Lease Questions - Ask Here

CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

You're welcome, cstabile. Dealer invoice does not have anything to do with the incentives that are available on vehicles. When I stated that you should be able to purchase a new Passat within a couple hundred dollars above or below dealer invoice, I was assuming that the dealer would keep a couple hundred dollars from the dealer incentive as profit on your deal. They would also get to keep their dealer holdback, but given all of the expenses that dealers have they certainly would not be making a killing on this sort of deal.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Hi footie. Let me begin by saying that Toyota's current lease program is only scheduled to run through Monday. If you plan on leasing after that, their numbers may be different. Toyota is supporting Matrix leases in many regions this month. I am not sure of their exact lease money factor for this car in their Central Atlantic region, but I think that it is fairly safe to assume that their 3 year factor for Tier 1 customers is very close to the .00172 that they have available in many other areas. Toyota Financial Services' 3 year 15,000 miles per residual values for the 2003 Matrix are presently 54% for the 2WD and 56% for the 4WD model.

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P.S. I just noticed that you mentioned Mass. in your post as well. The aforementioned money factor is definitely available there.

cstabile · February 2003

Thanks Car_Man, your response is very helpful.

arh11 · February 2003

I am quickly approaching the end of my lease on my 2000 Jeep Wrangler Sahara. I want to buy the vehicle (or one very similar - I just dread the shopping!), however am running into difficulty with the bank. The buyout they are offering is 15,543.02 plus tax and fees (total 17,066.66). This price is high for retail, so I'd think they could give me a better deal. I was told that the price is not negotiable. Any suggestions?? The vehicle is in great shape, and about 9,000 under mileage.

rivertown · February 2003

Were it me, I'd post on 'Town Hall Smart Shopper Real-World Trade-In Values' to get a solid sense of what the Jeep is really worth and then go from there.

If the bank's really high, talking with a supervisor might get you a better price; but, if you're really in a 'take it or leave it' spot, leaving it isn't a bad option in this slow car market. Let 'em throw you in the briar patch, LOL.

the_heidi · February 2003

I am looking at a 2003 Lexus RX 300 AWD. I was given a lease price of $459 a month for 39 months, 12,000 miles a year. $300 acquisition fee is the only money down. MSRP is $39,636 residual is $21,403.

eswanborg · February 2003

Thanks for the info car_man. Any idea what the residual value would be on an EX with the DVD entertainment system? Thanks to your info I finally feel like I understand (or am starting to understand) what goes into a good lease deal. Thanks!!

lmm540i · February 2003

Car_man

I read in an earlier post that the BMWFS Feb. money factor on an x-5 was .00235 with a 63% residual. Please let me know if this is still correct and if there will be a change in March. Thanks

rivertown · February 2003

Good to go now with your Sahara?

I'm meddling from here, but . . . .
Were it me, before I did anything else, like call the bank for instance, I'd clean up the Jeep real well and take a bunch of pictures, especially of the repaired stuff - in case there's hassle about 'wear and tear'. LOL, a bunch of sides to a Jeep with two tops - inside X 2, outside driver's side, passenger's side, front, back, top, bottom, engine compartment, etc.; so, that's a roll or two of film.
Then, I'd let go of the Jeep emotionally. LOL, if the banker's any good at all, he'll know within $25 what the sentimental value is to you. So, reduce that to do your pocketbook a favor.
Then, I'd carefully read the lease agreement.
Then, I'd call the bank.

FWIW, I think you're in a strong position here. From the bank's point of view, they can sell the Jeep to you at the figure Terry gave you and do some more business or, LOL, they can sell the Jeep to someone else for about the same money and, instead of doing some more business, store it, market it, etc. If the lease agreement provides for credit for unused miles, you can even walk off with some cash to buy what you want in a buyer's car market.

ogbuffguy · February 2003

i live in southern california, i was thinking about a toyota camry V6 LE, and a toyota tacoma V6 SR5, 15k/36 months, thanks

ncdream · February 2003

CarMan...

