just a dressing that will only last a few weeks.
If anyone has any experience with Z16 or with "Forever Black" (I'm pretty sure that's the name), please let us know.
Zaino polishes do not contain any oils. Paints need protection. The protection does not need to contain oils. Oils are unnecessary to keep the paint from cracking. Paints do not need to be fed oils. This is a myth.
Maybe you should give Sal Zaino a call to explain it to you or go to the Autopia forums and ask about whether or not oils are needed to feed the paint.
I have spoken to Sal many times prior to my first purchase, and since, so I do know his viewpoint and I have never heard him say that preparing the paint first is a waste of time. Also, as a professional detailer I am involved in several detailing discussions, including Autopia.
I well know that Zaino does not contain any oils since I have been using it for years on my own vehicles and HIGHLY recommending it to my customers. Zaino is a "protectant," not a polish in the technical detailing definition in which we are using the word. The job of a polish is to prepare the paint for whatever protective coating one wishes to use and as such the oils they contain DO help restore the paint's original luster. Zaino is 99.9% optically perfect and as such it cannot make an oxidized/hazed/faded paint look good. Beneath the clear protection Zaino provides you will still see whatever condition paint you started with. It requires a properly prepared surface to bond to make that incredible shine we all love so much.
If you do not wish to use oils to restore those lost by normal exposure to the elements, have at it. But there is no myth here. Attend a quality Concours car show and ask if they use oils to keep the paint's luster at its maximum. You bet they do!
If I didn't restore those "lost" oils as a part of my detailing process I would soon lose every customer I have as no one would pay me $80-100 just to slop on some type of wax over dull looking paint. And they would be right in doing so because although their paint would be "protected" they would still see dull paint.
To everyone else here, I try to educate so we all can be proud of the way our cars look; however I readily admit I am not GOD and do not know absolutely everything there is to know about detailing, but I am convinced about the benefits of restoring the lost oils. I freely provide what information I do know, and maybe that is exactly what it is worth. But please do yourselves a favor by checking out the information from several different sources (detailing sites, wax manufacturers sites, the list of ingredients used by different wax/polish manufacturers, detailing books, etc.) and then decide for yourselves. As for me, I will not continue this unproductive thread.
Keep those vehicles looking good and I wish you all a happy and productive New Year! Jim
Sal does not state preparing the paint is a waste of time nor am I saying that or implying that. I have never stated that you can slop on Zaino over dull looking paint. In fact I do not recommend Zaino for highly oxidized or paint finishes in really bad shape until the paint is fixed using abrasive type compounds/polishes. But again, once the paint is "repaired" using these type of products it should be washed with Dawn to remove leftover oils before applying Zaino polish. If you are using regular waxes (which contain oils) instead of Zaino you can skip the Dawn wash.
It is the abrasives that do the work of removing oxidized paint, swirls and small scratches. The oils are simply used as fillers and a product medium for the abrasives. These oils that are left over must be removed before applying Zaino polish.
Sal has stated many times that after using a product like 3M Swirl Remover you must wash with Dawn to remove the oils that are in the product; otherwise the Zaino polish will not bond properly. You are correct that Zaino is not technically a polish in the true sense of the word...not because it does not contain oils but because it contains no abrasives.
Here is what someone highly regarded on Autopia says concerning feeding oils, "Bull is right, the "oils" are makeup , but do serve one function besides a "marketing of the product". They have solvents and mild polishing qualities that aid in preparing the surface for you final protectant. As far as putting "oils" in the paint, no way! It is chemically impossible to do so, they may lay on top or go down into the porosity of the clears, but are not part of the structure and will weaken the molecular chain over time if allowed to stay there."
Hi! Happy New Year and thanks for your input. A couple of comments - 1. Polishing - Yes! I agree that you must apply the polish as you say to minimize visbilty of tiny scratches. However, then you recommend an orbital polisher. Doesn't this just make lots of tiny circles that will creat visible swirl marks? 2. Oils - I tended to believe this when cars were still painted with oil-based enamel paints. Some old-timers even used to wipe their cars down with kerosene to restore color and shine to old paint. However, new cars are now painted with inorganic laquers and water-based paints. I'm not sure that oils apply any longer. Comments?
I'm one of those "old-timers" that used to wash my cars with a water/kerosene mix (try keeping those two liquids mixed together). You are correct that it did bring out the colors and shine of oil based paints. Of course, the shine didn't last very long, but it made the cars look "shiny" for a while. This mixture also attracted dirt and dust. I wouldn't dare try that mixture on any car that's been manufactured in the last 15 years.
Although for many years I used an orbital buffer when I used "regular" waxes, if you don't use a "light hand" or if you leave the buffer on one particular spot for long, you will do more damage than good. With the use of Zaino, I can't see where a power buffer would be of any bennefit whatsoever.
I agree with the above comments. I think one of the best advantages about Zaino over wax is that it just wipes right off. No buffing, no elbow grease, no real work involved.
I just cannot imagine spending all that time and effort to wax a car, when a better result is available without all the hard buffing. That's why the machines were invented, to do some of the work required by waxing. You take out the work, and you eliminate the need for the machine.
I have an orbital buffer I bought years ago, and if I didn't have a marble floor in my bathroom, I would have thrown it out a long time ago. I sure would not use it on a car.
If you reread my original post (#3198) I was talking about using swirl removing abrasives when I said that using a buffer would speed up the process. There is absolutely no reason to use one for the application/removal of any Zaino product. If I gave that impression I sincerely regret not making myself clear and I hope this will clarify my position.
Since there has been a minor uproar about whether oils are necessary for a painted surface I decided to try out the effectiveness of products containing oils versus no-oil methods. The subject car was my brother's Black 1975 Pontiac TransAm which he has had in storage for the last 5 years - meaning no type of maintenance other than starting it on ocassion. My own cars were not practical subjects as I keep them in near show car condition. The only surface that was acceptable for the test was the trunk lid as the hood has the screaming chicken decal on it and the roof is the "T" type with the two glass panels in it.
The Test: We gave the car a quick wash with Dawn and dried it. The trunk lid was masked off into two equal areas. On one side I used Zymol HD Cleanse and my Cyclo Polisher to remove old oxidized paint and replenish lost oils. I chose Zymol because their website says, "Hd-Cleanse, the first step of the Zymol 2-step process, provides deep cleaning without removing precious paint, RESTORES VALUABLE OILS to the paint, eliminates fine scratches and creates an incredible high gloss not possible with ordinary polishes or waxes" [emphasis mine]. The site also lists the ingredients: "Contains Montan Oil, Apricot Kernel Oil, Lemon Seed Oil, Coconut Oil, Cetyl Esters, Cetyl Cocoamide (derived from coconut oil), Cocoamide, Citric Acid (from rose hips), Kapolite." For the other half I made my own newspaper (3000 grit sandpaper) pad to fit the Cyclo Polisher [Red Green would have been proud] and went at it to remove the old oxidized paint. Both sides were then rewashed with Dawn to remove excess oils and/or bits of newspaper and dried using a California Water Blade and a P21S synthetic chamois.
Results: We used my brother's light meter, he's an amateur photographer, to measure the reflected light coming off the two surfaces. We maintained the same viewing angle by placing the light meter on a tripod, and having the car under fluorescent lighting. The light meter indicated that 2/3 f/stop less light was needed from the Zymoled side to make the photo indicating that more light was being reflected from it (it was shinier) than the non-oiled side.
While one experiment does absolutely prove oils are necessary to restore paint to its "original" condition, it is good enough for me and I will continue to use oil containing products. We each will have to draw our own conclusions.
