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carlady/host
Anyway, as an incurable car buff who half hopes his '86 4Runner keels over so he can go car shopping again, I offer this:
Honda has no 5 door hatch or compact wagon. Advantage: VW. For those of us with people and stuff to haul around, a 2 door Civic, coupe or hatch, won't cut it. May I also throw in the notion that the upcoming Ford Focus (16 valve 140hp), as a hatch or wagon, could offer a combination of sport and utility (hee hee) that neither VW or Honda (or anyone?) could match...1998 European Car of the Year!
A Civic going happily on a 1.6L engine, and a Golf IV underpowered with a 2.0L are just not a fair comparison.
The surviving hatchbacks are evolving into two polarized markets. On one end: the El Cheapo Geo, excuse me, Chevrolet Metro microcars. The other: upscale 318ti and Golf IV Euro-mobiles.
VW may deny it, but Golf IV GTI in reality has lost the sharp and raucous pocket-rocket dynamics of the original GTI. AS powerful as the VR6 is, it is now more of a luxo-sporty mini-stationwagon. Somehow I get the feeling VW is chasing ex-GTI drivers upscale. Fine by me, because the suspension mods I used to think is "firm yet not harsh" now feels more like "punishing but won't quite send me to the chiropractor". Bravo, VW.
I have a 1986 4Runner. Stripped down, bare bones, beat the hell out of it-practical. I wish they had stayed that way. As a car buff, I really hate the way these vehicles have moved upscale (leaving me unable to replace a truck I actually use as a truck) and robbed the marketplace of some great cars. I do think that the pendulum will swing back, though. We all realize that the Subaru boom has a lot to do with the fact that no one REALLY wanted the truck part- just the room and rugged image. I think the whole thing will evolve into a segment of super-wagons within 5 years or so. Especially if we get a correction in gas prices. My underpowered toyota 22RE 4 banger that is so "grossly underpowered" (as my mom describes it) will, at least, be on the road while those 14mpg monsters sit in driveways...
As for the GTI, Ferry Piech made it quite clear he intends to take the entire VW line up market and slide Seat and Skoda in where VW used to reside- fat lot of good that does us in the U.S., though. The polarization you describe is worrisome. I hope the 2K Ford Focus is a catalyst for expansion in the affordabe and sporting compact segment. If u.s. buyers don't support that car, we'll have only ourselves to blame when the choice is a Civic available only in urban commuter guise (c'mon, honda! howabout an Si, for chrissake!?) and Golfs with so much "value added" standard features that a 4 door bases at 17k.
If the 4runner chokes...Focus wagon, here I come!
I'd like a Golf, too. But I'm out of the country until the fall. However, I'll need to buy as soon as I get back.
On the other hand, I also think Ferdinand Piech has performed nothing short of a miracle in turning VW&Audi around from the pitiful state they were in just a few years back. In terms of product quality, value and appeal, VW&Audi has once again become the market leader.
Well, all this growing has got to cause some pain. Restructuring can't be completed overnight. When supply catches up with demand, and it will, prices will soften. I want to buy a Golf also, but I'll wait till the 2000 model year (1.8T hopefully). Right after a new major model introduction is just not the right time to buy for a value shopper. This applies to any car. But, if your lease is up or your old car is shedding parts as we speak, then well...
Honda Civic is a nice car, and if it fits your target profile, by all means, go for it. But as I've said elsewhere in this forum, Golf and Civic have grown far enough apart through the year that about the only thing they have in common is that they are both hatchbacks.
Good luck.
The Audi A3 hatchback has the same problem.
Mazda's 323 hatchback, on the other hand, still has the old simple solution to turning the car into a delivery vehicle. It takes one two- fingered hand, which could also be in a cast or sprained, and about 15 seconds to accomplish with no strain or stretching. Really too bad the 323 HB is no longer being marketed in the US (which is where I'm going to have to buy soon). My old 323 was a great car. Economical, practical, and completely reliable. Too bad I sold it.
For some reason, though brands as odd as Lancia and as common as Ford were at the show, Honda didn't turn up. Does anybody have any idea what is involved in creating a flat surface in the hatch of the Honda hatchback?
Maggie
Since ABS is standard on the VW you avoid the salesman shuffle of "We only sell what we have" When ABS is not standard the salesman shuffle around and can never find or rarely find the ABS equipped car.
It is better to avoid an accident (via ABS) than have one and "survive" with an airbag.