My local Lexus dealer here in NC is offering me a money factor of .00189 on a 39 month lease, I have read in this forum where you stated the MF on a ES300 at .00180...should I be getting the same .00180?? or is the dealer looking to boost his deal?? They are also charging for a $600 acquisition fee thru LFS...but are also charging a $549 doc fee. Is this not just pure margin for them??? They say this can't be negotiated?? What do you think?? As always...thanks for your help!!

jhk_db · February 2003

Car_man: Thanks for the response (#5709). The VW dealer claims the money factor is .00155 and the residual is 54% (as opposed to .00140 and 55%). I am inclined to think they are just trying to increase their profit in a way that avoids direct negotiation (e.g., on the sales price of the car). I would like to ask the dealer to show me where they are getting their numbers from-- is there something specific I can ask them to produce? Thanks.

arh11 · February 2003

Thanks so much for the advice. Am I good to go?? Perhaps I'm a bit indecisive, but not really. I'll probably end up buying it even if they don't come down - for what I'd save buying the same thing from my dealer, I'd have to pay for title and registration (NY state love to charge it's residents!! :-) Not to mention just the hassle of shopping for a car whose history I don't know.

I just hope that the bank will come down. From a business perspective, it seems silly of them not to. While my next Jeep won't be a lease, my next lease (when I grow up...) will be through the manufacturer. They seem to have a lot more room to move, and care a little more about gaining loyalty (kind of cynical, especially coming from a banker!)

Sentiment aside, I'll still be driving a Wrangler in two months, the question that remains is will it be mine, or a new, stripped down model?

By the way, the bank rep said "if you are willing to get a new one for $40 more a month, then I'd do that". Do you think he's bluffing or really has no room to negotiate??

vikd · February 2003

With regards to monthly payment amount, is it better to lease a car with a higher or lower residual? Are there advantages to leasing a car with a low residual? The reason I ask is that I am entertaining the idea of leasing (or purchasing, havent decided yet) an '03 Max SE which (just guessing) will probably have a low residual since the new body style '04's will be released any time now which will probably not help resell very much. Any advice/suggestions would be appreciated. Also, if you have specifics as far as actual res. and mf. for this veh for 39/12 it would be great!

Regards... Vikd

CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

You're welcome, cstabile. I am glad that I was able to help you out.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Hi arh11. Some banks will negotiate lease-end purchase prices with their lessees and others will not. You mentioned in your post that you already called your bank and they are not willing to lower their purchase option price. It often turns out that consumers' initial contacts at banks do not have the authority to negotiate purchase prices. You may have more success in negotiating your truck's price if you work your way up the ladder a few rungs. It's worth a shot, the worst they can do is say no.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Hello the_heidi. Let's take a look at the deal that you were offered. According to my calculations, in order to arrive at a monthly lease payment of $459 on a 39 month, 12,000 miles per year, lease of a 2003 Lexus RX 300 AWD without Navigation with an MSRP of $39,636, your dealer would have to be charging you slightly over $36,000 for it. This is assuming that your dealer is using Lexus Financial Services' base lease program. If this is indeed the price that they are selling you this truck for, it is likely a couple hundred dollars above dealer invoice. If you agree to lease a vehicle through them, your dealer is obligated to tell you its selling price. So make sure to find out exactly what this truck's capitalized cost is before finalizing your deal. Overall, it looks to me as though this is a reasonable offer.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