Your test does not prove one way or another whether oils are necessary for a painted surface. All the experts I have communicated with say they are absolutely not necessary in terms of "feeding" or "replenishing" the paint. You do need something to carry the abrasives and most manufacturers use oils because it is effective and a "safe" way to carry the abrasives and whatever remaining oils left on the surface leave a nice initial gloss. Cured paint cannot absorb oils! In fact oils can damage the paint substrate. Please call or email Sal Zaino or any reputable auto paint manufacturer...not Zymol that sells waxes and uses this "replenishing oils" marketing technique. In your test above you even washed the oils off after using the Zymol HD cleanse and said the surface looked great...even after you washed off these precious oils. At this point it would be the perfect time to apply the Zaino Polish because now you have removed the oils that would have interfered with Zaino's bonding abilities.
You wrote,"Hd-Cleanse, the first step of the Zymol 2-step process, provides deep cleaning without removing precious paint, RESTORES VALUABLE OILS to the paint, eliminates fine scratches and creates an incredible high gloss not possible with ordinary polishes or waxes."
The restoring valuable oils is nonsense as well as the deep cleaning without removing paint. The only possible way to remove oxidation is by removing paint...either chemically or with abrasives. If you believe otherwise please explain how you can remove oxidation without removing paint. BTW, Kapolite is abrasive.[Soft Abrasive Kapolite SF Kaopolite, Inc.] Many companies are not truthful about how their products work.
I don't see how 3000 Grit sandpaper is comparable to what might be in the Zymol HD cleanse or that using 3000 grit sandpaper is even a safe, proper way to polish a car so your results have no meaning except to say using Zymol HD cleanse works better than 3000 Grit Sandpaper.
A test I would like you to do is to do a whole hood with the HD cleanse using any method you prefer. After the surface has been prepared doing this...wash one half of the hood with a Dawn wash and leave the other half alone. Next apply the Zaino polish(protectant) on both sides and do tests of longevity. The side you do not wash off the oils will initially have a slightly higher gloss(but not as optically clear) than with Zaino alone due to these oils. The downside is it will have a much shorter longevity.
As a professional detailer your customers are probably more interested in instant gratification by seeing a great shine rather than seeing the shine lasts for many weeks and even months.
I'm no expert, but it seems to me that if you put something oily on your car, the paint will seem to shine and have a high gloss, and will probably look great for a short period of time. But that oil is going to come off the car real fast, not to mention that it probably will hold dust, grit, and other stuff you don't want sticking to your car.
I would think that what we need is to get all this oil and stuff off the car, and then apply a finish that has high optical properties that will bond to the paint and not fall right off. I think that's what the Zaino polymer products do.
I wouldn't oil up my car any more than I would oil up myself at the beach, as good as that would look.
To continue the point made by squidd99, when I bought my car, the dealership did the usual "prep" work. That included washing the car. The result was a "clean" car which then included some swirl marks. And then they applied that magical dealership "stuff". That stuff was the 3M Hand Glaze which consists of a weak wax in a mineral oil base. It covers all the scratches and swirl marks and leaves a very shiny, slick surface. Which attracts dust like a magnet. And the oil is leached out after the first good rain storm. Which leaves the swirl marks.
If and when I buy another car, I'll specify absolutely no prep work on the painted surface. I'll then wash with dawn and clay the car myself. And then, I'll apply Zaino.
Right now, my car is half coated in "earth tones". Dust and dirt on the lower panels. The upper panels are actually fairly clean and show the Zaino shine. I have 4 coats of Zaino on the car and haven't had a chance to wash it for well over a month now. The upper panels are exposed to the high winds which have blown the dust away (thanks to Zaino's Z6 anti-static properties). The lower panels don't get as much wind, and a residual amount of dirt from rain puddles and road salts remains on the car. But you can easily tell that there is a great shine under the dirt.
Joebob says, "but you seem to be missing my point completely." And vice versa. I washed off the EXCESS oil (i.e. those not "absorbed" into the paint) as I clearly stated. Obviously any remaining oil that produces a film on the paint's surface would hinder any type of wax from bonding. I have never stated otherwise. And I have spoken with paint manufacturers reps since being a detailer demands that one know what one is doing and I have yet to get a straight answer about whether oils are/are not beneficial, especially with regards to German paints. If just one knowledgeable person would tell me oils are useless I would stop using (and paying for) the stuff!
I DO NOT recommend using newspaper for any type of polishing other than windows. I used newspaper for my experiment because it was the only product I could quickly find that did not contain oils but would remove oxidized paint without causing harmful swirl marks. All other products (Meguiars, Mothers, Zymol, etc.) do contain oils. If you know of something that is comparable to HD Cleanse but does not contain oils I would be very interested in reading the results of your own experiment. The point I am trying to make from the results of the experiment is that although both Zymol and newspaper remove oxidized paint, the oil containing product did a better job of producing a glossy surface IN PREPARATION for the final wax/polymer protectant than no-oil products. If the statement that, "Cured paint cannot absorb oils!" is correct would you please explain why the oiled side reflected more light than the no-oil side? The fact that the "oiled" side had a greater shine AFTER washing the excess oil off indicates to me that this paint did absorb, if that is the proper term, some of the oil. Otherwise with both sides now having "clean" paint the light meter should have given the exact same f/stop reading. BTW, where did the idea that I stopped after the polishing phase and did not finish the job by Zainoing the car come from? I just didn't include it as this very important step has no bearing upon the current discussion of replenishing oils. You all must think I am an incredibly ignorant/incompetent detailer to have omitted protecting the paint after taking all this time to prepare it in the first place.
As for the Zymol HD Cleanse, the info I included came directly off their web site and it did not include any further explanation (always a dangerous thing, as is accepting everything a seller says as true). Had you spoken to one of their reps as I have then you would understand that the "precious paint" they refer to as not being removed is the unoxidized paint beneath the top dull layer which the HD Cleanse DOES remove. I agree they should have stated it better. And yes I do know that Kapolite is an abrasive; my mistake was in assuming we all realized this and therefore I didn't think it need mentioning. If Zymol truly did not remove the oxidized layer it would be a total waste of time and money to use it.
Your statement that, "As a professional detailer your customers are probably more interested in instant gratification by seeing a great shine rather than seeing the shine lasts for many weeks and even months" is TOTALLY false and very insulting. I am a detailer because I love the job! Many of my clients are close personal friends who I would never cheat or knowingly give false information to. This is why I recommend Zaino to all my clients and use it on my own vehicles as well. I also give a personal guarantee that with the purchase of the full Zaino treatment (wash, clay, wash, polish, Z1, then 3 coats of Z2) I will redo the entire procedure if water fails to bead for 3 full months. In the three years I have offered this guarantee I have not had anyone make a claim. I willingly teach my customers as much as they want to know about detailing so I do not understand your need to make such an unfounded and derogatory statement. I have only tried to provide the best information and detailing methods I know. If I am doing something incorrectly I will happily change and be forever grateful to whomever teaches me a better method.
And if "All the experts" you know refers to the Autopia forum then you are relying on their OPINIONS just as I have been posting mine. I also find it curious that you refer to that group in particular since Zaino is anathema to most of them. The majority opinion is that Meguiars is THE wax while all others are merely "also rans." Some of them are very knowledgeable people, however, I wouldn't bet my business on their opinions alone.
Finally, since it is obvious that no one intends to change his mind I will no longer keep this thread going. The result of my experiment is good enough for me to continue using polishes with oils for more than their lubricating properties. Do or do not "replenish lost oils" at your own discretion.
I apologize for taking up so much space and now return you to the real topic here: how great Zaino is!
