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I definitely want AWD and safety is very important to me. The fact that the GLX has additional air bags is almost swaying my decision. Doesn't it bother some of you that the VDC is lacking "the curtain?" I'm also kind of disaapointed that the VDC doesn't have a tiptronic type trans.
When I think about the reliability and the minimal ground clearance of the GLX I go back to square 1 and start thinking about the VDC again. I've been debating this issue for almost a year now and my wife has become pretty much under the impression that I'll never make up my mind.
Anyone really put the 2 to the test? Wet/extreme conditions that would cause the VDC to come on? Is it reasonable to consider the VDC system as a safety feature that the GLX lacks?
Did any of you tall drivers make your decision yet?
PS - I also began entertaining the idea of the CRV. I currently have an 88 accord and have only good words to say. 13 years/155K and nothing but routine maintenance! I hope I could get the same out of a GLX or VDC.
Btw, if you're trying to decide between a Station Wagon and the Honda CRV, you may also want to post a message in our Station Wagons vs SUV discussion. This discussion is also linked to our the SUV board, so you'll be able to solicit opinions from participants on both boards. Good luck with your decision. ;-)
Revka
Host
Hatchbacks / Station Wagons / Women's Auto Center Boards
I am coming from a 1992 Honda Prelude to either a Passat Wagon, a Subaru H6 based wagon. The Volvo XC or Audi Cross Country are nice but more than I care to spend.
I am also 6 foot 4 inches -- you have an inch on me!
After much deliberation, I plan to go with the Subaru when I buy later this spring.
Here is why:
Pro Subaru:
- Reliability is ranked higher than VW.
- Parts availability is better. My friend cracked up her Passat and it was 6 months before all the parts came in due to German export. She was without a car for that period. The Subaru are made in Japan (power train) and Indiana (everything else). Parts seem to be less of a problem.
- Repair cost - generally higher for VW and Audi than Subaru.
- More for the money. An LL Bean H6 Wagon has just about everything the GLX 4 Motion does and can be has an Edmunds TMV of about $28k. The GLX 4 Motion is $31k TMV.
- Availability -- Passat wagons are kind of rare and dealers tend to not deal on them. It is easier to get what you want with a Subaru because supply is better -- at least around here in Central Ohio.
- Driving experience -- I test drove both cars back to back and was surpised the Subaru was quieter and felt better on the Highway.
That said, there are some plusses in the Passat column that may sway you:
- Better front passenger seat leg room -- important if you are not always going to be driving.
- 4 year warranty instead of 3 years. But Subaru Powertrain is 5 years I beleive.
- Better style - subjective.
- Better interior materials.
- German built - still counts for something.
In the end, concerns about VW reliability and cost of repair and the FUN driving experience the Subaru gave when I took it out in a snowy parking lot swayed me to the Subaru.
Good luck! -- JN
It used to be 2 year bumper to bumper and 10 year powertrain on vw.
Now it is 4 year bumper to bumper and 5 year powertrain.
Right?
No way the doors are tinny sounding on the VDC. This car is very solid, but people can often hear what they want to hear.
Mike
Bill
The Passat is still a fine car, just want to make sure Subaru gets a fair shake in the comparo. :-)
Stephen
That is just statistics though. You can get a good car or a bad car from any manufacturer, but from my experience, design flaws will almost always show up if you keep a car long enough.
Mike
Mike: Good point. One can get a bad car from any mfg. The data just helps the decision making process and is only one of many criteria for most folks.
Stephen
just like going from point A to point B with an assumption that their car is more reliable. Buy the car you you like the best. You can repair a car that's more fun to drive but you can't make a trouble free car into something it's not. That's how I made my decision... Buy the car you like the best...If that's a Subie... go for it.
BTW: In Canada, Subaru has one of the highest loyalty ratings from the CAA. Over 90% of Subaru owners will buy a Subaru again. I don't think they would achieve that rating if they weren't reliable. Consumer Reports rates Subaru above average for reliability.
