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I don't recall the site where I saw this, but there are a few out there that help consumers determine a "fair price" for various makes of vehicles. Every manufacturer gives its dealers different amounts of holdbacks (if you're not familiar with dealer holdbacks, there is an explanation here on the Edmunds site) and for VW, it is 2% of total MSRP. The site I saw called an additional 3% a "fair price" for a VW -- but you add 3% to the dealer's invoice price, not MSRP. Your $17,000 is then about right. Good Fahrvergnugen!
Second, I just want to share with everyone what price I got on my 2000 Golf GLS w/Auto. I figured out the invoice price is $16,557 minus the 2-3% holdback for the dealers. I went into my local VW dealer and gave them my buying price of $16,800 and stood my ground. I figured they have at least a $500 margin if they sold this car to me at this price. Not counting the $199 "processing fee". Anyways, it took about 1/2 hour to get within $150 of my price but the dealer would not come any lower. I walked out.
Next day, they called me and agreed to $16,800. The car is a Golf GLS w/Auto.
With tax,tags,and title, my out the door price will be around $17,500. I haven't signed so I don't have the final numbers.
I think I got a decent deal on it. Hope this info helps others who are thinking of buying this car. I can't wait to get mine.
Jason
carlady/host
Each dealer is offering the extended 7 year 100K warranty for free, but that makes me think it is free to anyone anyway.
I would be happier with my Metros, though. I can live with manual steering and 13" tires. I also don't mind the stigma of being a Geo Metro owner because the darned cars keep going. I have 101K on my 1995 LSi and it is fine. It has been through half a dozen alternators and thanks to a truck running me off the road, I have a bent right lower control arm that eats up my right front tire every 6 weeks. The replacement part is $159.xx and the labor is prohibitive, so I would rather buy a $15 used tire every 6 weeks or so than do the work.
Also for $13,960, you could buy a nice used 1997 Toyota Camry CE/LE or Honda Accord DX/LX and have the most bland car ever, but it will last forever.
Your $13,960 will also purchase a three-to-five year old Volvo 850 or Audi A4, if safety is your concern.
And one more idea, if performance and looks are your MO, you could buy a late eighties Corvette convertible.
So a new car isn't always the best choice when a two or ten year old version of your dream car is within your reach.
But if you WANT a Civic, buy a new one. A $14K new 2000 Civic is a much better value than a $10K used 1997 Civic.
Anyway, if you havent driven the TDI, you are missing out on one of the best kept secrets around. They are available, but hard to find, at about $16,250.
A friend of mine bought a Civic HX, which is a higher model than a DX for 15,500 out-the-door. This price included everything, tax, tags, and title. His car was automatic, a/c, am/fm/casette, power everything. Your 15,000 sounds more than reasonable.
Thanks.
GQR
Based on what I read in Fred's forums, I've ordered a 2000 Golf GL TDI.
I am a potential first time VW Golf owner. I am
a bit concerned on the reliability of VW's in general (and especially the Golf).
My reason for this is the fact that VW only offers a 24 month/24,000 mile bumper to bumper warranty while Honda and Toyota offer an extra year of coverage. Why is this?
Also, are parts and repairs more expensive on VW Golfs vs. Toyota (Corolla) adn Honda (Civics)?
I also welcome any comments from VW Golf GL owners (1996-00 model years). Are you happy w/ your purchase? Have you had any problems?
I really would like to get the Golf GL. Compared to the conservative corolla and commonplace civic, it is the only car I get "excited" about. But the above issues make me wonder if I should go for the excitement (and driving fun) of a GL or stick w/ the boring corolla and/or civic.
Please help!
VW Golf GL.
Thanks!
I drive 30K miles a year for work. I bought my first new car, a 1998 VW Golf GL, in black. I loved it. I pined for one for years before I bought it. I read Consumer Reports, Edmond's, etc. I wanted a VW!!