I don't know where you have been but it is certainly not Autopia: Klasse and Zaino are the 2 most talked about car care products there. Zaino is very popular among many Autopia members...more than Meguiars...maybe you should go there and post about applying Zaino over oil based products and see what kind of responses you get.
Using their Topic Search engine came up with the following results: [Note the * is wildcard to get more complete results] Klasse; - Displaying Topics 1 to 25 of 1920 Zaino* Or Zanio*; Displaying Topics 1 to 25 of 1575 Meguire* OR Meguiar*; Displaying Topics 1 to 25 of 1155
This whole stupid disagreement started when I told you that after using an abrasive product or a product containing oils that you MUST wash off the oils from these other products before applying Zaino polish so that it will bond properly. Squidd99 seems to have picked up right away on that. Why can't you?
I will soon post some e-mailed responses from Sal concerning the subjects of "feeding", "replenishing" paints with oils and leaving oils on the surface with regard to Zaino.
You write: "If the statement that, "Cured paint cannot absorb oils!" is correct would you please explain why the oiled side reflected more light than the no-oil side?"
Your methodology is not consistent: How can you possibly say that using newspaper has the EXACT same abrasive strength as what is in the HD cleanse?
You write, "And vice versa. I washed off the EXCESS oil (i.e. those not "absorbed" into the paint)"
Correction...you washed off all the oils on the paint if you did a thorough Dawn wash since cured paint cannot absorb oils.
You write,"If just one knowledgeable person would tell me oils are useless I would stop using (and paying for) the stuff!"
All fine abrasive products use some kind of oils in them. If you are buying more expensive abrasive type products because they contain exotic oils then you shouldn't. 3M has a very high quality line of polishes and even has guides explaining the type of conditions they should be used and how aggressive they are. I have stated this over and over that it is the abrasives that actually do the work...the oils should be washed off before using Zaino.
I am not trying to insult you with regard to customers. Most people who go to professional detailers are too lazy or busy to do it themselves. As long as the finish looks shiny and clean after they pick up their car they will generally be satisfied. It is great that your customers take a personal interest in what you do and the products that you use. They are not the typical customers that generally use detailers. It is commendable that you offer the 3 month guaranty. I am curious about one thing though..." Z1, then 3 coats of Z2 "
With ZFX this is something that can easily be achieved. Before ZFX, however, to do three coats of Zaino would require 6 hours waiting time(under the best of conditions-temperature over 70 degrees) between coats. This would require you keep the car overnight. Do you have many customers that could do this?
"This whole stupid disagreement started when I told you that after using an abrasive product or a product containing oils that you MUST wash off the oils from these other products before applying Zaino polish so that it will bond properly. Squidd99 seems to have picked up right away on that. Why can't you?"
I have repeatedly stated that I wash off all EXCESS oil before applying any type of protectant. Why don't you read my entire post rather than focusing on what you don't like?
The Autopia forum I read is titled:
Auto-Detailing
Secrets of the Experts
Message Board
What site are you refering to?
"I will soon post some e-mailed responses from Sal concerning the subjects of "feeding", "replenishing" paints with oils and leaving oils on the surface with regard to Zaino."
I look forward to reading them to see if there is actually anything that differs from my own conversations with him. Had you actually read my posts you would realize that I DO NOT and NEVER HAVE advised "leaving oils on the surface" of the paint. I do believe that some of the oils is "absorbed" into the paint as my experiment seem to indicate. But all EXCESS oil is always washed away. Nice try, but I will not allow you to misrepresent what I am saying.
If there is anyone else out there that has some knowledge of this topic please email me directly, otherwise we need to start a new topic as I believe most who read this board couldn't care less as long as Zaino continues to produce that extreme shine we all love. This current thread is just nit picking between people who are very anal about car care.
Not many of my clients are willing to go without their "pride & joy" overnight, but the more upscale ones are (that is the Jag, MB, Lexus and Lincoln owners; for some reason the BMW crowd like to do it themselves, excepting the 7 series owners) especially since we offer pick up and delivery services.
"Your methodology is not consistent: How can you possibly say that using newspaper has the EXACT same abrasive strength as what is in the HD cleanse?" I was not concerned with whether they have the exact same abrasive strength, just that both sides of the trunk lid had all oxidized paint removed and no swirl marks to degrade the appearance. I seriously doubt that newspaper is capable of making any significant pitting or scratching.
"Correction...you washed off all the oils on the paint if you did a thorough Dawn wash since cured paint cannot absorb oils." That seem to be the major point of contention between us. I do not know that paint cannot absorb a minute amount of oil. My experiment seems to indicate that it can. If I am wrong then I do not understand the experiment's result as I tried to keep all else uniform.
If someone can straighten this whole mess out I would be very grateful and if necessary would readily admit to being wrong. As I have previously said, I am not GOD and do not know absolutely everything there is to know about detailing. The day I stop learning will be the day I die.
The link you originally provided in post #3198 will get you there too.
I am not trying to misrepresent what you are saying. I am simply stating that paint does not absorb oil and oil is not beneficial.
It was many posts down the line that you actually "stated" that you wash with Dawn after using an oil based product. You did this in your experiment(which perplexed me) but before that post you never stated that the (as you call it) "excess" oils should be removed.
So as long as you are doing this then you are doing it the exact same way as I. The only difference is that I believe all the oils are removed and you don't.
Interesting discussion! My feeling is that until some paint chemist joins in, we won't know the real story about the oil vs. no-oils.
keyrow's experiment was interesting, but there are still too many variables. Perhaps the HD was a better polish than the 3000 grit. Perhaps there are other additives to the polish that smooth the paint better.
keyrow - I really like your ideal of using the newspaper as a super-fine sandpaper! Can you use this with a polish, or does it deteriorate?
Also - I am impressed that you offer Zaino to your clients. Now that there is ZFX, this can be done in one day. How did you do this before - did you ask the customers to come back, or to leave the car for several days?
Joebob - you are right in saying we use the same procedures and our only difference is that I believe paint will absorb some oil however minute that amount might be.
If I could redo the experiment I guess my only change would be to newspaper a panel, wash, apply something like lemon to one half, rewash and then take light meter readings. Hmmm . . . I wonder if I can talk my brother into allowing me to remove on of his doors?
Automophile - I only used newspaper here because I needed a non oil containing material to remove oxidation. I would NEVER consider doing this in any other situation. There are so many good quality polishes/abrasives out there that using newspaper is absurd. The only place I use it is as a final polish after cleaning all glass with Sprayway cleaner. The ink will not come off the newspaper and smear the glass, but it will come off on your hands so be sure to have a good hand cleaner around!
I have just place my order for ZFX so I have no personal experience with it. If it is everything it is supposed to be, and I do not have any doubts about that, I should be able to complete a car on one day. For now, for those who want this procedure, we go them to pick up the vehicle, do the work, and return it the next afternoon/evening I can get two coats of Zaino on the car the first day, leave it overnight and apply the final coat the next day (usually just after noon).
As a side note: Strangely enough, my biggest selling factor isn't the quality job, or the shine or longevity of Zaino, its that we have a huge water softener on site! I was extremely doubtful about the expense of buying one, but it has paid for itself within one year. The word-of-mouth business I get from having this one item has been phenomenal.
I have been recommending Zaino for my clients for over 2 years now after having proven it to myself on my own cars. No, I have no worries about my clients just ordering it and doing their own cars since most who come to me don't have the time or simply do not want to do their own manual labor, plus there is a little snobbishness factor to consider in being able say "I have my own personal detailer do my car for me."