Japan churns out some of the most focused drivers' cars on the planet. Honda, Mazda and Toyota currently make the most focused roadsters you can buy (compared to BMW Z3, Audi TT, Mercedes SLK which are more just highway cruisers than raw sportscars). Meanwhile, all current VW's have suspensions that are an insult to the original GTI's (read: way too compliant/sloppy feeling). And cars like the Subaru WRX handle better and accelerate faster than cars from BMW and Audi costing 40% more (in the last S4/330xi/WRX shootout in Car and Driver magazine) I own both an Audi A4 and WRX so I can attest to that. The Lexus IS300 is a sharper handling car than BMW 3 series for less money (and yes, I've driven both and can attest to that also)
Anyway, generalization about German and Japanese cars is not very useful for this topic, especially statements that *imply* that real drivers only buy German.
constant & continuing opening and closing of the
Driver's door that is frameless, will turn it into
a shuddering, rattling, windy portal...
would do the trick. The past few posts I have said to buy what you like the best. Test drive then buy what floats your boat. I found your post to be enlightening and informative and I do that you for that. I will be waiting for your response with bated breath. Hear from you soon eh?
On the reliability department, I believe the Subaru will have it all over the VW. This is just based on personal experience with VW's and long term reliability ratings (CAA, Edmunds and CR). I still hear horror stories from my old VW circle about some of the problems that current VW owners have to deal with. With Subaru, much less.
Personally, I'd take the V6 4Motion Passat over the Outback H6 VDC from a purely driving point of view AND lease it so that I don't have to deal with potential reliability concerns down the road. If I were to keep a car for the long term, a base (but well equipped) Legacy GT wagon would be the ticket over the 1.8T Passat wagon. I think that drives/looks great and is more bang for the buck.
The trick is to know yourself and whether as much as you love the car now you are going to keep it a long time.
Edmunds posted an article earlier this year analyzing the financial wisdom of buying new, leasing or buying used.
Financially - taking all costs into consideration, buying used cost the least, then buying new, then leasing.
The best situation is to get to a point where you own a trouble free car, no monthly payments, and little in the way of maintenance costs.
I have not had a payment on my 1992 Honda Prelude for 5 years. It has had no costs beyond gas and scheduled service for 10 years. I am convinced it could go another 5 years no problem. Looks great, no rust. Drives great -- still fun. Only problem is that as a 2 seater it is no longer size appropriate for my wife and I.
I am looking to repeat this with a little more spacious sporty wagon. I love the way the VW drives but I think I have a better chance at this with a Subaru Outback wagon.
Nobody goes to a Maintenance and Repair board to talk about how their car ISN'T malfunctioning.
Consumer Reports LOVES the Passat, btw. Any time they talk about cars they gloat about the Passat.
I helped a friend buy a new car. We looked at the Volvo V70 XC, the Subaru Outback VDC, and the Volkswagen Passat 4Motion.
The heinously over-priced Volvo was quickly thrown out. The VDC was OK. The interior felt really cheap and the seats were so-so. The exterior design looked a little too American. The handling and ride were fine.
However, the Passat 4Motion stood out for its use of high-grade materials and ergonomics in the interior, supportive seats (she has been through multiple plane crashes and thus has an extremely sensitive back), and sharp design, as well as more usable cargo space and more safety features (and features in general). It also outhandled and outrode the Subaru, in our experience.
Not to knock Subarus, but they aren't exactly known for making good-looking vehicles. The WRX is an incredible performer which is masked behind a car which looks like an angry Neon rear-ended by an IS 300 sportcross. Yuck.
Considering the Passat gets above-average reliability ratings, the choice was pretty clear to us. She's the happy owner of a Passat, has had it 9 months now without trouble, and still raves about it every time I talk to her.
FWIW, I own a 97 A4 (cousin of Passat) and based on that experience, it doesn't approach the reliability of any of the various Hondas/Mazdas that I've owned (not to mention that parts are hideously expensive).
If you go to CR site (and are a subscriber) the current reliabilty ratings ('00) are even better than the the previous years - all 'red' solid or half filled circles, no open or black circles.
As for the whole reliability issue, yes historically Subarus have been better than VW's. But when people talk about Passats being "worse" they make it seem as if every other Passat being sold is a lemon! If that were the case, you would certainly hear about in the news and it wouldn't be getting the praise from all the reviewers (including those that host this site). Yes there will be a small percentage that will have problems -- every make will have them. Case in point my 2 year old Passat has been great, with no problems (knock on wood). This is in contrast to my '94 Honda accord that has recurrent problems with HVAC and electrical systems.
I'll get off my soap box now...thanks for hearing me out.
George
I chose a country road that had some twisty sections and was surprised at how poorly controlled the ride, handling and steering of the Passat was in comparison to the Audis and my recollection of the WRX.