AVAILABILITY
Check with car advantage.com and the mega dealers in LA. Since VW makes both a CA EPA certified car and a 49 state car, the Calif cars may be harder to find, I found some in Oregon but they are not Calif EPA certified but will, most likely pass the emmissions test (my 94 van passed although not CA EPA)
If you buy in Oregon and register in Calif then the DMV charges you an extra $300 to register in Calif plus the "use tax" and car license tax.
ANY NEW GOLF OWNERS OUT THERE THAT CAN GIVE US BUYERS SOME COMFORT WITH THE NEW 99 GOLF?
They have their fans, to be sure, but they appeal to very few.
My opinion on the Civic HB vs. Golf:
The new Golf/GTI is a really great car, but a Honda Civic hatchback way undercuts it on price. The GTI has standard equipment power locks, side airbags, and ABS, but there's a huge price difference. Also, the Civic hatchback gets 32 city/37 hwy with stick, whereas the Golf 2-dr 4-cyl gets 24/31. According to Car and Driver, the Civic HB "looks like a nerd's shoe". If you can afford to pay a few thousand dollars more for a safer, more fun economy car, the Golf is the way to go. But the Civic will probably have better reliability and cheaper maintenance.
Just had to comment on the above quote. Made me smile.
Resale on the Acura is so-so. Resale on the Jetta is much better. The Jetta is cheaper to repair,
and maintenance costs are lower.
The GTI with 4wheel discs will out perform the Honda. Honda is way over rated and an old design.
The new Accord coupes are bigger than Camaros.
Distributors? Maybe after 150,000 miles.
Volkswagen HAD to go to a long (but read the fine print) warranty because they were being blasted by Consumer's Reports and others for afwul reliability.
They had to so something in a desperate attempt to save their business!
I keep hearing the new ones are better. I'll be happy to modify my opinion of VW products if that proves to be the case and I guess time will tell!
Sorry...just couldn't read that without responding!
This can't be!!!
We are a two-car family: one 5-speed 1997 Jetta GLX (VR6) and one 5-speed 1996 Honda Civic LX. They are both *good* cars, but I would have to say that the Jetta is the *better* car. It handles better - more connected to the road, better steering response. And even with the VR6, it gets 31-32 MPG highway if treated with respect. The drawback is that it IS slightly noisier than the Honda (and I know we're not talking apples to apples here because of the difference in engines), but still more enjoyable to drive.
The sheet metal on the VW is several powers of ten better than the Honda, too. One push on the Civic door and you've got yourself a nice ding. Not so on the Jetta. This carries through in the way that the doors themselves act as they open and close. There is a harsh, cheap, clangy sound to the Civic doors as they close - complete with a little shudder. No similar characteristic on the Jetta. I wouldn't say this difference is due to a difference in body style; they are both 4-door cars.
Same with the trunk. The VW has sound deadening materials in the trunk, *including* some on the underside of the trunk hood. The underside of the Honda trunk is totally uninsulated, and doesn't even look like it was clearcoated. It, too, makes a nice tinny sound when it is closed. This defect in fit and finish lets a lot of noise into the car, unfortunately taking away the advantage the Honda has in a quieter engine.
Finally, there is the seating situation. I find the seats in the Honda to be low and unsupportive. They also don't elevate vertically far enough to suit my taste, and the process of getting in and out of the Honda in a dress is exasperating at best. ALL fabric sticks to that annoying velour interior (whatever happened to woven fabric interiors, Honda?) and the process is one of scrunching down (getting in) or rolling out. At 5'6" I don't consider myself to be terribly tall; it's just that the extreme slope of the front door opening makes things awkward.
Well, those are my comments on the continued VW vs. Honda debate. Hope these minor details, none of which you necessarily notice as you're in the rush of buying a car and driving it for 10-15 minutes or so, are helpful to someone.
Same for the VW - 36k miles, and no problems at all so far. Again, highway miles are the rule.
When the time for repairs does come, though, it will likely be much more expensive on the VW with that VR6 engine and associated powerplant jammed in the tiny front engine housing.
We are lucky enough to have two experienced non-dealer mechanics; one who has extensive experience with the European engines, and one who is a certified Honda mechanic working on his own; both their shop rates are much lower than the EXORBITANT $60+ rate charged by the VW dealer.
The Jetta is actually the sixth VW I have owned, preceded by a 1978 Rabbit, a 1981 Jetta, a 1984 Jetta, and a 1992 Passat. Only the Passat posed any problems at all; when it was just less than five years old I found out that the air conditioning condenser had rotted (maybe due to the fact that I rarely use A/C), and the fix was anticipated to cost at least $600. I traded it in, because at that time it had over 120,000 miles and I wanted something a little smaller and less dowdy looking. (Those 1992 Passats weren't things of beauty, if you know what I mean.)