No problem, eswanborg. 2003 Honda Pilots with the Rear Entertainment System that are leased through AHFC currently have residual values that are 2% below the ones that I provided you with earlier.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Hi lmm540i. The lease money factor and residual value data that you posted in your message is correct if you were to lease a 2003 BMW X5 3.0i or 4.4i through BMW Financial Services for 3 years with 10,000 miles per prior to February 28th. Their money factors and residual values for other terms and mileage allowances will be different. It is difficult to say what BMW's March lease program will be like at this point. Dealers often do not even know the specifics of manufacturers' future incentives and lease programs until they are officially announced. If I had to guess, I would say that BMW's March lease parameters for this model will be fairly similar to their February numbers, but it is difficult to say what will happen for certain.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Thanks for the additional information, ogbuffguy. It sounds to me as though you are in Toyota's Los Angeles region. If that is the case, then you are eligible for special lease money factors on the 2003 Camry, but not on the Tacoma. If you were to lease a 2003 Toyota Camry through Toyota Financial Services in your area prior to March 3rd for 3 years with 15,000 miles per, their Tier 1 base lease money factor and residual value should be .00165 and 53%, respectively. If you were to do an otherwise identical lease of a 2003 Tacoma Regular Cab 2WD (let me know if you are interested in a different model), their base lease money factor and residual should be .00230 and 51%, respectively.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Hey ncdream. Manufacturers' lease money factors usually vary by model and term. The lease money factor that you were quoted is right on the money if you were to lease a 2003 Lexus RX 300 2WD through Lexus Financial Services right now for 39 months. LFS charges a $600 acquisition fee on all of its leases, so your dealer is being very straightforward with that charge as well. The $549 doc fee sounds as though it is a little on the high side to me. This is essentially pure profit for your dealer. Of course, they have to make some money on deals in order to pay their expenses and keep the doors open, but you need to look at your deal as a whole. If you feel as though the total price that they are charging you for this RX 300, including the doc fee, is reasonable then don't worry about how they break it down. If not, then you may want to comparison shop at another dealer or two. Given the fact that Lexus is introducing a new version of this truck in a couple of months, there should be plenty of room for negotiation on the 2003 RX 300 right now.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

You're welcome, jhk_db. I hate to break it to you, but either your dealer is not running this lease through Volkswagen Credit, or they are not telling you the truth. VW Credit has a very very simple lease program going on right now. All of their models, excluding the Beetle Convertible and the Eurovan Camper, have a base lease money factor of .00140 for leases of up to 39 months in length. So there is no way that there could be any confusion about this rate. I just double checked and VW Credit's residual value for a 3 year 15,000 miles per lease of a 2003 Passat Wagon GLX 2.8 4Motion is definitely 55% through March 3rd. VW Credit sends out bulletins with this information on them, you could ask them to show you these papers. However, it may just be easier to shop around a little bit until you find a dealer who isn't going to play games with you.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Hey vikd. As far as monthly lease payments go, the higher the residual value the better. Residuals determine the amount of depreciation that you as a lessee pay over the length of your lease. The higher your vehicle's residual value is, the less depreciation you as a lessee have to pay each month. It is true that the 2003 Nissan Maxima definitely will have a lower residual value than the 2004 model will when it is initially introduced. However, Nissan is providing lease money factor support and lease cash on the '03 Maxima that they are using to buy down the monthly lease payment. Most likely, the 2004 version of this car will not have any support available on it when it is initially introduced. Combine that with the fact that you will have a much easier time negotiating a low price on an '03 Maxima than you will have on an '04 when it first hits showrooms I suspect that you will be able to lease a 2003 model for less than a 2004 for a while. Of course, this is hypothetically speaking because Nissan has not released any information on the '04 Maxima's lease program.

If you were to lease a 2003 Nissan Maxima through Nissan Motor Acceptance Corp. right now for 39 months with 12,000 miles per year, their base lease money factor is .00204. Their corresponding residual values would be 49% for the 2003 Maxima GXE, 51% for the 2003 Maxima SE, & 53% for the 2003 Maxima GLE. In addition to their special lease program, Nissan is currently providing $500 lease cash on this car that may be sued to lower its capitalized cost.

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vikd · February 2003

Just as a follow up question...is ther any advantages to leasing a veh that will have a low residual value? The only advantage I can guess at is that it would be cheaper/easier to refi if you wanted to buy it at lease end? Does this sound right? Any other advantages? Thanks much for the help. I really like the '03 Max (better than the '04) but dont want to be in a bad position on it at lease end. Basically, I'd still like to have some (good) options. Thanks again!