I "controlled" these rides by driving my current car (a Ford Focus sedan) along the same route. Its steering, handling and ride seemed better than the Passat but clearly inferior to the others.
I was kind of surprised by this since I thought the same engineering approach was used in both Audis and VWs. The salesman mentioned that the Passat doesn't have an optional sport suspension.
Steve
One thing to watch out for is the bushings in the Passats. My 97 A4 uses the same suspension setup and because the bushings are not serviceable, it can mean a costly replacement down the road. Next month I am replacing both the lower control arms, straight arms, bushings, C-links due to a worn bushing. It was supposed to be a $2000.00 (Cdn) repair, but after I complained to Audi about the poor design (and the fact that this is a common complaint), they are willing to do it for $1100.00. They claim that this is not that unusual (my car only has 45000 miles on it). Newer Passats may not have this problem anymore but I'd be wary of it (supposedly, the bushing material has been revised 5 times from what I hear on Audiworld so you figure they MUST have resolved it by now).
Anyway, as I said, the only way I'd buy another VW/Audi is if I leased it and got rid of it after 4 years. Four years of free maintenance with Audis and then the after warranty repairs is someone else's problem.
Well said....
I'm sorry, but my opinion is very bit as valid. Your defense is that Subaru's are ugly? You said "I'm ashamed of driving it in public"???? Who's the one with issues? Insecurity is something that can be addressed for $200/hr at my local clinic.
Reality check here.
I am being fair. These are my opinions. If you don't agree with them, fine. But I do *own* an Audi, and I've owned it for five years. I am speaking for my experience as a former VW fan (yes, I owned a Corrado). I've driven VW products for the last nine years, is that not sufficient enough for me to comment on reliability and the way they drive????? Suspensions in VW are tuned toward too much comfort. Is that not a valid statement? I'm sorry, but just about every magazine comments on that and agrees with me.
Bushings in my car require a $2000.00 job after 45000 miles. Check NHTSA database and Audiworld. Premature control arm replacement is a known fact. How is that for superior German engineering? If you don't want to listen to the facts, that's fine, ignore me and you don't have to read my posts.
Summation: I can alter my car and make it handle with less body roll and more feel for the road. But at this stage of my life I opted for a smoother ride and I still have a decent looking car. Not the best looking car on the road but one I don't mind being seen in. I could have bought a Subaru and softened the ride a little bit and added a few touches but I would still have a car that I'm not crazy about the looks of. I prefer the looks of the Passat and I could change a few things to make it ride stiffer. When I bought the Passat I felt the same way as when I bought my BMW. Needed a break from the econobox look. Your Subaru is a fine car but the looks just reminded me of an econobox. I'm not saying that is good or bad---just not the look I wanted at this time. Wouldn't it be ironic if down the road if you had more problems with you Subaru than I have with my Passat? But then we'll never know. I don't think you would post any negative results. Just for the record... The Passat wasn't my first choice. I wanted a BMW wagon but don't care much for the local BMW service department. I have had less trouble with the various VW service departments.
A client of mine who runs an insurance company told me that the 2002 Passat is a safer car than other cars like Camry, Honda and Subaru. I drive a lot of highway miles so that was important to me. The Subarus and Camry are also very good for safety.
As per usual I will be waiting for your pointed response with the usual bated breath...
Reality Check: You take this stuff too seriously and too personally. You can't even tell when somebody is messing with you so lighten up!!! :-)
Happy Motoring and good luck with your Subie.
I never claimed that Subarus are beautiful. But I'm certainly don't really care what other people think about my bullfrog looking WRX. I actually like it, and you can't claim my tastes are that bad, I like the looks of VW's/Audi's and BMW's also (especially cars like the A6 and 3 series)
As for unreliability, I firmly believe, based on my experience and other people's, that VW's are still less reliable than some other brands. The difference may be small and a crapshoot, but on average, the number of people I know that have bad experiences with VW's exceed those with Toyotas by a large margin. Given that they do produce some wonderful driving cars, I tell people that you have to take some good with the bad when you choose a VW and that you may be faced with more frequent and expensive repairs than say a Honda. My own personal experience with VW's show this, and it's fair to say that those expecting Honda appliance reliability may be disappointed.
so really now, what's more important, how much time a car spends in the shop or what it looks like, given a choice? i guess the choice depends on what's most important to you and how much $ you have. i'd take the repair-free car anyday.
I do think informed decision making is the best variety.