One final comment: I have been providing my own opinions here, based upon my detailing experience, at NO cost to you, the Town Hall consumer! Just remember there is much truth to the saying "Ya get whatcha pay for."
I haven't been in this discussion group for about 3 months. Looks like the discussion has turned pretty uninteresting except to a few posters. I can assure you that most of us don't give a rats [non-permissible content removed] about oils... Give it up dudes...You've beat the issue to death...
I have used the Z14 plastic cleaner, and it is great. My car has a little plastic wind breaker between the headrests of the rear seats (I break wind in the front seat myself) and nothing really seemed to clean it up well until I ordered and tried the Z14. Now it's practically invisible.
If you have any hard clear plastic windows or household items (like a clear serving tray or icebucket) this is the product to clean it up. Highly recommended.
The glass cleaner is also wonderful, although it is not for regular use, as it contains a fine abrasive. However, every month or two it's great to use to get that film off the inside of the windows.
Even if you do not have leather seats in your car, if you have any leather furniture in your house, you should get a bottle of this product.
In the last month, I have used it on a leather couch and some leather chairs, and the result is wonderful. It makes the leather very soft, and I presume that the moisture agents are very good for the leather. The product is very creamy, and I have found that the best way to apply it is with your bare hands.
Thanx for the info on the plastic cleaner. I just bought an avalanche and if you have seen one the are mostly plastic, now I just need to see if Sal sells it in 55gal drums.
Comments
I have used ZFX last June and a short time ago as trial samples from Sal. I love it. It dries instantly. I have pics in my profile above. Seems like 3 coats is the "saturation" point for the number of applications in one day! ;-))
Winter temps have SUDDENLY arrived here in CT! I have my Zaino order all filled out, but have not sent it in yet.
Wishing all a happy, healthy and peaceful holiday season.
fastdriver
Time to restock w/ ZFX ;-)
Thanks, and Merry Christmas!
What wax?
We haven't used wax in years, ever since we switched to Zaino.
Anyway, if it's freezing where you are, and I presume that you are not talking about applying Zaino in a garage, where it's not freezing and where you might have some control over the temperature, then I think it's too cold to use it.
I'm not sure, as I apply Zaino in the spring and fall for this reason, but my guess is that if it's too cold for you to work without a hat, it's too cold to be messing with the finish on your car. Find a good book and wait for a warmer day.
When you do apply it, you will find that, unless you are using ZFX, (which is new and is a whole other story), you apply the Zaino in a very thin finish, then you wait for it to dry. This time will vary greatly depending on the thickness of the coat you applied, the temperature and the humidity, and may take from one half hour to several hours. (Before ZFX, I just put it on in the evening (in the garage) and then took it off in the morning.)
I suggest this: snuggle up in front of the fire with a good book or a hot babe, put ZFX on your Christmas list, and then go nuts in the spring.
In the meantime, a Merry Christmas to all, and best wishes for a Happy New Year.
Oh, and yes I meant removing the Zaino polish.
God Bless,
Larry
I would like to wish all y'all a very Merry Christmas and a New Year filled with good health, good livin', and shiny cars.
- - Bret - -
PJ
Just a little background... we bought a black 300M in Oct of 2001, and the only thing I've used on it so far is Zymol. I thought Zymol brought out a decent shine, but it was a pain to apply. I hate doing sections at a time, rubbing it in until dry, and wiping it right off. I much prefer the Zaino way of waxing the whole car, and wiping off the wax some time later.
Thus far my favorite wax has been Meguiars Gold Class... which I currently have on my 97 Bonneville... the shine is incredible, and seems to last, especially when using their Gold Class car wash. I starting using this after we bought the 300. Since we've had the 300M, it's only seen a couple of brushless washes, a couple of dealer washes, and me using a soft mitt and the absorber. There are so many shallow scratches in the paint now, I have to wonder what caused them. This is why I am going with 2 coats of Z5. I broke down and went for a full 8 step process... Dawn, Zaino Clay, Dawn, Z1, Z5, Z5, Z2, Z2. I'm currently ready to begin step 6, the second coat of Z5. The claying went pretty good, it did make the surface quite smooth, and I'm glad I did it. I used Z7 mixed with water for the clay lube. However, how in the hell does anyone stretch and refold those clay bars? I was able to get thru the whole car using one bar, which I ripped in half once it flattened, and also was able to "pull and stretch" once. The surface wasn't too rough to begin with, so I was lucky I didn't have to open the second one. And for the advice of putting a shower curtain or garbage bag down under you... heed it. I dropped mine at least four times, even though I was careful because I was fully aware that it should NEVER hit the floor!
I just came in from wiping off the first application of Z1/Z5, and all I can say is WOW! Firstly, it came off so easily, and this was done in an Ohio winter, using a kerosene heater to try and keep the garage around 60. Honestly, more than the shine, my favorite part of using Zaino is that it doesn't make all rubber trim white. As careful as anyone can be, there is no way to prevent a little bit of wax from getting on trim and seals. Also, when waxing around emblems (and the 300M has a few with individual letters) it's almost fruitless to try and remove all the residual wax from around them. The Z5 came off of all of these items without a problem. The shine is good, but as I expected, I am still seeing some of the deeper scratches which I hope coat #2 of Z5 along with 2 coats of Z2 will take care of. Many of the shallow scratches are already gone.
By the way, I've also read many times that you have to make sure and not use too much of Zaino when applying it. Listen to this tip!!! I did good with the Z1, using the "X" applicator trick, only going thru about 1/8 of the bottle, but went thru almost half a bottle of Z5 when also using the "X" tip. Surprisingly, and thankfully, it came off quite easy after sitting for about 6 - 8 hours.
I'll post my feelings once I have the car totally finished, but so far, I can see why so many people have such strong feelings about Zaino. For anyone who is riding the fence (like me for a while), just do it!!!
Thanks to all for the great advice, and Happy Holidays!
Bob
I'm not sure what a 300M is, but Zaino puts a highly reflective, super smooth and very glossy shine on the black paint. I have had a black Lexus since May and I always get questions and (positive) comments about the shine.
You did not mention it, but if you are not also using Z6, get some of that and use it between coats and after a wash. It's really great.
Finally, the new ZFX will now allow us to apply up to 3 coats as fast as we can put it on and take it off, as it eliminates the (sometimes) long drying time, and eliminates the need to let each coat "cure" for 24 hours before applying the next. I have just received some, but have not used it yet; but I am anxious to find some warm weather (I'm also in Ohio, where it is now pretty cold) when I can heighten the gloss with multiple coats of Zaino in just an afternoon.
Happy New Year to all.
And to all, have a very happy New Years !
LOL....Another Zainoholic! Sounds like you followed the directions correctly the FIRST time and did everything right. Just wait until you get a few more coats of Z2 and Z6 on your 300M.
squidd99-
A 300M is a CHRYSLER like my Christine was! You can read all about her in my profile above.
fastdriver
I've used ZFX last June and about a month ago. I don't think the shine is any better- how can it be- but being able to apply 3 coats in one day with no waiting for it to dry is a great advantage. You'll see when you use it.
fastdriver
Can you apply the Z1 and Z2 directly on top of a finish after using the glaze or should it be washed with Dawn first?
The glaze is bound to leave some residue and lubricating oils, so you should Dawn wash before you Z1, etc. Be careful about what glaze you use. I remember reading that one of the 3M products just uses a lot of silicone oil to fill the scratches, but I don't remember which one. Group - any input here?
bandc300m
Welcome - just wait till you get a few more coats on! Next time, just make your "X" a thin one. I used one bottle of Z2 for about 8 -10 applications.