Regards... Vikd

rivertown · February 2003

I don't know that 'bluff' or 'lack of room to negotiate' are either necessarily so. The guy you're talking with may just not give a darn; as long as he's within his bank's policy, it may be no skin off his nose whether the deal is good for anybody or not.
My thought goes along with Car_Man; i.e. to climb the ladder. You might eventaully get to someone for whom profitability matters. Somewhere I read that lessors can insure against losses on leases; in which case, a dim bulb banker might figure he comes out better on a turn-in.
I still think taking the pics is a good idea. And reading your lease agreement to see if you have a mileage refund coming.

the_heidi · February 2003

Car_man,

I have negotiated a BMW 525 with an MSRP of $42370 down to a selling price of $40850, a residual of $26,445 and a money factor of 0.0017 for a monthly payment of $589 (includes Kansas taxes of 7.5%). How does this compare to the best I can hope to do? Can I expect this type of deal to hold? My current lease doesn't end until April but a $15 month savings makes it worth my while to buy early.

mitchs3 · February 2003

I am interested in leasing Jag x type, either 2.5 or 3.0 liter, can you give me the money factor and residual value for the vehicle, do they offer variable durations, 36 month or 48 months at 12,000 mi per yr.... Thanks

arh11 · February 2003

The consensus seems to be "speak to someone higher up". Should I call the same number that they give me (I would guess someone in the corporation is eager to sell to me, as they flood my mailbox!), and as for a supervisor, or do you suggest calling someone else?? If it makes any difference, the bank is Bank One.
Thanks!

CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

You're welcome, Vikd. I personally do not see any advantage to leasing a vehicle that has low residual values. Sure a vehicle with low residual value percentages will have a lower lease-end residual value making it less expensive to buy at the end of your term, but given the fact that many banks are willing to lower their vehicles' predetermined purchase option prices, this is hardly an advantage. Pretty much the higher the vehicle's residual values are, the better.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Hey the_heidi. BMW's February lease program is only scheduled to run through February 28th (today). As it currently stands, their base lease money factor for all 5-Series models, excluding the M5, is .00150 for up to 42 months. By using a money factor of .00170 for your deal, the dealership is essentially marking up BMW Financial Services' base factor and getting a kickback from them, adding additional profit to your deal without you knowing that they have done so. Of course, this analysis assumes that you are paying a security deposit on your car at lease signing. Some banks will waive their security deposit in exchange for a slight increase in the money factor that is being used to calculate their payments.

As far as this car's price goes, you were able to negotiate a slightly larger discount than Edmunds.com True Market Value price for this car, so you did fine.

Here is a link to a sample lease that BMW is currently offering on this car: 2003 BMW 5-Series Special Lease Offer. You can use it as a reference point in your negotiations. Also, I just calculated a sample lease payment for you on the exact car that you are interested in. According to my calculations, if you were to lease a 2003 BMW 525i (MSRP: $42,370 / Cap Cost: $40,850) through BMW Financial Services this month for 3 years with 12,000 miles per, your zero down, pre-tax monthly lease payment should be around $506.

Although it is difficult to predict what manufacturers will do with their future incentives and lease programs, I personally don't envision BMW's program on the 5-Series getting much worse in the next month or two. If I was in your situation with my lease scheduled to expire in April, I personally would wait a month or two before signing a new lease. There is no reason to waste those final two lease payments.

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CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Hi mitchs3. Here is the information that you are looking for. If you were to lease a 2003 Jaguar X-Type 2.5 through Jaguar Credit prior to April 30th for 3 years with 12,000 miles per, their base lease money factor and residual value should be .00118 and 51%, respectively. The corresponding numbers for an otherwise identical 4 year lease of this car should be .00169 and 44%, respectively. As far as the 2003 X-Type 3.0 goes, the 3 year 12k numbers for it should be .00076 and 52% and the 4 year 12k numbers should be .00129 and 45%.