Nine months later I traded it in for a '99 Honda Civic DX. Yes, I may have took a bit of a beating - Hondas can be pricey - but I had no choice. I felt I needed reliable transportation and the VW was turning out to be pricey. Here are some problems I had with it. Keep in mind though, after all of this - I miss my VW. My Honda is boring. I'm so torn!
My VW had switches falling off in my hand; and believe me, I babied that car. The check engine light kept going on and the dealer said this would happen every 15 to 30k miles due to the humidity. They replaced the distributor, the rotor, and the starter!!! OUCH! Had it not been under warranty it would have cost me a bundle. The dealership was VERY nice though I have to say (Concours Motors - I recommend them highly) and the repairs were quick and the parts were in stock. The check engine light kept coming on, though, and it was scaring me. After owning three Hondas which NEVER had a problem, I was concerned.
So now I have a Honda. My Civic has NOT been without problems though people!!!!!!! Squeaky belts which were fixed after three trips to the dealership, bad fit 'n finish in the interior, stripped bolt on a hardware piece on the door which rattled something awful. Also, I have a friend that had major weather stripping problems with his Civic.
What's the answer here? Do I miss my Golf? Hell yes - in retrospec, I should not have traded it in on what I consider to be a boring car. My decision was irrational, I think. The Golf was MUCH more fun to drive and had more features for the money. Although the fuel milage on the Civic is better, keep in mind you also have a smaller tank so you're fueling up just as often.
The grass is always greener on the other side. I believe that my VW Golf would have served me well had I kept it; but that's easy to say now that my Honda, at 30,000 miles, has been very reliable (lately?!). But VW's are more than "point A to point B". They're a love affair. One which I miss a great deal. My Honda will be traded in for a new Golf or Beetle in three years.
Last words (finally) - life is too short not to go with something if you REALLY love it. If that's the case and you have your eye on a VW, then who cares if you have to fix it once in a while. I wish I still had mine!
VW are great cars, if you want something fun to drive and a little more stylish. Their problem is their service. If you get one without any problems, then you are set and the car will be great. If you have a problem, the dealerships will be very unhelpful in diagnosing and fixing it.
My girlfriend has had some problems with her '98 Golf (actually one reoccuring problem), but I drive it every chance I get. I can't even tell you why I like to drive it so much, but i can't get enough of it!
'98 GOLF RADIOS (and maybe Jetta) HAVE A KNOWN PROBLEM WITH THE AM RADIO AND THE TAPE PLAYER.
there is a huge backorder on replacements
My girlfriend's tape player just stopped working recently (she puts in a tape it says side A, then it switches to side B and then it says TAPE ERROR and pops the tape out). I took her car to VW to check this out and they said they have to change the radio and it might take a while because they have them on backorder. I asked if I could have the info on the radio to see if someone else has one in stock and he gave it to me. After checking with 3 or 4 dealers, one of them finally told me this is a known problem and there is a backorder for the entire US that may take weeks. I called VW service and they could offer no help or estimate as to how long it will take. Also, the dealerships don't seem to be very open about this problem.
1. last longer
2. have fewer major maintenance problems as it ages
and the civic's dashboard is much lower, giving a better view out the window.
the GTI would be nice, but too expensive.
However, that was the old Golf, the new one may be better than the Civic.
The Golf and Civic seem to attract different types of drivers. And since there are so many different drivers, it's nice to know we have a choice.
carlady/host
The Golf on the other hand(2000 Golf GLS with auto) looked sporty and drove sporty even for an auto. It felt quite upscale for a car at that price. I drive a Miata as a daily driver and the Golf captured the sporty feel of my car but while being a heck of a lot more practical. Love the trunk space with and without the seats folded. The only problem I had was that if I go to Vegas most people are doing 90MPH easy and this car above 80MPH revs a little high and makes a bit more engine noise, but I guess you could keep it at 80MPH or listen to the radio. The dealer said $500 over invoice is OK. So I may go pick up my green Golf this weekend.
I got a '97 DX htbk new with A/C for $12.5K, about $400 over dealer invoice. You can easily get a DX htbck today for around $13K with A/C.