Glazes are like makeup -- All they will do is hide -- NOT Remove -- the scratches and swirls -- Once the glaze is washed the scratches and swirls will re-appear.
Putting Z2 on top of the IHG is not a solution either. The Zaino polish will not bond properly.
As a detailer this is how I eliminate swirl marks:
Use a product like 3M Perfect-It or Meguiar's swirl Remover. They both have very mild abrasives so they work slow, but have the advantage of not harming/removing too much of your paint. 3M's Hand glaze uses an even finer abrasive. You could use it alone, but it would take you far far longer to do the job; use one of the others first and then use this one as your final go over. These products also contain essential oils, not silicone, that will enhance the gloss, detracting from the swirls.
The best tool to apply Swirl Remover is a terry cloth applicator pad, washcloth (a terry cloth towel is too large) or a closed cell foam applicator. On horizontal surfaces apply the swirl remover by rubbing a generous amount into the paint fore and aft. Do not rub in circles, do not rub side to side, only rub front to rear. For vertical surfaces (doors) use an up and down motion. These particular motions are important because a swirl mark is most visible at a 90 degree viewing angle. This is why circular motions are verbotten, thay can be seen from any point. By using motions that are along the line of sight you make any remnants of the swirl invisible.
Once the Swirl Remover begins to haze, use a clean terry cloth towel to buff. Again, proper direction only. You will need to do this several times to make an impact. Your hood alone, by hand, may take as long as an hour and a half depending upon how deep the swirls are. Using a buffer will speed up the process but unless you have experience with one I recommend you avoid using it as an inexperienced hand WILL do more harm than good. HOWEVER, there are two good polishers on the market which will do an excellent job but do not have enough speed to burn the paint:
The Porter Cable Orbital Polisher #7424. Retail about $200, you can easily find one for $150. This is the current "Hot Item". Its only drawback is that it is not ergonomic; your hands, wrists and forearms will know they have had a workout after 3-4 hours with this baby.
I firmly believe the Cyclo Polisher is the BEST POLISHER IN THE WORLD! This is the one we use in my detailing business. It is a bit more expensive but well worth it if you intend to do much polishing. With Zaino you will not have to!
Retail price about $250, you can find them for $200-225.
Remember that you will need to spend another $30-40 or so for the various bonnets/pads that you apply the swirl remover/polish with. Only you can decide if the cost is worth it. Email me if you have any questions.
BTW, here are a couple of sites that offer good information on detailing:
http://www.autopia-carcare.com/noname.html
http://www.topoftheline.com/index.html
Good Luck,
Jim
What is an essential oil? There is no use in leaving the oils from the products you mentioned after the swirls/scratches have been removed or lessened in appearance. The painted surface has no need to be replenished with products that contain "oils".
These oils should be washed off using Dawn so that they do not interfere with the Zaino polymers bonding.
Etech: (I should have stated this in my post 3197)You should try a few coats of Zaino Z5 and see if it fills the scratches/swirls and lessens their appearance to an acceptable level before trying to fix the problem with abrasives.
The ease of applying and removing the Z2/Z5 is unbelievable, and the shine so far is also incredible. The many scratches from whatever are not any better after the 2 coats of Z5. I didn't continue with further coats of Z5 because of the results on the trunk. I had to use some 3M liquid rubbing compound (pad glaze or whatever its called) to remove some deeper scratches from a parking gate. I have been very happy with the results of this combined with the 3M swirl remover (gray liquid), but it did leave the surface a bit dull with a layer of VERY shallow scratches. After the two coats of Z5, I now notice that the trunk is almost perfect, vs. the rest of the car which still has many many shallow scratches in it.
I don't know if Fastdriver agrees, but I think the paint on the 300's is soft when new. I've heard this a few time on other boards. We got a few HUGE chips the first month in odd places (center of the hood, in front of the sunroof) and very few since (and these very few are tiny, right on the front of the hood). I suspect my annoying shallow scratches occurred during the dealer prep. I never thought back then to refuse that... but will make sure to do just that from now on after reading all the postings on here (along with telling them to keep their dealer name off!)
Now... a few questions... you guys are wonderful with your advice, by the way!
1. Is there harm in not using the Z6 between coats even though I wait the 24 hrs.? I didn't think to order this with my initial order.
2. Now that I'm going crazy with Z5/Z2, what harm is there in using this on top of a surface which didn't have Z1 applied? (areas like headlights, wipers, etc)
3. Can I use Z1 without harming the lower coats whenever I desire before applying the future coats of Z2, for the areas I forgot to put the Z1 on?
4. If I get a ton of ambition and decide to rub the entire car out (minus the perfect trunk), how would I go about removing all this Zaino work I've put into it over the past week? From what I understand, Dawn does not remove Zaino.
FYI... I NEVER expected Zaino to remove these shallow scratches, I still believe that nothing comes easy. There is no way I thought the incredibly easy process of applying/removing Zaino would get rid of these, unless it actually contained black paint to fill these in. From up to a foot away... the shine is INCREDIBLE, better than any other wax I've used. And, from the way the trunk came out, I see that the really shallow scratches and swirls are totally removed by Z5.
Happy New Year to All!!!
Bob
Here is a quote from Motorhead.com: "Polish restores valuable oils to the paint, eliminates fine scratches and creates a high gloss not possible with waxes. Polishing is nourishing the paint and hiding hairline scratches. Polishes also restore the oils which washing, age, sun, rain and air (smog) have leached out of the paint."
Oils are necessary to keeping paint fresh and healthy. They are not something to be washed away.
1. No. The use of Z6 is always optional. It's great after the final coat, and is often used between coats and also used on the applicator to aid in the application of z2 or z5. Not ordering it was a mistake, because you will find that you will use it more than the others. When the weather warms up again, and you wash your car more often, you will find that you use it after every wash. It does something to the z2 to smooth it out and seems to enhance the optical properties, if that is possible.
2. No harm. Nothing made by Zaino will harm your car. The question is: will it do any good. Putting it on headlights and other glass and plastic surfaces is something which is done a lot. I put it right over the tail lights and the plastic shield that covers the headlight assembly on my car. Without z1, it might not bond and might not last long, but it will cause no harm. The advantage of having these surfaces protected is for ease in cleaning, since you can't tell if they are highly reflective anyway. I don't know why you would want to put it on your wipers. It's not made for rubber, and my guess is that it might impair their ability to wipe. Unless you mean the wiper ARM, but most wiper arms are matt black, and again there's not much point there. Finally, some people use it on the windows and windshield and claim it beads water like Rain-X. Others here have said don't bother. I have not tried this, so you are on you own there.
3. Yes. You can use z1 anytime. If you think you missed spots, go ahead and re-do the whole car or the spots you missed. It's the Z1 which bonds to the paint; without it, the z2 or z5 will come off rather quickly. Otherwise, the rule seems to be that you should apply z1 at least once a year, and maybe twice a year, especially if your car is not garaged. More than 2 times a year is not needed and is just a waste of the product. The extra z1 will not remove the other z products or detract from the shine/finish in any way.
4. Jeez, you have a lot of time on your hands. Yes, Dawn does not remove Zaino. If you rub out the whole car as you describe, (with abrasive polishes) I would just suggest you start all over: Dawn once or twice, maybe clay that bad boy, then start with the z1 and work your way up. My guess is that the abrasive polishes you use to rub out the scratch marks will rub off the zaino. I expect you will get right down to the bare paint, more or less. I'd start again with z1, and I'd get some ZFX so that I could build up 3 new coats of z2 one right after the other without waiting a day for each coat to cure. (This 300 thing with the soft paint must be some hell of a car.)