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msp_guy · February 2003

Carman-
First, thank you for all of your help in determining rates/residuals, etc. I've locked in an order for a new BMW 330xi with a 36mo/12k mi lease using .0015/62%/$525 acquisition. The upfronts include 1st month, security, and license/registration fees. My question: How can I determine if they are padding the license/registration fees? The total upfronts are around $1700, which means that the lic/reg fees are in the $500-$600 range (after ~$540-$550 1st mo, $550-$600 deposit). Note: the range on the 1st month & security is because I haven't decided whether or not I'm going to roll the acquisition fee into the lease or pay it upfront (in addition to the $1700). I may also use BMW's multiple security deposit program, so those #'s could change a little.

Nevertheless, how can I determine what the REAL fees for lic/registration should be with the start of a new lease? I assume there are other, legitimate fees that are wrapped into that (besides just the fee for tabs).

Thanks again!

silvercrown · February 2003

Hi Car_man,

A friend of mine is looking to lease a car for 3 years, either 12k or 15k miles. She is leaning heavily toward a Pontiac Grand Am, but is also interested in a Nissan Altima 2.5S (my suggestion to her). Can you give me some information on lease deals for both of these vehicles? Rates, residuals, etc. for the terms listed above. She's planning to buy in a couple of weeks.

TIA
SilverCrown

bv73ms3 · March 2003

Hi, I just got my new 2003 Saab 9-3. Your advice about the money factor, residuals etc was right on the dot. As for the fees, they were different from the other dealers but I figured it would be even though one dealer was adamant that every dealer in Cali charged $600 for ad fees. Hahaha. My final price came out to $380 +tax with NO MONEY DOWN. I didn't pay an acquisition or security fee. They did charge me $495 for doc fee =P but I still got the car for $1000 under invoice! The only other fee they had was $120 prep and handling fee that was 'part of the invoice'. Still this price was the best in LA area and I really looked around. Thanks again!!

ncjudge · March 2003

Car_man,
I did read your reply about the February Saab 9-3 lease program, but I need the details for March. I would like the money factor and residual for the 9-3 Linear model for a 36 month/15k miles per year lease. Also, if you can, please give me the March incentive info on the 9-3.
Thanks a lot.

gteach26 · March 2003

Car man, for a Chrysler Gold Key lease on a Grand Cherokee Laredo 2wd 36 months the dealer is charging a $300 disposition fee at the end of the lease. The dealer says thay have no control over this fee and that it is a "Chrysler thing" ... is that true?

numeromano · March 2003

Car_man, can you provide the MF and Res % for a 36mo/15K/yr lease through Lincoln on a Lincoln Aviator Premium AWD with MSRP of $47,380. Do you also have factory to dealer incentives on this car or do I have to get that elsewhere?
Thanks.

rosen31 · March 2003

Car Man, Can you provide the money factor and residual for a 2003 Acura TL/TLS. Looking at 36 month lease either 12 or 15k per year.

Thanks!

topgun7 · March 2003

Hello car_man, I am looking to lease either an Accord LX 4 dr or a Civic EX 4 dr for 4 years (15k per year). What is the residual value for the accord LX and Civic Ex? If I use the invoice price of each of this vechicle and current Honda lease rate, what would be the monthly path look like for the 4 yr/15k per year lease look like? many thanks for your help.

CarMan@Edmunds · March 2003

Greetings to everyone who has questions about manufacturers' March lease programs. As you may or may not know, most manufacturers' February programs either expired on Friday February 28th or are scheduled to expire today Monday March 3rd. As a result I have not seen most banks' new lease programs yet. I suspect that I will have an opportunity to take a look at many banks' programs by the end of the week. Please feel free to re-post any questions that I have been unable to answer right now then. Talk to you soon.

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CarMan@Edmunds · March 2003

You're welcome, msp_guy. It is difficult for me to tell you whether the dealership that you are working with is marking up your state's license/registration fees. You may be able to find out more informaiton on this subject by visiting the Web site for your state's Department of Motor Vehicles or by calling your local DMV.

As a side note, BMW Financial Services' multiple security deposit program is a great way to lower your monthly lease payments. I know many people who have used this program and have been very happy with the results.