As long as folks know going in what each brand's reputation is for reliability and driving fun, then they can make an informed decision.
Whoever it was who said the WRX sport wagon looks like a Dodge Neon rear ended by a Lexus IS300 Sport wagon had me rolling over here! And that is the car I hope to buy very soon!
In fact I like that description so much that when I am greeted with the next blank stare when I name the car, that is how I will described it!
Bullfrog is a nice description too!
LOL
I have utmost respect for all German cars, but my opinion of their reliability has gone down due to first hand experience. The one thing German cars will always have is that they are foremost a premium driving/ownership experience. You can tell that they put a lot of love into their designs, I think sometimes they go overboard but that's because they are designed by engineers, not brand-managers. Reliability aside, I'd be happy to own any of the current crop of VW's/BMW's/Mercs/Audis. There are lots of Japanese cars that bore me to death, but thankfully, ever Janpanese brand has their share of high-desirables: like the WRX, IS300, S2000, Miatas, GS400 etc, all cars that break the mold of Japanese appliances that most of North America like to buy, cars that were designed with the more enthusiast oriented market.
A little word up on the VW reliability issue (and I refer this advice to myself on occasion when my auto passion runs amuck), driving passion does not in and of itself equal reliability. This is one statement I would use to sum up VWs in general.
Stephen
comfort=volkswagon
sportiness=wrx
I have a dilemma. I have narrowed my search down to three (3) vehicles. All of them are top or near-top choices in their class.
Here's my criteria for what I need:
1.) I drive between 25,000 and 35,000 miles per year. One or two 200 to 400 mile days, then in town driving for the remainder of the week.
2.) I usually keep my vehicles rather than trade them in after a few years.
3.) I am 6'2" tall, and I have a wife and two (2) children that are 6 and 8 years old.
4.) I don't want to go over $ 29,000 in spending because I have another vehicle that may have to be replaced in a year or two.
5.) I will often use the full cargo space of these vehicles and I will also use it as a family car and to take my family on long trips.
Here's what I have to choose from:
1.) '02 Volkswagen Passat Wagon V6 (Probably a GLX because I can't find any GLS V6 models in Florida)
2.) '02 Toyota Highlander V6
3.) '02 or '03 Subaru Forester ('03's are supposed to have a lot of changes for the better)
Need help deciding, any comments are appreciated.
Thank Bunches, Dave ;^)
- Highlander not available with manual transmission if that's important to you. Depending on drivetrain, either Passat or Subaru's offer manuals.
- I'd suggest the Subaru or Toyota for long term reliability (my opinion). VW's seem to be more iffy in terms of reliability (often a point of dispute here in this forum but my experience is that there are more reports of problems with VW's)
- The Passat, Legacy or Outback wagon is more fun to drive than a car-based SUV like the Highlander. But if you have to haul lots of stuff (big trips), the extra versatility of the Highlander can't be beat. I think the Passat or Legacy would be the largest car I would need though even with two kids.
Last weekend went car-shopping with a friend, and test-drove Highlander v-6 awd, no leather, no sunroof. The sticker on it was over 29K ( BTW, the dealer was asking 35K for top-of-the-line Higlander - not too far from RX-300!). IMHO, it's overpriced (even though they would probably come down, i don't beleive that it would be by much). I expected typical Toyota comfy ride (especially it being based on Camry), and was utterly disappointed. The car seemed jiggly and jumpy compared to my OB. Interior parts fit good, but the materials and overall design looked VERY cheap (bordering on primitive) - would be more appropriate in, say, Corolla, then in a vehicle priced over 25K. The positives are more room than OB and alleged Toyota reliability. Overall, I was underwhelmed after reading all these Higlander glowing reviews.
---Now on the serious side...
Talk to people who own the vehicles you are interested in. NOT online but real people you come across during your day and see what they say. Then go and test drive the cars and see what car puts a smile on your face and buy it!
Warp has his biases and so do I. I prefer German cars and don't like the way Japanese cars look or drive with few exceptions. Warp on the other hand loves the handsome look of Subarus and prefers the way they ride. Just for the record I bought a 2002 Passat V6,lux,leather,five speed stick in November... and don't regret it! Bark, if you are a young guy you might like the Subarus better and if you are a little older you might prefer the Passat. My guess is you will either buy a Passat or Outback and leave the Highlander to some soccer mom... Enjoy...Warp good to see you survived the winter...
Stephen