That truck (made in Wilmington, PA - during the only 3 (? I think) year period VWs were ever made in the States) was an unmitigated disaster. Electrical problems galore, water pump that went at 20k miles, solenoid that went out, and a rusting habit that beat any Subaru or Ford of comparable vintage hands down.
However, I know someone else who has a 1980 Rabbit diesel truck, lovingly cared for and regularly serviced, and it has 130,000 miles on it. I have been thinking about buying it.
I am really confused, please help!
Rich
Not to mention fuel mileage that also exceeds the Civic (42-50 mpg). Not to mention superior handling and road feel... safety... etc.
It will cost more, but for a long term vehicular investment, you'll be more satisfied. I know I am (99 Golf GLS TDI).
FACTS:
I owned a '89 Golf 3 Hatchback which achieved 250,000 on one engine.
I owned 5 different 76' to 79' Hondas that in aggregate achieved 300,000.
MY CONCLUSION:
It really doesn't matter which car you have; some make it longer that others. So in general, I'd say maintain your car well and it *might* serve you well.
The Hondas couldn't take the abuse, but the VW could.
I don't know what expenses your employer will/will not cover.
One final thing to remember about the HX and the golf TDI is the fact that they aren't easy to find. The HX is one of Honda's best-kept secrets and few dealerships carry them. The VW diesel engine is just as rare. So, unfortuneately, this gives the dealer the upper-hand as demand may outweigh supply and force the buyer into paying MSRP and above (especially with the golf).
Hope this little run down helps some confused buyers out there (it sure isn't helping me...)
If anyone else has some really nitty-gritty stuff that may sway me and the rest to either Germany or Japan, I'm all eyes.
carlady/host
Those who have driven the TDI/auto seem to like it better than the stick because the auto does a much better job of keeping the engine at low rpm's than a human could with a stick. (The TDI doesn't have much power high up in the rev band, so it needs to be kept at low rpm for quick takeoffs. This goes against human nature, if you know what I mean.)
PRICE WHEN THE 2000 COME OUT?
Also had a vibration/squeak near the sunroof that was driving me nuts until yesterday when, in frustation, I rammed my hand against the sunroof controls. Viola! No more vibration! My only gripes: Engine revs very high at highway speeds and gas mileage is not that good (have an automatic). Perhaps it will get better as the engine breaks in. I like the cargo space a lot. Handles great. Excellent brakes.
Just discovered this site, and I feel like it was meant for me! Currently drive a (don't cringe, folks!) 1993 Ford Festiva GL (auto/air), she's a real creampuff. I really think she's done a great job, despite being a Toy Car. I've seen smaller cars in England, so I don't feel too bad. A couple of problems, mostly due to short city hops, rather than highway mileage: replaced muffler twice, entire exhaust system once, emergency brake "froze up"--once no biggie, second time major bucks because I drove it and wrecked the right rear tire (don't ask--lots of ice, thought I was dragging a chunk--d-uh!), and the odometer went on me at around 37k, had to have it replaced, $$$. However, for a $7000 car, I guess I can't complain, except for my own DUMB mistakes!
Sorry this is so long, but I am looking for a new car and I LOVE hatchbacks! Agree the demise of the Mazda 323 HB is lamentable--we went with a 1993 Escort Wagon (my husband's car, and he loves it), because the 323 was no longer available, although the two were on the same platform at the time (Mazda (323) Protege coupe was more $ than the Escort wagon!).
Questions:
1) What is the new Ford Focus supposed to be?
I test-drove a 1999 Escort sedan, and no legroom, cheap interior, loud engine, but decent handling (automatic--I am NOT A REAL DRIVER!)
So, is the Ford Focus supposed to be a new hatchback, and when is it due out?
2) Bottom-line time: Price, reliability, safety, and comfort (never mind the joy-ride), I need a safe, reasonably-priced commuter car that is either a hatch or a wagon--I drive a round-trip 110 miles a day to work on a two-lane road behind tractors and tractor-trailers. I have 3 dogs I like to cart around with me, and can't take the slobber on the upholstery in a sedan! Hatch's are great for dogcrates or just keeping the happy pooches out of my hair!
I am debating the NEW Golf GLS (automatic, air, cruise, 4-door) or one of the Honda Civics (haven't really researched them yet), with the same options. By the time I add on air, auto, and cruise (if available) on the Honda Civic, isn't it going to cost me what the new Golf GLS costs now with those options, close to $18,000?
Any guidance/advice/suggestions/opinions very welcomed! Thanks for your patience on reading this overlong missive!
bluedog63