Of course the Golf GLS has antilock brakes and 4wheel discs, antiroll bars, 15" steel rims and cassete (what no CD?). You get what you pay for.
The Golf handles a little better although nothing spectacular (.78g in the skidpad) but it's heavy and way underpowered with its 115hp engine.
It weighs over 400lbs more than a Civic which gets 32-37mpg vs. 24-31 in the Golf! The Civic
5-sp is also considerably faster due to its weight (8.7s vs. 10.4s 0-60). It depends what you 're looking for and what you can afford. There is a $3-4K difference in the 2 cars. If your commute is long like mine, I 'd say get the Civic because it will last forever, will be cheaper to maintain in the long run, and gets excellent mileage.
I have 86K miles on mine and have only done a minor tuneup on it and replaced the front brake rotors & pad ($200 w/labor). To enhance handling, I 've upgraded the 14x5" steel rims to light 14x6" Borbet type-T alloy wheels with Dunlop D60-A2 195-60 tires after the original tires got worn out (at about 40K mi). Handling has been increased dramatically and it still has a nice smooth ride.
I average 34-35mpg and still cruise at 80mph on the highway. With a Golf you 'll probably avg. 28mpg. With the alloy wheels I think my Civic looks better than a Golf and not as boxy.
It all depends on what you can afford and which car appeals to you. If I were in the market for a $16-17K hatchback (GLS price range), I 'd get the Cougar V6 5-sp which stickers for about $18K.
and have some fun at the same time.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
But 2700+lbs? That's too heavy IMO resulting in poor gas mileage comparable to that of a big 4 or small 6cyl, & slow acceleration unbecoming a
$16-17K car. I mean what car does 0-60 in over 10sec. these days? A Geo Metro maybe..
I kinda like the new VW VR6 which has ample power & torque but for $23K there are a lot of other cars that come to mind like Integra GSR & Celica GT-S hatchbacks that are lighter, cost less, & get better gas mileage.
Again, that's just my opinion because my commute to work is such that I prefer a 4cyl. car & gas mileage becomes very important. Even in my '99 Integra GSR I average 30mpg with 90-95% highway driving (the Civic is my daily driver though)
I totally agree though that the new 4 cyl. Golfs are in a different class than a Civic not only pricewise but for the additional amenities & safety features they offer.
I believe VW has placed the Golf in a very strategic position between the $13K basic transportation Civic hatchback and the more powerful (140hp) $19K+ Acura Integra htcbk and that 's the right place to be..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
carlady/host
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Cars like Focus, Echo, & yes, the last of the Civics hopefully won't be a dying breed, these cars are fun, handle well , give respectful mileage & I think they all look good. The aftermarket will do these cars right. My only problem, is Echo or Focus. Yes, you heard right. I want a "sub 20k" car thats fun & ..ok cute.. I think Focus & Echo are really great cars. So, don't give up, there are still some good choices for us!
Yes, I agree that the cost of the Golf is about right because of all the nice standard amenities & safety features (ABS, etc) you get. I never argued that.
I have to correct you though. You were grossly off on the weight of the '90 & '95 Civic hatchbacks. My Civic hatchback weighs 2258lbs and the '90 Si htbk was one of the lightest cars and barely 2200lbs! that's why it was quick.
I know, my friend owned one and another close friend of mine owns a '93 DX hatchback (same as '95) and it weights slightly over 2200lbs too.
We know the weight of our cars because here in NY it's right on your registration! but you can look up old R&T or C&D magazines if you don't believe me.
Anyway, I guess there are other hatchback choices out there but I would 've liked to stick with the Civic name/family. Oh well, all good things come to an end.. :-)
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
I think they should at least offer a bumper to bumper warranty for at least 3yrs like everyone else.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
Test drive a Civic EX 5sp. (which is what you should be comparing the Golf or Jetta to) and you 'll see a difference between it and the Accord.