FINALLY, you say: "the shine is INCREDIBLE, better than any other wax I've used. . ." You need to get the terminology right. Yes the shine is incredible, but you should say that Zaino is better "than any wax I've used." By use of the word "other" you classify Zaino as a wax. Zaino is not a wax, it's a polymer finish used instead of a wax. That's what the Dawn is for. Throw out your old waxes. You won't need them any more.
Happy new year.
Squidd
"Z-16 PERFECT TIRE GLOSS
For many years I have been dissatisfied with the tire dressings on the market. They are loaded with silicone oil. They are very greasy, oily and messy. They attract dirt and dust like a magnet, have no UV protection, can cause tire deterioration, give an unrealistic gloss and wash off as soon as the tire gets wet. The tire dressing, always slings and gets onto the wheels and surrounding paint surface and causes discoloration and staining. I have yet to find one benefit to using this type of product. Z-16 Perfect Tire Gloss is a non-oily, non-greasy, rubber protectant and finishing treatment. Its unique formula with Ultra-Gard™ UV(40) and antistatic properties prevent drying, cracking, browning and repels dust and dirt. Z-16 leaves an incredibly durable, water repellent, perfect looking satin finish, that's only slightly glossy and dry to the touch. Use on all exterior rubber, tires, moldings, plastic trim, weatherstripping, underhood hoses and more. Just wet a sponge with Z-16 and apply to the surface to be treated and let dry. It will last thru rain and multiple washings. Z-16 is very durable and will last an average of 3 to 4 weeks on an outdoor car. Z-16 is not recommended for interior seats or vinyl tops."
I have a RAV4 which has plastic cladding on the sides as well as plastic bumpers. Store-bought dressings last about one day. I have seen a product called "Forever Black," which is a dye, not just a dressing, but have not used it yet. As my car lived in Florida from 96 to 2001, the black plastic parts are pretty worn from the sun. I suspect I need that dye stuff, rather than just a dressing that will only last a few weeks.
If anyone has any experience with Z16 or with "Forever Black" (I'm pretty sure that's the name), please let us know.
The plastic parts of our cars need your help.
Thanks, and Happy New Year.
Squidd
Maybe you should give Sal Zaino a call to explain it to you or go to the Autopia forums and ask about whether or not oils are needed to feed the paint.
I well know that Zaino does not contain any oils since I have been using it for years on my own vehicles and HIGHLY recommending it to my customers. Zaino is a "protectant," not a polish in the technical detailing definition in which we are using the word. The job of a polish is to prepare the paint for whatever protective coating one wishes to use and as such the oils they contain DO help restore the paint's original luster. Zaino is 99.9% optically perfect and as such it cannot make an oxidized/hazed/faded paint look good. Beneath the clear protection Zaino provides you will still see whatever condition paint you started with. It requires a properly prepared surface to bond to make that incredible shine we all love so much.
If you do not wish to use oils to restore those lost by normal exposure to the elements, have at it. But there is no myth here. Attend a quality Concours car show and ask if they use oils to keep the paint's luster at its maximum. You bet they do!
If I didn't restore those "lost" oils as a part of my detailing process I would soon lose every customer I have as no one would pay me $80-100 just to slop on some type of wax over dull looking paint. And they would be right in doing so because although their paint would be "protected" they would still see dull paint.
To everyone else here, I try to educate so we all can be proud of the way our cars look; however I readily admit I am not GOD and do not know absolutely everything there is to know about detailing, but I am convinced about the benefits of restoring the lost oils. I freely provide what information I do know, and maybe that is exactly what it is worth. But please do yourselves a favor by checking out the information from several different sources (detailing sites, wax manufacturers sites, the list of ingredients used by different wax/polish manufacturers, detailing books, etc.) and then decide for yourselves. As for me, I will not continue this unproductive thread.
Keep those vehicles looking good and I wish you all a happy and productive New Year!
Jim
Sal does not state preparing the paint is a waste of time nor am I saying that or implying that. I have never stated that you can slop on Zaino over dull looking paint. In fact I do not recommend Zaino for highly oxidized or paint finishes in really bad shape until the paint is fixed using abrasive type compounds/polishes. But again, once the paint is "repaired" using these type of products it should be washed with Dawn to remove leftover oils before applying Zaino polish. If you are using regular waxes (which contain oils) instead of Zaino you can skip the Dawn wash.
It is the abrasives that do the work of removing oxidized paint, swirls and small scratches. The oils are simply used as fillers and a product medium for the abrasives. These oils that are left over must be removed before applying Zaino polish.
Sal has stated many times that after using a product like 3M Swirl Remover you must wash with Dawn to remove the oils that are in the product; otherwise the Zaino polish will not bond properly. You are correct that Zaino is not technically a polish in the true sense of the word...not because it does not contain oils but because it contains no abrasives.
Here is what someone highly regarded on Autopia says concerning feeding oils, "Bull is right, the "oils" are makeup , but do serve one function besides a "marketing of the product". They have solvents and mild polishing qualities that aid in preparing the surface for you final protectant. As far as putting "oils" in the paint, no way! It is chemically impossible to do so, they may lay on top or go down into the porosity of the clears, but are not part of the structure and will weaken the molecular chain over time if allowed to stay there."
1. Polishing - Yes! I agree that you must apply the polish as you say to minimize visbilty of tiny scratches. However, then you recommend an orbital polisher. Doesn't this just make lots of tiny circles that will creat visible swirl marks?
2. Oils - I tended to believe this when cars were still painted with oil-based enamel paints. Some old-timers even used to wipe their cars down with kerosene to restore color and shine to old paint. However, new cars are now painted with inorganic laquers and water-based paints. I'm not sure that oils apply any longer. Comments?
I'm one of those "old-timers" that used to wash my cars with a water/kerosene mix (try keeping those two liquids mixed together). You are correct that it did bring out the colors and shine of oil based paints. Of course, the shine didn't last very long, but it made the cars look "shiny" for a while. This mixture also attracted dirt and dust. I wouldn't dare try that mixture on any car that's been manufactured in the last 15 years.
Although for many years I used an orbital buffer when I used "regular" waxes, if you don't use a "light hand" or if you leave the buffer on one particular spot for long, you will do more damage than good. With the use of Zaino, I can't see where a power buffer would be of any bennefit whatsoever.
I just cannot imagine spending all that time and effort to wax a car, when a better result is available without all the hard buffing. That's why the machines were invented, to do some of the work required by waxing. You take out the work, and you eliminate the need for the machine.
I have an orbital buffer I bought years ago, and if I didn't have a marble floor in my bathroom, I would have thrown it out a long time ago. I sure would not use it on a car.
The Test:
We gave the car a quick wash with Dawn and dried it. The trunk lid was masked off into two equal areas. On one side I used Zymol HD Cleanse and my Cyclo Polisher to remove old oxidized paint and replenish lost oils. I chose Zymol because their website says, "Hd-Cleanse, the first step of the Zymol 2-step process, provides deep cleaning without removing precious paint, RESTORES VALUABLE OILS to the paint, eliminates fine scratches and creates an incredible high gloss not possible with ordinary polishes or waxes" [emphasis mine]. The site also lists the ingredients: "Contains Montan Oil, Apricot Kernel Oil, Lemon Seed Oil, Coconut Oil, Cetyl Esters, Cetyl Cocoamide (derived from coconut oil), Cocoamide, Citric Acid (from rose hips), Kapolite."