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CarMan@Edmunds · March 2003

Congratulations on your new car, bv73ms3! I am glad to see that everything worked out so well for you. Thanks for taking the time to come back and let us know how everything turned out.

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CarMan@Edmunds · March 2003

Hi gteach26. Many banks do indeed charge their lessees lease-end termination or disposition fees, so they are legit. However, I am not sure of Chrysler Financial's specific policy on this matter, but you may be able to find out by calling them directly or by visiting their Web site by clicking on the following link: Chrysler Financial. Also, if there is some sort of end of term fee associated with your lease, it should have been spelled out on your contract. Take a look at that document to see if it says anything about this matter.

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bottgers · March 2003

I sat down and added up the numbers for my situation. I'm currently leasing a '98 Intrepid which I leased new. The lease is about to expire, and I'm looking at buying a new Mazda MPV van. Though initially I thought this might not be a fair comparison, the sticker on the new Intrepid was right around $22K, while the purchase price of the MPV will be right around $21K (this includes sales tax, dealer rebates, and S-Plan pricing, which I qualify for), making the comparison fair. I think so anyway.

Intrepid

$329 per month X 60 months = $19740

Down payment = $3000

Over mileage payment = $1500

Total cost to me = $21540

MPV

$391 per month X 60 Months = $23460

Down payment = $0

Total cost to me = $23460

At first glance you might think the lease is a better deal, especially if you don't have to pay an over mileage charge. However, the show stopper here is at the end of the 60 month lease, I either have to turn the Intrepid in to the lease company, or buy it from them at a price of $7700, meaning I have no equity in this vehicle whatsoever. At the end of the 60 month loan on the MPV, I will own the vehicle, and it will still be worth several thousand dollars. Leases are a bad deal all around unless you own a business, or you just can't stand keeping a vehicle for more than 2 or 3 years.

gtom71 · March 2003

CarMan,

I hear you are a good source for leasing info. Would you know what BMW generally uses as a residual on the 325i, 325ci, 330i and 330ci. Also have these cars generally been selling at/above/below residual at lease end? Any info would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Gabe.

hicaira · March 2003

"Leases are a bad deal all around unless you own a business, or you just can't stand keeping a vehicle for more than 2 or 3 years."

You leased a car for 60 months and now you are dispensing lease advice? You paid $3,000 down on a lease and now are some lease-calc genius?

Sorry, but leases are a fine tool for many who simply do not want the headaches of owning a car past it's bumper-to-bumper warranty, do not drive all that many miles, or who have the availability to write off the depreciation. Unfortunately, leases get a bad name by many people who do not understand them, want to drive more car than they can really afford, or who sign on for 4 or more years with a lot of money down and drive over miles just to then complain about how they got taken.

On the other hand, at least you can speak from experience that a 60 month lease with $3,000 down for a used-car dog of a Dodge is generally a bad idea on every front.

HiC

icdchess · March 2003

Hi Car_Man
My secretary is torn between the new Beetle Convertible and the Mini Cooper. I was able to search for your residual values/money factors on the Volks, but I found nothing on the Mini.

She's looking at a base Mini (not the S)($19,995 manual trans.) and I would like to know what the current numbers are for 36, 39 and 48 months - 12,000 miles per. We're in New York.

She was told by the dealer that there's a 27 month lease that has even lower payments than the 36 month (just doesn't sound likely to me).

Thanks!
Steve

bottgers · March 2003

You're a preppy, aren't you?

hicaira · March 2003

What's a preppy?

HiC

colie74 · March 2003

Wow, been reading over all your advice and info, you are a huge help! I've learned alot from just reading your responses.

Curious to know what a good lease rate is for the Infiniti G35 (MSRP, 31K and some change). Also what is a good price to negotiate. The problem is, I want a manual trans and the dealers only get them in every so often. I don't mind waiting, but my experience is, is that they don't have to negotiate a car that will sell really quickly. So is anything in this situation working in my favor?!!!

Also, looking to lease for 48 months. I can afford $400, where could I start as far as offering what I could afford? $350?

Thanks
Nicole

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