Anyway, I like VWs in general, especially the GTI VR6 but 2 of my friends had an '89 and a '91 Jetta and they both had a lot of problems. The '89 Jetta blew a head gasket at around 110K miles so he paid a lot of money to have it fixed. About a year later the engine ceased at 135K mi.
But it's not just that. Both of them were having a lot of other problems after 70-80K mi. it seemed. The other guy with the '91 sold it with just under 100K mi. just after he fixed a leaky power steering pump and a long list of other things that I remember cost him $1,100! (this was in late '97). He bought a new Prelude VTEC and he loves it but that's in a different class.
I guess you could say I have VW-phobia now although I 'm sure a lot of the problems in earlier models would not be inherent in the new ones.. but..then I visited the Beetle topic a few days ago and there are many new GLX owners whose cars are in the shop after only a few days of ownership! Some just died or the service engine light came on and experience performance loss (due to the alarm..) I know the turbo Beetles are new models but there seems to be quite enough of them. How many others are there that don't participate in this forum? Anyway I 'm not trying to put them down. I 'm just scared to buy one you could say. I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a GTI VR6 but my Acura Integra GSR gives me plenty of satisfaction for now and my Civic.. well that's just basic transportation that was well worth the $12.5K I paid and so far in 3yrs it has rewarded me with 87K trouble free miles and will continue to do so up to around 200K mi. (that's when my friend sold his '92 Civic and the buyer still has it a year later) when I 'll sell it - and still get a few bucks for it.
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
carlady/host
I have a '97 Civic DX htcbk 5-sp. and in 0-60 acceleration & 1/4 mi. it's faster than your 10s turbo diesel Golf. The Civics are light cars and are not slow. My car weights 2250lbs (compared to 2700-2800lb Golfs) and it's been tested at 8.7sec 0-60. I 've put slightly wider alloy wheels on it with bigger higher performance tires, 14x6" alloys and 195-60 Dunlops D60's HR rated tires and the car is now a lot more fun to drive. The ride is still comfortable because I stayed with 14" diameter (but 1" wider) and handles much better.
I will occasionally do 115mph (when I 'm in the racing mood) and I still get 32-33mpg after I 've been racing it all day long. Normal driving I average 35mpg mixed city & hway.
I have 88K mi. on it now and only had a blown speed sensor (speedometer stopped working) replaced which was covered by the warranty.
All I 've done is a front brake job and a tune-up: plugs, wires, distrib. cap & rotor & air filter. All for $200.
Civics can be fun to drive. They can be revved high and with some better tires will outhandle a Golf. Look at the skidpad #s. The Golf is only
.01g better! Nothing good tires can't fix..
I 'm not saying the Civic handles as good as the GTI but it's comparable to the average or base Golf.
Overall the Golf may have better road feel but look at the price difference too.
I would not compare the Civic with the Geo Metro because I don't think the Metro can go much faster than 90mph.. and the Civic has a lot more room than a Metro! The Metro is a true econo-box and gets in excess of 40mpg.
Mitsubishi Mirage? yes, that's a better comparison.
But for the price of a base Golf ($15-16K, forget GLS that's $17K & up) I 'd get the Civic EX coupe that comes nicely loaded, has antiroll bars for better handling and 127hp compared to 115hp in the Golf and still weighs 300lbs less than a Golf, not to mention gas mileage and resale value.. but it's not a htbk, so for now I 'll stay with my DX hbk (and my Integra GSR which more fun than even GTI VR6).
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
street races where I have yet to see a Honda of any sorts beat a VW with a 2.0 or the all mighty VR6 under it's hood. Please let me reassure you that I'm not trying to knock down Honda's, my girlfriend is trying to buy a 99 model EX, (which has no antiroll bar on it), that I plan to do some aftermarket work on just as soon as I finish with mine, which basically consist of a computer upgrade that will boost my horsepower and torque up to around 30-40 percent. I'm actually tickled to death that she's getting a Civic, because this fun and harmless dispute will continue at our home. Actually it has already began!!!!