For the other half I made my own newspaper (3000 grit sandpaper) pad to fit the Cyclo Polisher [Red Green would have been proud] and went at it to remove the old oxidized paint. Both sides were then rewashed with Dawn to remove excess oils and/or bits of newspaper and dried using a California Water Blade and a P21S synthetic chamois.
Results:
We used my brother's light meter, he's an amateur photographer, to measure the reflected light coming off the two surfaces. We maintained the same viewing angle by placing the light meter on a tripod, and having the car under fluorescent lighting. The light meter indicated that 2/3 f/stop less light was needed from the Zymoled side to make the photo indicating that more light was being reflected from it (it was shinier) than the non-oiled side.
While one experiment does absolutely prove oils are necessary to restore paint to its "original" condition, it is good enough for me and I will continue to use oil containing products. We each will have to draw our own conclusions.
Your test does not prove one way or another whether oils are necessary for a painted surface. All the experts I have communicated with say they are absolutely not necessary in terms of "feeding" or "replenishing" the paint. You do need something to carry the abrasives and most manufacturers use oils because it is effective and a "safe" way to carry the abrasives and whatever remaining oils left on the surface leave a nice initial gloss.
Cured paint cannot absorb oils! In fact oils can damage the paint substrate. Please call or email Sal Zaino or any reputable auto paint manufacturer...not Zymol that sells waxes and uses this "replenishing oils" marketing technique. In your test above you even washed the oils off after using the Zymol HD cleanse and said the surface looked great...even after you washed off these precious oils. At this point it would be the perfect time to apply the Zaino Polish because now you have removed the oils that would have interfered with Zaino's bonding abilities.
You wrote,"Hd-Cleanse, the first step of the Zymol 2-step process, provides deep cleaning without removing precious paint, RESTORES VALUABLE OILS to the paint, eliminates fine scratches and creates an incredible high gloss not possible with ordinary polishes or waxes."
The restoring valuable oils is nonsense as well as the deep cleaning without removing paint. The only possible way to remove oxidation is by removing paint...either chemically or with abrasives. If you believe otherwise please explain how you can remove oxidation without removing paint. BTW, Kapolite is abrasive.[Soft Abrasive Kapolite SF Kaopolite, Inc.] Many companies are not truthful about how their products work.
I don't see how 3000 Grit sandpaper is comparable to what might be in the Zymol HD cleanse or that using 3000 grit sandpaper is even a safe, proper way to polish a car so your results have no meaning except to say using Zymol HD cleanse works better than 3000 Grit Sandpaper.
A test I would like you to do is to do a whole hood with the HD cleanse using any method you prefer. After the surface has been prepared doing this...wash one half of the hood with a Dawn wash and leave the other half alone. Next apply the Zaino polish(protectant) on both sides and do tests of longevity. The side you do not wash off the oils will initially have a slightly higher gloss(but not as optically clear) than with Zaino alone due to these oils. The downside is it will have a much shorter longevity.
As a professional detailer your customers are probably more interested in instant gratification by seeing a great shine rather than seeing the shine lasts for many weeks and even months.
I would think that what we need is to get all this oil and stuff off the car, and then apply a finish that has high optical properties that will bond to the paint and not fall right off. I think that's what the Zaino polymer products do.
I wouldn't oil up my car any more than I would oil up myself at the beach, as good as that would look.
If and when I buy another car, I'll specify absolutely no prep work on the painted surface. I'll then wash with dawn and clay the car myself. And then, I'll apply Zaino.
Right now, my car is half coated in "earth tones". Dust and dirt on the lower panels. The upper panels are actually fairly clean and show the Zaino shine. I have 4 coats of Zaino on the car and haven't had a chance to wash it for well over a month now. The upper panels are exposed to the high winds which have blown the dust away (thanks to Zaino's Z6 anti-static properties). The lower panels don't get as much wind, and a residual amount of dirt from rain puddles and road salts remains on the car. But you can easily tell that there is a great shine under the dirt.
Joebob says, "but you seem to be missing my point completely." And vice versa. I washed off the EXCESS oil (i.e. those not "absorbed" into the paint) as I clearly stated. Obviously any remaining oil that produces a film on the paint's surface would hinder any type of wax from bonding. I have never stated otherwise. And I have spoken with paint manufacturers reps since being a detailer demands that one know what one is doing and I have yet to get a straight answer about whether oils are/are not beneficial, especially with regards to German paints. If just one knowledgeable person would tell me oils are useless I would stop using (and paying for) the stuff!
I DO NOT recommend using newspaper for any type of polishing other than windows. I used newspaper for my experiment because it was the only product I could quickly find that did not contain oils but would remove oxidized paint without causing harmful swirl marks. All other products (Meguiars, Mothers, Zymol, etc.) do contain oils. If you know of something that is comparable to HD Cleanse but does not contain oils I would be very interested in reading the results of your own experiment. The point I am trying to make from the results of the experiment is that although both Zymol and newspaper remove oxidized paint, the oil containing product did a better job of producing a glossy surface IN PREPARATION for the final wax/polymer protectant than no-oil products. If the statement that, "Cured paint cannot absorb oils!" is correct would you please explain why the oiled side reflected more light than the no-oil side? The fact that the "oiled" side had a greater shine AFTER washing the excess oil off indicates to me that this paint did absorb, if that is the proper term, some of the oil. Otherwise with both sides now having "clean" paint the light meter should have given the exact same f/stop reading. BTW, where did the idea that I stopped after the polishing phase and did not finish the job by Zainoing the car come from? I just didn't include it as this very important step has no bearing upon the current discussion of replenishing oils. You all must think I am an incredibly ignorant/incompetent detailer to have omitted protecting the paint after taking all this time to prepare it in the first place.
As for the Zymol HD Cleanse, the info I included came directly off their web site and it did not include any further explanation (always a dangerous thing, as is accepting everything a seller says as true). Had you spoken to one of their reps as I have then you would understand that the "precious paint" they refer to as not being removed is the unoxidized paint beneath the top dull layer which the HD Cleanse DOES remove. I agree they should have stated it better. And yes I do know that Kapolite is an abrasive; my mistake was in assuming we all realized this and therefore I didn't think it need mentioning. If Zymol truly did not remove the oxidized layer it would be a total waste of time and money to use it.
Your statement that, "As a professional detailer your customers are probably more interested in instant gratification by seeing a great shine rather than seeing the shine lasts for many weeks and even months" is TOTALLY false and very insulting. I am a detailer because I love the job! Many of my clients are close personal friends who I would never cheat or knowingly give false information to. This is why I recommend Zaino to all my clients and use it on my own vehicles as well. I also give a personal guarantee that with the purchase of the full Zaino treatment (wash, clay, wash, polish, Z1, then 3 coats of Z2) I will redo the entire procedure if water fails to bead for 3 full months. In the three years I have offered this guarantee I have not had anyone make a claim. I willingly teach my customers as much as they want to know about detailing so I do not understand your need to make such an unfounded and derogatory statement. I have only tried to provide the best information and detailing methods I know. If I am doing something incorrectly I will happily change and be forever grateful to whomever teaches me a better method.
And if "All the experts" you know refers to the Autopia forum then you are relying on their OPINIONS just as I have been posting mine. I also find it curious that you refer to that group in particular since Zaino is anathema to most of them. The majority opinion is that Meguiars is THE wax while all others are merely "also rans." Some of them are very knowledgeable people, however, I wouldn't bet my business on their opinions alone.
Finally, since it is obvious that no one intends to change his mind I will no longer keep this thread going. The result of my experiment is good enough for me to continue using polishes with oils for more than their lubricating properties. Do or do not "replenish lost oils" at your own discretion.