Diesel engines are not meant to be fast but reliable and get good gas mileage. And don't believe everything aftermarket manufacturers advertise. No chip can give you 30-40% more HP unless you supercharge your motor or go with turbo, but you already have one!
The fact remains that a Golf TDI weighs almost 2800lbs and needs every one of those 155ft-lbs to get it moving! The Si weighs 2600 has 77% more HP and it's in the low 7's 0-60. Your car could never do that given that it's turbo charged already. The one roadtest I saw on the TDI it went to 60 in 10.1sec, about the same as the regular 115hp Golfs. Both Civic Si and Golf TDI cost the same, about $17.9-18K. I 'd take the Si any day because it handles a lot better and it's much faster, not to mention reliability and resale value..
I beat regular Golfs at the light all the time so I don't know what you mean by you 've never seen any Hondas beat the 2.0L VWs at street races.. What are you saying that they 're faster than a 140hp Integra or 160hp Si, or 170hp GSRs? give us a break! The VW VR6 maybe. It's a fast car but a GSR is very very close to it. With some sipmle bolt-on mods like headers & exhaust and a cold air intake a GSR can beat the V6.
Look at the recent Car & Driver article where they compared 7 coupes/hatchbacks and the GSR came in 4th ahead of the GTI V6.
My Civic hatchback weighs 2250lbs and at 8.7s 0-60 it's 1.4 sec. faster in 0-60 than a '99-00 Golf
That's a big difference! I had a '90 Geo Storm w/95hp that was a 10sec car to 60 and it was a lot slower than my Civic htbk.
As far as mods, sure you can make the Golfs faster but there is a huge market for Honda performace parts too..
You 're wife is making a very wise choice to buy a Civic EX. I hope she won't get an automatic because it does the car a lot injustice and robs it of power.
Why did you buy a 90hp car if you were looking for performance? I bought a GSR for performance. I wouldn't waste my money on mods if I were you unless the car feels unbearably slow to you. I 'd upgrade the suspension first. It's still a diesel and not the same as gasoline engines.
If you do get 30-40% more power out that diesel engine (which I doubt very highly) you will run into serious reliability problems, warped head, camshafts and even bent lifters, etc. You cannot give an engine 30-40% more power without doing some engine mods to reliably handle the extra power. Even GSRs with superchargers start having engine problems after a year or two if no other mods were done to the motor.
240hp (40% power increase from SC) I think is a little too much even for a VTEC engine to handle, it's still a 1.8L motor..
'06 Civic LX coupe
'11 BMW 335i coupe xDrive
'13 Honda Accord sedan (wife's car)
My girlfriend currently drives a 1997 Dodge Neon that has 130 or 132hp 2.0 16 valve engine. Sure it has more hp than the Golf but it still wont out run one. In regards to the TDI and aftermarket part, check out AutoBahn Designs web site at www.abdracing.com. Take a look at the 1999 TDI golf they did which has 130hp and over 180 ft/lbs. of torque that to this day is still very reliable and still gets around 47-50mpg. The hp rating does include an intake and exhaust combo which with out it the Golf would be at 115hp. That's enough to still beat any Civic. I'll find you the dyno chart which supports those figures or actually if can read German check out www.chiptuning.com. Over there diesels with monster hp and torque are an everyday thing. Volkswagen uses a diesel Golf they call Demon to race with. It has 275hp and 325 ft/lbs of torque. I'm sure they spent a pretty penny on it but it's still the base platform TDI engine! Also I honestly HAVE NOT SEEN A CIVIC OR INTEGRA BEAT A VW at the races, and you can hear why when your there. Those guys in the Civic's and Integras are still in second gear by the time the VW folks are hitting the top of third. Back in 98 at the Ennis Nopi drag wars it was a normally aspirated GTI that took home first place beating everything in it's class which included TURBO HONDA'S and TURBO ACURA'S.
I don't really care about performance, but do care about a "fun" drive and a stylish look. My main concerns are price, maintenance and mileage. I can drive a manual or automatic, but prefer an automatic. : )
Any advice appreciated!