I apologize for taking up so much space and now return you to the real topic here: how great Zaino is!
Klasse and Zaino are the 2 most talked about car care products there.
Zaino is very popular among many Autopia members...more than Meguiars...maybe you should go there and post about applying Zaino over oil based products and see what kind of responses you get.
Using their Topic Search engine came up with the following results: [Note the * is wildcard to get more complete results]
Klasse; - Displaying Topics 1 to 25 of 1920
Zaino* Or Zanio*; Displaying Topics 1 to 25 of 1575
Meguire* OR Meguiar*; Displaying Topics 1 to 25 of 1155
This whole stupid disagreement started when I told you that after using an abrasive product or a product containing oils that you MUST wash off the oils from these other products before applying Zaino polish so that it will bond properly. Squidd99 seems to have picked up right away on that. Why can't you?
I will soon post some e-mailed responses from Sal concerning the subjects of "feeding", "replenishing" paints with oils and leaving oils on the surface with regard to Zaino.
Your methodology is not consistent: How can you possibly say that using newspaper has the EXACT same abrasive strength as what is in the HD cleanse?
You write, "And vice versa. I washed off the EXCESS oil (i.e. those not "absorbed" into the paint)"
Correction...you washed off all the oils on the paint if you did a thorough Dawn wash since cured paint cannot absorb oils.
You write,"If just one knowledgeable person would tell me oils are useless I would stop using (and paying for) the stuff!"
All fine abrasive products use some kind of oils in them. If you are buying more expensive abrasive type products because they contain exotic oils then you shouldn't. 3M has a very high quality line of polishes and even has guides explaining the type of conditions they should be used and how aggressive they are. I have stated this over and over that it is the abrasives that actually do the work...the oils should be washed off before using Zaino.
I am not trying to insult you with regard to customers. Most people who go to professional detailers are too lazy or busy to do it themselves. As long as the finish looks shiny and clean after they pick up their car they will generally be satisfied. It is great that your customers take a personal interest in what you do and the products that you use. They are not the typical customers that generally use detailers. It is commendable that you offer the 3 month guaranty. I am curious about one thing though..." Z1, then 3 coats of Z2 "
With ZFX this is something that can easily be achieved. Before ZFX, however, to do three coats of Zaino would require 6 hours waiting time(under the best of conditions-temperature over 70 degrees) between coats. This would require you keep the car overnight. Do you have many customers that could do this?
I have repeatedly stated that I wash off all EXCESS oil before applying any type of protectant. Why don't you read my entire post rather than focusing on what you don't like?
The Autopia forum I read is titled:
Auto-Detailing
Secrets of the Experts
Message Board
What site are you refering to?
"I will soon post some e-mailed responses from Sal concerning the subjects of "feeding", "replenishing" paints with oils and leaving oils on the surface with regard to Zaino."
I look forward to reading them to see if there is actually anything that differs from my own conversations with him. Had you actually read my posts you would realize that I DO NOT and NEVER HAVE advised "leaving oils on the surface" of the paint. I do believe that some of the oils is "absorbed" into the paint as my experiment seem to indicate. But all EXCESS oil is always washed away. Nice try, but I will not allow you to misrepresent what I am saying.
If there is anyone else out there that has some knowledge of this topic please email me directly, otherwise we need to start a new topic as I believe most who read this board couldn't care less as long as Zaino continues to produce that extreme shine we all love. This current thread is just nit picking between people who are very anal about car care.
"Your methodology is not consistent: How can you possibly say that using newspaper has the EXACT same abrasive strength as what is in the HD cleanse?"
I was not concerned with whether they have the exact same abrasive strength, just that both sides of the trunk lid had all oxidized paint removed and no swirl marks to degrade the appearance. I seriously doubt that newspaper is capable of making any significant pitting or scratching.
"Correction...you washed off all the oils on the paint if you did a thorough Dawn wash since cured paint cannot absorb oils."
That seem to be the major point of contention between us. I do not know that paint cannot absorb a minute amount of oil. My experiment seems to indicate that it can. If I am wrong then I do not understand the experiment's result as I tried to keep all else uniform.
If someone can straighten this whole mess out I would be very grateful and if necessary would readily admit to being wrong. As I have previously said, I am not GOD and do not know absolutely everything there is to know about detailing. The day I stop learning will be the day I die.
Peace everyone.
The link you originally provided in post #3198 will get you there too.
I am not trying to misrepresent what you are saying. I am simply stating that paint does not absorb oil and oil is not beneficial.
It was many posts down the line that you actually "stated" that you wash with Dawn after using an oil based product. You did this in your experiment(which perplexed me) but before that post you never stated that the (as you call it) "excess" oils should be removed.
So as long as you are doing this then you are doing it the exact same way as I. The only difference is that I believe all the oils are removed and you don't.
keyrow's experiment was interesting, but there are still too many variables. Perhaps the HD was a better polish than the 3000 grit. Perhaps there are other additives to the polish that smooth the paint better.
keyrow - I really like your ideal of using the newspaper as a super-fine sandpaper! Can you use this with a polish, or does it deteriorate?
Also - I am impressed that you offer Zaino to your clients. Now that there is ZFX, this can be done in one day. How did you do this before - did you ask the customers to come back, or to leave the car for several days?
If I could redo the experiment I guess my only change would be to newspaper a panel, wash, apply something like lemon to one half, rewash and then take light meter readings. Hmmm . . . I wonder if I can talk my brother into allowing me to remove on of his doors?
Automophile - I only used newspaper here because I needed a non oil containing material to remove oxidation. I would NEVER consider doing this in any other situation. There are so many good quality polishes/abrasives out there that using newspaper is absurd. The only place I use it is as a final polish after cleaning all glass with Sprayway cleaner. The ink will not come off the newspaper and smear the glass, but it will come off on your hands so be sure to have a good hand cleaner around!
I have just place my order for ZFX so I have no personal experience with it. If it is everything it is supposed to be, and I do not have any doubts about that, I should be able to complete a car on one day. For now, for those who want this procedure, we go them to pick up the vehicle, do the work, and return it the next afternoon/evening I can get two coats of Zaino on the car the first day, leave it overnight and apply the final coat the next day (usually just after noon).
As a side note: Strangely enough, my biggest selling factor isn't the quality job, or the shine or longevity of Zaino, its that we have a huge water softener on site! I was extremely doubtful about the expense of buying one, but it has paid for itself within one year. The word-of-mouth business I get from having this one item has been phenomenal.
I have been recommending Zaino for my clients for over 2 years now after having proven it to myself on my own cars. No, I have no worries about my clients just ordering it and doing their own cars since most who come to me don't have the time or simply do not want to do their own manual labor, plus there is a little snobbishness factor to consider in being able say "I have my own personal detailer do my car for me."
One final comment: I have been providing my own opinions here, based upon my detailing experience, at NO cost to you, the Town Hall consumer! Just remember there is much truth to the saying "Ya get whatcha pay for."
Ah.... a man of few words! Well said! On with ZAINO! ;-))
fastdriver
If you have any hard clear plastic windows or household items (like a clear serving tray or icebucket) this is the product to clean it up. Highly recommended.
The glass cleaner is also wonderful, although it is not for regular use, as it contains a fine abrasive. However, every month or two it's great to use to get that film off the inside of the windows.
Order them both. Sal needs the money.
Sincerely,
The Topic Hijacker!
In the last month, I have used it on a leather couch and some leather chairs, and the result is wonderful. It makes the leather very soft, and I presume that the moisture agents are very good for the leather. The product is very creamy, and I have found that the best way to apply it is with your bare hands.
Good Stuff, in the house and in the car.